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Thread: Aliens = angels & demons?

  1. #21
    Professor Cerebrum123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    Other supernatural beings could be demons, which we know weren't immediately put in chains.
    What reason do we have to believe that demons are anything other than fallen angels?
    Safka, you are NOT "unknown", you were loved by many, and you will not be forgotten. I will always remember you Puginator.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    What reason do we have to believe that demons are anything other than fallen angels?
    Because Jude portrays fallen angels them as waiting in chains after their rebellion but the gospel account portrays demons as running around for the time being. Separate terms are used for them so I see no reason to conflate the two.
    Something is always happening, but when it happens, people don't always see it, or understand it... or accept it.

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    Professor Zymologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    Because Jude portrays fallen angels them as waiting in chains after their rebellion but the gospel account portrays demons as running around for the time being. Separate terms are used for them so I see no reason to conflate the two.
    Interesting. This is a topic that really fascinates me (naturally), but the Bible doesn't have much to say about it.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    Because Jude portrays fallen angels them as waiting in chains after their rebellion but the gospel account portrays demons as running around for the time being. Separate terms are used for them so I see no reason to conflate the two.
    Then what about Satan? Is he a fallen angel, or something else? Jude seems to be speaking about what happened before the flood of Noah*. Do you think that all sinning angels but one were put in chains way back then?

    *The link between Tartarus, and the Nephilim(Greek gigantes which was their word for "Titans" which is where the whole "giants" thing came from) seems to be there. Given that Tartarus was where the Titans of Greek mythology were thrown when defeated by the Greek pantheon.

    http://www.tektonics.org/gk/gen6.php
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfTSpFhiyB8
    Safka, you are NOT "unknown", you were loved by many, and you will not be forgotten. I will always remember you Puginator.


  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zymologist View Post
    Interesting. This is a topic that really fascinates me (naturally), but the Bible doesn't have much to say about it.
    Maybe it's just as well that it doesn't. I think CS Lewis was on to something when he said that one mistake was not to believe in devils and that the other was to be obsessed with them.
    Something is always happening, but when it happens, people don't always see it, or understand it... or accept it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    Then what about Satan? Is he a fallen angel, or something else? Jude seems to be speaking about what happened before the flood of Noah*. Do you think that all sinning angels but one were put in chains way back then?

    *The link between Tartarus, and the Nephilim(Greek gigantes which was their word for "Titans" which is where the whole "giants" thing came from) seems to be there. Given that Tartarus was where the Titans of Greek mythology were thrown when defeated by the Greek pantheon.

    http://www.tektonics.org/gk/gen6.php
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfTSpFhiyB8
    If there's that much evidence that this is its referent then I suppose that could be a legitimate reason to restrict the scope.
    Something is always happening, but when it happens, people don't always see it, or understand it... or accept it.

  7. #27
    Professor Zymologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    Maybe it's just as well that it doesn't. I think CS Lewis was on to something when he said that one mistake was not to believe in devils and that the other was to be obsessed with them.
    Agreed.

  8. #28
    tWebber JohnnyP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    From the article:

    In my book The Mormon Defenders, I noted that the evidence indicates that Judaism of Jesus' era, before, and after, believed that the "sons of God" in Genesis 6 were fallen angels, and that this understanding is also indicated by 1 Peter.

    If referring to the following, I don't consider it to be discussing angels of Noah's time. I think it should be read this way:

    JESUS PREACHING TO HUMAN SINNERS IN SHEOL

    1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

    1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient.
    COMPARISON OF BAPTISM TO THE FLOOD

    1 Peter 3:20 When once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
    In other words I believe 1 Peter 3:20 ought to be split as it moves on to a different subject when discussing Noah's time, 1 Peter 3:19 is not talking about angels who took wives, but about humans.

  9. #29
    Professor Cerebrum123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyP View Post
    From the article:


    If referring to the following, I don't consider it to be discussing angels of Noah's time. I think it should be read this way:

    JESUS PREACHING TO HUMAN SINNERS IN SHEOL



    COMPARISON OF BAPTISM TO THE FLOOD



    In other words I believe 1 Peter 3:20 ought to be split as it moves on to a different subject when discussing Noah's time, 1 Peter 3:19 is not talking about angels who took wives, but about humans.
    That doesn't take into account Jude and the mention of Tartarus, and the angels who were there in chains. Then there's the "strange flesh" they went after. As well as what's talked about in 2 Peter 2. All of it together points towards the view of the "sons of God" being the angels bound in chains, in Tartarus.

    Jude 1:6-8
    New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after [a]strange flesh, are exhibited as an [b]example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

    1 Peter 3:19-20
    New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    19 in [a]which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the [b]water.

    2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a [a]preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

    Given that in Sodom and Gomorrah, the people tried to be* with angels, I think the above verses, combined with everything else give more than sufficient evidence to accept the "sons of God" as angels.

    *Trying to be polite here.
    Safka, you are NOT "unknown", you were loved by many, and you will not be forgotten. I will always remember you Puginator.


  10. #30
    tWebber JohnnyP's Avatar
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    I agree with Jude and 2 Peter about angels and the rest of your comments, but I think interpreting 1 Peter 3:19 as referring to angels is entirely off the wall coming from nowhere since it is sandwiched between concepts that deal entirely with human salvation.

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