Lies, Deception and.....God?

[reasonabledoubt]

I'd hardly call faking out an opponent in a game "lying"- but as far as lying is ok when the other person expects to be lied to- how could that be anything other than situational ethics? So if my husband is a liar and a cheat, and I know that and expect him to lie, it's ok for him to lie then?

Lying is either right or wrong, period. It is wrong to lie to save your life too- however, the lesser of two evils would be to lie. Doesn't mean that lying is right though, ever.

[Xmansmommy]

How do you explain God sending lying spirits RD? If it's either right or wrong, was God wrong?

[Dee Dee Warren]

RD is completely wrong on this point. There are times when lying is the right thing to do under the circumstances. Was Corrie Ten Boom immoral when she lied to the Nazis about hiding Jews?

XMM, I will try to find what I wrote on this before.

[Xmansmommy]

Thank you ! Look forward to reading it again.

[geebob]

With that said, I have started reading the bible for the second time, and in Genesis (and other places) we find accounts of lies and deceptions that seemed to either go unnoticed, unpunished or even condoned by God. And I don't understand.

I'll make a few points here.

Christians like to say that they believe in moral absolutes. I believe in absolutes but I think there are far fewer than typical christians think there are. For example, is rape wrong. Well I think it's possible where God could have made a creature such that rape would not be a morally culpable wrong. And in fact, I believe in the animal kingdom there are animals who force other animals into breeding. So it isn't strictly speaking an absolute that holds sway over all possible worlds that God could have created. OF course someone might smack there foreheads at that and say "no dummy, it's absolutely wrong for humans to rape" I think this is true, but when I see the word absolute, I'm thinking in broader philosophical terms. I think there is an absolute behind that statement that rape is wrong for humans, but that simple statement there is not enough. I think the absolute behind that statement is that it is absolutely wrong for creatures with some sort of eternal intrinsic worth and a sense of that where consensual sexuality plays a role in approaching that worth for sexual activity to be forced upon them. If sex wasn't such a deep part of who we were and if who we were wasn't so important, the absolute loses it's force. perhaps then we might have an ugly picture and aesthetically unpleasing one, but that may not be so much to the point of an immoral situation.

the second thing I'll mention is that in revelation, we have a progress of relationship with God and his expectations of us. God really does have different expectations and I dare say different expectations of different people given where they are at and we can see this exemplified in a paraphrase of a statement of Jesus' (paraphrased because I'm too short on time to look it up), "To those given much, much will be expected and to those given little, little will be expected."

but we can also see it in that God did indeed judge the other nations and he did not hold them to the same high standards that he held israel to because to israel he made a most significant covenant.

Now think about this that God holds us to standards according to where we are at. Where was abraham in relation to God? He was the first Jew and it was he whom God started to build his plan for salvation. Surely this was a relationship which the Jews have revered even though it was more primative than the relationship God would have than that with moses whom he gave the laws or hezekiah who had the laws and the propets. And it is through the abrahamic covenant of faith that God brings us gentiles into the fold. But that highlights that the most important aspect of our relationship to God is that it is characterized by grace. But at any rate, God did not hold abraham to the same standards as he did a post mosaic Jew. For example, it was not exactly a full lie that Sarah was his sister. She was his half sister. So it was a bit incestuous. But I don't think that was that big of an issue that God was preparing for, the accumulation of dangerous recessive mutations (recessive might be the wrong word), that would match up for some life ruining combinations, and I don't believe that they had the same psycology that we do that finds such a thing repugnant.

Here's the third thing. Although I don't believe incest in the that day had the same dangerous consequences that it does now, I suggest doing something that evangelicals have some weird adverse reasoning against (though Jesus did it...look at his arguement for life after death...God is the God of abraham...Abraham is supposed to be dead but our God is the God of the living, thus Abraham must really live somehow after death). Read between the lines. Abraham and Sarah did not have the happyiest relationship. Perhaps abraham thought he was helping God by giving Sarah the opportunity to sleep with a king and concieve an heir (and I suppose abraham would have had some odd sort of faith that God would get them out of such a situation after conception). And Sarah seemed to have returned this horrid favor giving her servant to abraham. But ultimately, she didn't handle it well as she beat hagar. (the word may not come through as clearly in our tame translations, but yes, she indeed beat hagar.) And so God had abraham send her away. And do you not think that that was a heart breaking experience. All parties involved were burned. What punishment was necessary?

It's not often that artwork breaks my heart, but I have recently read a little bit of a book by theologian miroslav Wolf (pronounced volf) and the cover has a depiction of the event of Abraham sending his son away and it's very moving. I found it to be a very sad depiction after I learned the name of the artwork. (mods please don't treat this as advertising, I couldn't download the pic and it's the only way to get post it)

click on the link and scroll down.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0687...67#reader-link

[reasonabledoubt]

I don't know why God sent lying spirits- he's omnipotent and can do what he wants. He's not held to any standard, is he? However, humans ARE held to a standard...

And of course Corrie ten Boom did the right thing. But it doesn't change the fact that she lied and it is wrong to lie- but she was between a rock and a hard place, and had to choose to lie in order to avoid the greater harm.

Think about it- were the Christian martyrs of the first centuries right to not denounce their faith? They suffered the consequences of it - death. Should they have lied and said they WERE denouncing their faith, but yet really stay true to Christianity in their hearts, in order to avoid death (and not just of themselves but also their families)?

[Xmansmommy]

Very helpful post geebob. Thank you. I guess now God is telling me it's time to move on to the deeper issues, not just the facts. That's my intent in this thread. It is already proving beneficial.

[bar Jonah]

Great stuff, everyone!

Geebob, just an off-topic side note... Abraham wasn't a Jew.

Israel began with Jacob. Just like Abram became Abraham and Saul became Paul... Jacob became the man named Israel, and his 12 son are the 12 tribes. Abraham, on the other hand, was a Gentile. There wasn't even any such thing as a Jew at the time.

We now return to our regularly scheduled program, already in progress.

[Xmansmommy]

RD, I just don't see a black and white line when it comes to lies and deception biblically. I believe it is wrong to lie when the intended purpose is not righteous. I do believe there were times biblically and even today when lying is not considered morally wrong because the intent of the heart is not to bring harm but to do right. Lying to defend your belief only affects you and I'm not sure that falls into the same category as lying to protect others or the greater good. I could be wrong though. I'm willing to listen to why you think it's the same.

[reasonabledoubt]

Is a white lie OK when it's told just to avoid hurting someone's feelings?

I'm trying to be consistent- I don't know how Christians can claim to hold to some absolute moral standard, when they clearly do not. If they are saying in some cases it is OK to lie, in others, not...in some cases it's ok to have polygamy and forced marriage, as in the OT, and in our time, it's not OK. It's ok to commit genocide when you're a Hebrew in the OT, but it's not ok today...why can't we just call a spade a spade and say that this is cultural relativism, and also situation ethics?
It's not necessarily a bad thing to hold to situational ethics, since few things in life are black and white. But then just be honest about it.

[bar Jonah]

Oh and Linda, I wasn't saying that no one ever lies or deceives believers in scripture. I was saying that it never shown as being approved by God. Laban deceiving Jacob was wrong; in fact, Jacob gets him back... without lying, I might add! Just by using his smarts. Laban just plain lied, and he suffered big consequences. But God did use Laban's deceipt to show Jacob that as a general rule, what you put out is going to come back at you.

[Xmansmommy]

Good point Jim, thanks.

[Xmansmommy]

Is a white lie OK when it's told just to avoid hurting someone's feelings?

I'm trying to be consistent- I don't know how Christians can claim to hold to some absolute moral standard, when they clearly do not. If they are saying in some cases it is OK to lie, in others, not...in some cases it's ok to have polygamy and forced marriage, as in the OT, and in our time, it's not OK. It's ok to commit genocide when you're a Hebrew in the OT, but it's not ok today...why can't we just call a spade a spade and say that this is cultural relativism, and also situation ethics?
It's not necessarily a bad thing to hold to situational ethics, since few things in life are black and white. But then just be honest about it.

I'm as honest as I can be RD. I don't always know the absolute moral standard. That's why I bring my struggles here to TWeb so I can better understand myself, Christianity and God as a whole. I don't even begin to claim I understand it all. Do you? Let's be honest, amen!

[GoBahnsen]

[QUOTE=RightIdea]

Aside from the blind faith that Bahnsen is offering, I would suggest to you regarding Jacob that it did not go "unpunished."

Jacob lived by the sword and died by the sword. And with a forked tongue like his, he brought deceit back against himself down the road. Here was a man with a born charisma and craftiness. He could have used it for good or ill. And he could have trusted in God's plan or not, and he and his mother did not. Just as Abraham decided to take matters into his own hands and lie with Hagar, Jacob and his mother took matters into their own hands and tried to force God's plan through deceipt. They did bring about what they thought was their desired goal, but what was the result after that? Jacob had to hit the road, else his brother would murder him. He didn't think about the results after the results.

So then he hit the road. And what happened? Fell in love. But guess what? He tries to win her, but Laban ... is deceitful! What do you know? Live by the sword, die by the sword. Jacob is decieved, cheated out of what was rightfully his. He can still have it -- God's will bring brought out but now at a much higher cost in response to Jacob's sins.

Eventually, Jacob wrestles with God and is broken before Him, like a wild mustang finally broken by a horse master. He finally bends to God's will, and becomes a new man.

Yisrael, the father of God's chosen people, father of 12 sons, father of the 12 tribes. He surely could have gone a much easier route. "We can do this the easy way or the hard way," as they say in the movies. Jacob thought he was taking a shortcut, but he was really takin the "hard way." Just goes to show, even with an Open God, you can fight it, but God's will wins out in the end.

Some very good rehearsing here of sowing and reaping. I don't want to go off topic, but I find it interesting to see God's sovereignty so clearly portrayed here. "Jacob have I loved." Unless we understand God's sovereignty in His dealings with men, we should expect to find everyone unable to shake God's love for them. But we see Jacob, unable to escape God even when he takes matters into his own hands. God wins, as you point out. Yet in so many other lives, the sinner "wins" if you will, and gets his just reward.

P.S. Almost forgot to mention... I do agree that there are times when lying is apparently not necessarily wrong in the context of the situation, biblically. However, as far as I can tell, every example of this that's been shown to me involves lying to someone who is not a believer, not a child of God in any sense. At one point, God actually even sends a "lying spirit" to a wicked nation through their prophets. God wanting lies to happen? Sure, information can be a weapon. But lying to believers? I'm not aware of any examples of this.

Hadn't thought about this before. Certainly the right situation to lie is extremely rare and most Christians live their whole lives without ever having a just reason to lie to anyone.

RD asks about "white lies". I guess there is no such thing, unless we call those lies that are necessary for the greater good. Jews in the cellar kind of thing.

You know, I had a drawn out argument with my old perfectionist Finney pastor over this very topic. He would not give permission to lie about anything, ever. He condemned Rahab. Instead of saying "I have no Jews in my cellar" he said all one could do is keep silent or say "how dare you ask me that question!"

But let's make it more personal. Men break into my house and my family manages to hide un-noticed in a closet. If I'm questioned as to their where-abouts, and I say they are out of town...I've done no moral wrong in my thinking. These men have no right to the truth under the circumstances, but rather have earned the right to be lied to.

I should go back and try to find those old e-mails, because I think I stumped him once or twice. At least he never answered me, though I confronted him repeatedly. Telling the truth can, in extreme rare cases, be a violation of the spirit of the law in an attempt to obey the letter.

[Ormly]

I find it interesting to see God's sovereignty so clearly portrayed here. "Jacob have I loved

It was His foreknowledge of Esau and Jacob that determined His choosing and not His sovereignity. One will be hard pressed to find anywhere in scripture where God acts capriously in His choosing; in fact it is impossible.

Orm