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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

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Merits/Demerits of Reformed Theology VS. Jehovas Wittnesses.

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  • #91
    Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
    In order for God to “foreknow” the choices that an individual will make, the individual must in fact already exist in order to have made said choice.
    ". . . he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, . . ." -- Ephesians 1:4, says you are wrong about this.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      ". . . he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, . . ." -- Ephesians 1:4, says you are wrong about this.
      This verse actually says nothing about what dacristoy said...


      3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.


      It's simple, really -- when we approach it the way we would any other text or sentence, apart from our theological presuppositions.

      So what is this verse saying?

      It's saying that:

      1. God chose us (believers..i.e. those 'in Christ')
      2. This was done IN CHRIST [PS, for fun, you should count how many times it says 'in Christ' & 'in Him' throughout the whole text]
      3. This was done before the foundation of the world
      4. The choice was made to make us holy and blameless


      So, really, the verse isn't talking about 'predestination' in the individualistic / Calvinistic sense, but rather it is talking about a choice that was Christocentric in nature. The point, especially in the larger context, is all of the spiritual blessings that are given to those found IN CHRIST. We are united to, and thus found 'in Christ' through faith.

      This verse is not talking about foreknowledge or any philosophical construct, thereof.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        ". . . he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, . . ." -- Ephesians 1:4, says you are wrong about this.
        No!!! Ephesians 1:4 did not say that I am wrong about anything, you did....
        Last edited by dacristoy; 11-01-2014, 11:57 AM.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
          God is omniscient. God always knew who are his.
          Not disagreed with nor considered as debatable… Now focus and stay with me… God always knew who were his and those that were not his. God made a choice, these are mine, those are not: What criteria did God use to separate the two groups. Please let’s not tap dance around this. God used some criteria, {be it known or unknown to us} to separate the two groups.

          Your response above does nothing to deal with this issue, so to repeat it says nothing…
          God is not finite in His election.
          Finite or infinite, the word choice/election demands criteria. If you contend that the word choice when applied to God does not require criteria, then the word that God chose is deceptive, misleading; does God have another more appropriate word to use, if he does then he did not use it here….
          But it is of consequence. The lost think their faith merits salvation. Typically along with supposed required works of faith.
          Your contention here is so broad here that it steps outside the realm of truth into the world of deception. Most of the people that I know do not believe that their faith merits salvation, they simply incorporate good works as a part of their faith.

          (Be ye doers of the word and not hearers only, lest you deceive your own selves)
          Romans 11:6, And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
          So am I to understand that you think Ephesians 1:4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: . . . to be the lie?
          What leads you to believe that I have concluded that?
          Do this, if you would, outline, foreknowledge, election/choosing, before, predestination, from/since/after, sanctification of the Holy Spirit, obedience, truth, faith. In what order you think God did this.
          Outline it? Could you be a little more specific? Otherwise you have them in pretty good order.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by phat8594 View Post
            This verse actually says nothing about what dacristoy said...


            3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.


            It's simple, really -- when we approach it the way we would any other text or sentence, apart from our theological presuppositions.

            So what is this verse saying?

            It's saying that:

            1. God chose us (believers..i.e. those 'in Christ')
            2. This was done IN CHRIST [PS, for fun, you should count how many times it says 'in Christ' & 'in Him' throughout the whole text]
            3. This was done before the foundation of the world
            4. The choice was made to make us holy and blameless


            So, really, the verse isn't talking about 'predestination' in the individualistic / Calvinistic sense, but rather it is talking about a choice that was Christocentric in nature. The point, especially in the larger context, is all of the spiritual blessings that are given to those found IN CHRIST. We are united to, and thus found 'in Christ' through faith.

            This verse is not talking about foreknowledge or any philosophical construct, thereof.
            Perhaps I just talk too much. I do not know what you disagreed with, because I do not disagree with anything that you said. Except this; "This verse actually says nothing about what dacristoy said..."

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by themuzicman View Post
              Nicea.
              Chalcedon.
              I was hoping that that position would be left up to scripture.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by phat8594 View Post
                This verse actually says nothing about what dacristoy said...


                3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.


                It's simple, really -- when we approach it the way we would any other text or sentence, apart from our theological presuppositions.

                So what is this verse saying?

                It's saying that:

                1. God chose us (believers..i.e. those 'in Christ')
                2. This was done IN CHRIST [PS, for fun, you should count how many times it says 'in Christ' & 'in Him' throughout the whole text]
                3. This was done before the foundation of the world
                4. The choice was made to make us holy and blameless


                So, really, the verse isn't talking about 'predestination' in the individualistic / Calvinistic sense, but rather it is talking about a choice that was Christocentric in nature. The point, especially in the larger context, is all of the spiritual blessings that are given to those found IN CHRIST. We are united to, and thus found 'in Christ' through faith.

                This verse is not talking about foreknowledge or any philosophical construct, thereof.
                In logical oder God's foreknowledge precedes election, that election precedes the predestination (1:4 & Romans 8:29). Now dacristory argued,
                Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
                In order for God to “foreknow” the choices that an individual will make, the individual must in fact already exist in order to have made said choice.
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
                  I was hoping that that position would be left up to scripture.
                  Well, that is one of the negative consequences of "sola scriptura." Once you leave the authority of the church behind, anyone can become an "authority."

                  The fact is that Nicea and Chalcedon are part of the foundation of Christianity. Denying these puts one outside of Christendom.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by themuzicman View Post
                    Well, that is one of the negative consequences of "sola scriptura." Once you leave the authority of the church behind, anyone can become an "authority."

                    The fact is that Nicea and Chalcedon are part of the foundation of Christianity. Denying these puts one outside of Christendom
                    .
                    This was the original the Council of Nicea
                    We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible:

                    Originally posted by dacristoy
                    I have a few problems with The Council of Nicea, especially if it is to be taken as the dividing line between Christianity and what is Non-Christian…

                    Below, the personal integrity of each member of the Trinity is established as such: “We believe in the existence and subsistence of each of these [persons]: that the Father is truly Father, the Son truly Son, and the Holy Spirit truly Holy Spirit;”

                    Above it states “We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible: Below the Council states, “the only-begotten Son, born before all creation, begotten of God the Father, before all ages, by whom also all things were made;So to whom does scripture attribute the works of creation, The Father Almighty, or the only begotten Son
                    And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Word of God, God of God, Light of light, Life of life, the only-begotten Son, born before all creation, begotten of God the Father, before all ages, by whom also all things were made; who on account of our salvation became incarnate, and lived among men; and who suffered and rose again on the third day, and ascended to the Father, and shall come again in glory to judge the living and the dead.

                    Originally posted by dacristoy
                    I believe that there is a tad of confusion here also. Born before all creation does in fact attribute a temporal existence to Christ. Born or became flesh attributes the beginning of Our Lord and Savior to his birth with Mary. There exist no eternality to the person of Christ. Christ preexisted being Born of God/begotten by the father on another plane of existence that does not include, time wise or otherwise his incarnation.

                    Read this carefully, I have not denied the eternal existence of our savior, nor the existence of the precious Trinity that the bible gives to us… It’s just that this council does a lousy job of explaining Christ’s preexistence with the incarnation…
                    We believe also in one Holy Spirit.

                    We believe in the existence and subsistence of each of these [persons]: that the Father is truly Father, the Son truly Son, and the Holy Spirit truly Holy Spirit; even as our Lord also, when he sent forth his disciples to preach the Gospel, said, "Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

                    Originally posted by dacristoy
                    Here the council does a magnificent job of ascribing individual personage to each person of the trinity.
                    Concerning this personage, this is ascribed to make clear scripture for man’s understanding. To my knowledge the bible never ascribe personage to the trinity, (not denying it) the bible does in fact verify the one God, Not one person) God is spirit, The Father, The Word, (Son) and the Holy Spirit constitute one Spirit. All three are one spirit…
                    This was the original the Council of Nicea had to work from. Eusebius testifies that everyone there was okay with it … except one. The emperor requested the insertion of the word homousios.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      In logical oder God's foreknowledge precedes election, that election precedes the predestination (1:4 & Romans 8:29). Now dacristory argued,
                      To foreknow choices is entirely different from election.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
                        . . .
                        the only-begotten Son, born before all creation, begotten of God the Father, before all ages, . . .
                        I disagree with this here. Because the only-begotten Son WAS NOT BEGOTTEN to be the Son. God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit, these three Persons were always God, and always those Persons. The Son of God is the only-begotten by relationship, not by being born in some eternity past. It was that type of thinking which gave rise to the error of denying the full deity of the Son. ". . . born before all creation . . ." is error.
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
                          To foreknow choices is entirely different from election.
                          You confuse foreknowledge with foreknowing choices. One is biblical the other the bible is silent on.
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            You confuse foreknowledge with foreknowing choices. One is biblical the other the bible is silent on.
                            Which is which, How do I apply your response to my quote?

                            Comment


                            • ---Quote (Originally by dacristoy)---
                              . . .
                              the only-begotten Son, born before all creation, begotten of God the Father, before all ages, . . .

                              I disagree with this here. Because the only-begotten Son WAS NOT BEGOTTEN to be the Son. God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit, these three Persons were always God, and always those Persons. The Son of God is the only-begotten by relationship, not by being born in some eternity past. It was that type of thinking which gave rise to the error of denying the full deity of the Son. ". . . born before all creation . . ." is error.[/quote]

                              The bible never refers to the Trinity as Persons. In John 1, the bible does state “these three are one”; not these three “persons are one…”
                              John 1 King James Version (KJV)
                              1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
                              2 The same was in the beginning with God.
                              3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
                              14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
                              The full deity of the Son, born in time, not made flesh before all creation… To take the reality of Christ’s incarnation as a denial of his deity is your error, not mine.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                                I disagree with this here. Because the only-begotten Son WAS NOT BEGOTTEN to be the Son. God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit, these three Persons were always God, and always those Persons. The Son of God is the only-begotten by relationship, not by being born in some eternity past. It was that type of thinking which gave rise to the error of denying the full deity of the Son. ". . . born before all creation . . ." is error.
                                ---Quote (Originally by dacristoy)---
                                . . .
                                the only-begotten Son, born before all creation, begotten of God the Father, before all ages, . . .
                                ---End Quote---
                                I disagree with this here. Because the only-begotten Son WAS NOT BEGOTTEN to be the Son. God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit, these three Persons were always God, and always those Persons. The Son of God is the only-begotten by relationship, not by being born in some eternity past. It was that type of thinking which gave rise to the error of denying the full deity of the Son. ". . . born before all creation . . ." is error.

                                The bible never refers to the Trinity as Persons. In John 1, the bible does state “these three are one”; not these three “persons are one…”
                                John 1 King James Version (KJV)
                                1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
                                2 The same was in the beginning with God.
                                3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
                                14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
                                The full deity of the Son, born in time, not made flesh before all creation… To take the reality of Christ’s incarnation as a denial of his deity is your error, not mine.

                                Comment

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