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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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Merits/Demerits of Reformed Theology VS. Jehovas Wittnesses.

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  • #61
    Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
    It means that God is not a respecter of persons...
    Acts 10:34

    Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    Acts 10 is really making my point about the inclusion of the gentiles.

    “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. "

    Gods elect come from among the Jews, Gentiles, atheist, hundus, Muslims, LDS, JWs, etc.

    for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
    from every tribe and language and people and nation,
    “Every promise of Scripture is a writing of God, which may be pleaded before Him with this reasonable request, ‘Do as Thou hast said.’ The Heavenly Father will not break His Word to His own child.”― Charles H. Spurgeon

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
      The underlining principle must be that God's elect are chosen through faith. Whosoever hath faith is one of God's Chosen, none are chosen to have faith... They are chosen through faith...
      So, you say we chose ourselves, in essence, by having faith ?

      You guys seem to using " whosoever " as if God does not know who the elect are. It seems that on one hand you have a view that God is trying to save people in general. And on the other, he has saved a certain group of people.
      “Every promise of Scripture is a writing of God, which may be pleaded before Him with this reasonable request, ‘Do as Thou hast said.’ The Heavenly Father will not break His Word to His own child.”― Charles H. Spurgeon

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
        Personally I believe that God made salvation available to all that he created. Then chose faith as the way of salvation, then said "whosoever will let him come.
        This seems to be how a open theist would see it.
        “Every promise of Scripture is a writing of God, which may be pleaded before Him with this reasonable request, ‘Do as Thou hast said.’ The Heavenly Father will not break His Word to His own child.”― Charles H. Spurgeon

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by phat8594 View Post
          In context of John 3, and other Yohanine literature - the use of 'world' is quite consistent.

          The point is not to show the inclusion of the gentiles in John 3. In fact, in context that seems to completely miss the point. Rather, as is consistent with the rest of Yohanine literature, world is referring to literally the 'world'. That world includes everything - the broken system, broken people, the broken planet. IOW, God loves His creation -- so much so that He sent His only begotten Son.
          Like I said, I got no problem with that. But when you look at the broken people who are saved they are Jews and Gentiles.
          “Every promise of Scripture is a writing of God, which may be pleaded before Him with this reasonable request, ‘Do as Thou hast said.’ The Heavenly Father will not break His Word to His own child.”― Charles H. Spurgeon

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
            No disagreement on that, where I believe there is a fatal flaw in the Calvinist position is their belief that God created all, chose some for salvation, chose others for eternal damnation without any regard to anything pertaining to the person chosen...
            There is so much that you are leaving here. And rightfully so, because this is a topic all its own. You are leaving out that the Reformed view believes that no one desires to come to God without Him first regerating them. Along with that, that God does not universally save everyone. Thats why anyone who believes in the concept of total depravity, but not the other points, are not being consistent.
            “Every promise of Scripture is a writing of God, which may be pleaded before Him with this reasonable request, ‘Do as Thou hast said.’ The Heavenly Father will not break His Word to His own child.”― Charles H. Spurgeon

            Comment


            • #66
              The Reformed view is looking at what is doing from " behind the scenes " so to speak. It takes in account everything in scripture reveals about God and His plan and purpose. It views the Old and New Testament as one complete revelation, and seeks to uphold the sovereignty of God and His glory. It came to bring back the essence of the Gospel from Rome, and put our focus back on what God has revealed through the written Word.

              If the point of this thread is to show that Reformed view of God is just as bad as the JWs, then that has yet to be demonstrated.
              “Every promise of Scripture is a writing of God, which may be pleaded before Him with this reasonable request, ‘Do as Thou hast said.’ The Heavenly Father will not break His Word to His own child.”― Charles H. Spurgeon

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
                The underlining principle must be that God's elect are chosen through faith. Whosoever hath faith is one of God's Chosen, none are chosen to have faith... They are chosen through faith...
                Not exactly. Actually, election is according to God's foreknowledge before time, which is through the sanctification of His Holy Spirit in time upon His elect to the obedience and belief in the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; 1 Peter 1:1, 2; Ephesians 1:4.) So in this, God is fully sovereign in His grace and our choice to the truth is really our choice (bearing in mind, 1 John 4:19; John 3:18-21).

                Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
                No disagreement on that, where I believe there is a fatal flaw in the Calvinist position is their belief that God created all, chose some for salvation, chose others for eternal damnation without any regard to anything pertaining to the person chosen... Personally I believe that God made salvation available to all that he created. Then chose faith as the way of salvation, then said "whosoever will let him come."
                Two things here: 1) God does choose His elect to be saved. 2) God does not choose anyone to cause them to be damned. That is their choice. Not God's (see Ezekiel 18:32).
                Saved by Grace through faith…. If you accept the Calvinistic belief of election, you must accept it as is, with all of its consequences and ramifications… Anything less is not Calvinistic… Even the worst lies must be mixed with a bit of truth mixed in to establish believability
                I do not believe in unconditional election. I do believe in unmerited election. (Ephesians 1:4.) That one is saved by grace through faith. And not of any merit on the part of the believer. The truth to be believed is God's truth.
                Last edited by 37818; 09-28-2014, 11:06 PM.
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Sentient 6 View Post
                  So, you say we chose ourselves, in essence, by having faith ?

                  You guys seem to using " whosoever " as if God does not know who the elect are. It seems that on one hand you have a view that God is trying to save people in general. And on the other, he has saved a certain group of people.

                  That's not what he is saying at all. God, in His sovereignty, chose faith as the means to salvation. That being said, faith is by no mean meritorious.

                  The idea is that God offers salvation to everyone -- as in all people -- all races, ages, eye colors, etc. -- NO Exclusions. Of course, salvation is conditioned upon faith -- so although it is offered to everyone, it is only realized by those who have faith. This is consistent with historical Christian orthodoxy.

                  1 John 2:2
                  He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                    dacristoy,

                    1 John 5:1, "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . ."

                    Talking to a JW, the "Whosoever" are only the 144,000. Not the rank and file JW.

                    Reading a Catholic apologetics site, the "Whosoever" are only the baptized.

                    According to Calvinism the "Whosoever" are only God's elect. (Which happens to be true, and I'm not a Calvinist. My viewpoint is nevertheless Calvinistic on only two points of the T.U.L.I.P., the T and P.)

                    2 John 9, "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son." ( Here the "Whosoever" that "abideth not in the doctrine of Christ" are not the elect.)
                    So, you disagree with the U. L. I., that is part and parcel with Reformed Theology, but you still consider them to fall within the doctrines of Christ. Question: Do you consider Reformed Theology to be God's elect theology, for does it suffer the same exclusion as any other doctrines that do not abide in Christ....

                    This passage appears to set the doctrine of limited atonement outside the doctrines of Christ...

                    1 John 2:2
                    He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
                    Last edited by dacristoy; 09-29-2014, 12:05 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by phat8594 View Post
                      In context of John 3, and other Yohanine literature - the use of 'world' is quite consistent.

                      The point is not to show the inclusion of the gentiles in John 3. In fact, in context that seems to completely miss the point. Rather, as is consistent with the rest of Yohanine literature, world is referring to literally the 'world'. That world includes everything - the broken system, broken people, the broken planet. IOW, God loves His creation -- so much so that He sent His only begotten Son.
                      If you are quoting from John 3:16, the context established immediately excludes the of applying to all of creation. "Whosoever believeth" believeth is something that applies to men, not creation.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        Not exactly. Actually, election is according to God's foreknowledge before time, which is through the sanctification of His Holy Spirit in time upon His elect to the obedience and belief in the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; 1 Peter 1:1, 2; Ephesians 1:4.) So in this, God is fully sovereign in His grace and our choice to the truth is really our choice (bearing in mind, 1 John 4:19; John 3:18-21).
                        One thing about sovereignty that logic demands that we understand. Sovereignty in no way dictates to God what he must to in order to be sovereign. Sovereignty represents Gods unalterable right to do what he pleases. Foreknowledge is in no way causative. God can have foreknowledge of things that you and I will or will not do of our own volition.

                        God did not chose his elect corporately or personally, of his own volition and according to his good pleasure, God choose FAITH as the only way to salvation. He did this not based on any merit in men, but as was pleasing to him.

                        Two things here: 1) God does choose His elect to be saved. 2) God does not choose anyone to cause them to be damned. That is their choice. Not God's (see Ezekiel 18:32).
                        It is a choice manifested in faith, even though God foreknew our choice, it still emanates from our own volition.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Sentient 6 View Post
                          Well, you would have to actually prove that the Reformed view of God misrepresents the nature of God.

                          ...and I kinda getting the picture thats what you would like to try to do ?
                          If you accept the reformed view of determinism, determinism that makes God the originator and cause of every evil perpetrated in creation, and do not see this as detrimental to the fact that God hates sin, He causes it; yet now he wants to judge and condemn men for what he authored, frankly I would take the misguided view held by the J W's every time.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
                            If you are quoting from John 3:16, the context established immediately excludes the of applying to all of creation. "Whosoever believeth" believeth is something that applies to men, not creation.
                            The context actually does not exclude all of creation. In fact, if you look at how John uses the word 'world' throughout his literature, it is quite consistent. It represents the broken system and people within God's creation. This sort of broad meaning, by no means excludes God's grace to all the people within creation.

                            In fact, the beauty of that verse is that it shows the primary recipient of God's grace -- people. As has always been the case, mankind has been set above the rest of creation and has a special relationship with God and redemption. So what do we know? That man is the primary object of God's grace -- but He is also restoring all of creation -- and there will be a time when ALL of creation is restored.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
                              If you accept the reformed view of determinism, determinism that makes God the originator and cause of every evil perpetrated in creation, and do not see this as detrimental to the fact that God hates sin, He causes it; yet now he wants to judge and condemn men for what he authored, frankly I would take the misguided view held by the J W's every time.
                              Just as an observation:

                              At Genesis 3:17 God proclaimed his punishment upon Adam "And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life". If you have married you know such is fulfilled!!!

                              An interesting proposition: Gen 2:21-24 "And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." Given Adam & Eve were our first mother & father, Adam would have had no concept of at least the mother roles (they are proposed as being created by the Father alone), so obviously we have a scribal insertion from a much later date. Given Jesus' repetive testimony that man and one wife (exclusively for life) were meant to be as (if) one flesh, then why was it offensive to God that Adam following his wife acted as "one flesh".

                              I have an answer but it may not be acceptable to you...

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Sentient 6 View Post
                                There is so much that you are leaving here. And rightfully so, because this is a topic all its own. You are leaving out that the Reformed view believes that no one desires to come to God without Him first regerating them. Along with that, that God does not universally save everyone. Thats why anyone who believes in the concept of total depravity, but not the other points, are not being consistent.
                                First you need to establish the concept of TOTAL DEPRAVITY {with all of the implied Reformed ramifications} as a FOUNDATIONAL scriptural principal. My contention is that it is not taught in scripture as it is taught in Reformed Theology.

                                Depravity is taught in scripture, the total concept is not established...
                                Last edited by dacristoy; 09-30-2014, 11:55 AM.

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