Does demonic possession still occur [split from Intro101 post]

[Jezz]

I have only read a little about this phenominon and have never witnessed it, of course, but I have one recurring thought.

These demonic possesions seemed to happen quite regularly during OT times. The occurance has happened (allegedly) throughout history into current times. It seems to me that he occurances happen to peoples in cultures that are generally uneducated and cultures that are highly superstisious. Anyone care to comment on that correlation?

The correlation is because en"light"ened societies such as ourselves are spiritually in the dark/blind. This plays into the demons' hands much more effectively than direct possession. Demon possessions are infrequent in our "enlightened" society because incidents of possession would only serve to spiritually awaken the society again. Apathy is a much better ally for the demonic world... "The greatest trick that the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he did not exist." (The Usual Suspects)

The quality of societies that you refer to as "superstition" (a somewhat bigotted and arrogant appraisal) is actually the quality of "spiritually awake".

[Macarthur]

The correlation is because en"light"ened societies such as ourselves are spiritually in the dark/blind. This plays into the demons' hands much more effectively than direct possession. Demon possessions are infrequent in our "enlightened" society because incidents of possession would only serve to spiritually awaken the society again. Apathy is a much better ally for the demonic world... "The greatest trick that the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he did not exist." (The Usual Suspects)

The quality of societies that you refer to as "superstition" (a somewhat bigotted and arrogant appraisal) is actually the quality of "spiritually awake".

Well, first, it's not any where near being bigotted. I will acknowledge that it may sound a bit arrogant, but the fact is that in OT times the literacy rate was around 5%. So what you are saying is that the more ignorant a society(I don't mean ignorant in an arrogant manner; just the true definition), the more spiritually aware they are?

[kofh2u]

I would also hazard the suggestion that in OT times, demonic possession occurs in the context of the 'deliverance' from possession by God's power. Moving forward in time to look at, say, Mark's gospel, demon possession features frequently for the same reason: I don't think we are supposed to see Israel as being overrun by demons, but rather the incidents have been slected to show Jesus' (and the disciples') power.

Good question, though.

We do not have a good account of just what these demons were up to in their "possessions" and just who it was that suffered by their presence. I mean, psychotics are people "possessed" with thoughts that lead to anti-social behavior dangerous for the people around them. On the other hand, neurotics tend to do the suffering themselves.

Inspite of the "supernatural" context of possessions as reported in ancient scrpiture, our own times evidence mental illness. We have been enculturated to accept it as a"normal" occurence, a medical condition of the mind. Of course, we have also come to understand that we have a subconscious.

We know that our conscious mind can both be helpless against subconscious ans irrepressible psychic episodes. These are thoughts or total ways of thinking that suddenly govern our behavior, set the "real me" aside, act as if that way of thinking, yhat "other person" in us is us. Mothers lament in cell blocks where they have been incarcerated for the murder of their infant children, for instance, by a "something" in them that is beyond their ontrol. Only, we no longer say, it is an external spirit that enters into them. We know that it is a psychic force, an archetypal subcons ious overpowering irrepressible urge, impulse, obsession, drive, ... u know.

Rev. 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars, (the sevenfold spirit of the psyche: Id, Libido, Ego, Anima, Self, Harmony, Superego): and out of his mouth went a two-edged sword (cutting both secular and theological understandings): and his countenance was as the sun (of rationality) shineth in his strength (of secular knowledge).

[Benster]

"I think alot of psychology has really distracted people from the root of the problem, which is the fact that people need a savior to overcome mental illnesses. Just my thoughts."

Well, clinical psychiatry has sought to understand the sequence of mental illness, why it happens, and how it can be alleviated. It's not necessarily concerned with root causes. Sometimes root causes are interesting only academically. For example, who cares whether a child was stung by a bee because he was careless, or because the bee was overly aggressive. The most important thing is to remove the stinger, and determine if the child is allergic.

I don't believe in demonic posession, but I would certainly agree that some mentally ill people (those whose problems may be alleviated by a belief in God, or especially those who already have religious conviction) may well be helped by religion. Especially in earlier times, when belief in spirits was much stronger than it is now. And, in those times, the only people who even cared about mental illness were also demonologists!

But that's different from claiming that there is such a thing as demonic posession, and that theologists and priests are the correct people to turn to for help with an illness that looks like posession. Nowadays, demonology has a meaning quite apart from the actions of actual demons. There may be a chemical imbalance causing a behavioral brain state that one is incapable of overcoming. And this may seem like posession. But there are not actually spirits that are taking over the mind. At least, as far as psychology is concerned...

...Now, a mormon with an illness may well wish to seek a mormon doctor. Similarly, a Christian with a mental illness may want to see a Christian psychologist. But to claim that a psychologist should have "knowledge" of demonism is...well, a bit ancient. I would be interested to see how many professional psychologists who are christians actually believe in demonic posession. I think that there are very few, if any.

(BTW, that guy ranting in mid air could have been yelling into his cellphone.)

[Benster]

"how come in our society with all it's pills and knowledge etc can we still not cure a lot of sickness and mental problems?"

This is a bit OT, sorry. But I would point out that medical science has dozens of drugs that can safely and completely obliterate your illness in all its external effects upon your behavior and anxiety, internal struggle, pain, emotional turmoil, self-destructive behavior etc. Thus rendering you completely harmless, to self and others. BUT, you may be bed-ridden, and practically incapacitated while you are treated! The hard part is to cure the illness, and still leave you walking and talking normally, with all your abilities, functions and complex set of emotions and consciousness otherwise unaffected. The mind is a terrible thing to lose! OTOH, there has been much success with recent anti-psychotics and anti-depressants, and more people than ever are taking them. But some people have side-effects.

[kofh2u]

What is a demon, really?

In Chinese medicine, we study possession by "external percicious influences". Such possessions are usually indicated by narcissism, inability to make eye contact, and the sufferer tends to make all people around them feel uncomfortable/unwelcome.

Somebody mentioned in an earlier post that possession seems to be more common in underdeveloped nations. I disagree. the idea of posession is clearly a cultural constuct, which varies from group to group.

Historically, possession and curse tends to reflect a social environment that is marked by a culture of distrust and often, war.

Superstition?

I believe there is a correlation between both the number of incidents of "spiritualistic possessions" reported and the backwardness of the people reporting them.

We all know that pagan beliefs in such things, from folklore to ghosts and actual devils in red suits with horns were way common reports during the Salem witchtrials. Hysteria accounts for many of the eye witness reports from groups. This phenomemon I have personally seen.

But, it seems that the kingdom within, that place in us where God reigns, is becoming better recognized with a growing awareness of the once totally unnoticed Subconscious Mind.


The sevenfold spirit has been referred to in terms of god's eternal qualities
(see Isaiah 11:2, which refers to:
the (1) spirit of the LORD (a good shepherd of Harmony),
the (2) spirit of wisdom (of superego logic) ,
the (3) spirit of understanding (the intuitive beliefs of our Anima),
the (4) spirit of counsel(before Egoisic reaction),
the (5) spirit of might (in our physical Libido),
the (6) spirit of knowledge (the reality of Self),
the (7) spirit of the fear of the LORD (instinctual Id)...
....notice, seven qualities compare with our mental image in sevenarchetypal modes of thinking).

[mickiel]

What is a demon, really?

In Chinese medicine, we study possession by "external percicious influences". Such possessions are usually indicated by narcissism, inability to make eye contact, and the sufferer tends to make all people around them feel uncomfortable/unwelcome.

Somebody mentioned in an earlier post that possession seems to be more common in underdeveloped nations. I disagree. the idea of posession is clearly a cultural constuct, which varies from group to group.

Historically, possession and curse tends to reflect a social environment that is marked by a culture of distrust and often, war.

When a demon is leading a human, that is possesion. It can be a spirit of lust, a simple outburst of anger, or a killing of something. It can last a moment, or a lifetime. It can be a spirit of deception, a blinding of spiritual things, a giving of a bad habit, or a full blown mind bending illousion. It can be a large influence, or a very small minor possesion. Rev. 12:9 says the whole world has been deceived. So I think at one time or another, all throughout our lives, we all have been possesed. To one degree or another. But it takes humility to see that. To see how we have been mislead at various times.

[Benster]

"Third, the possibility for deception here is significant."

At least he's honest about that!

[Sheepdog]

"how come in our society with all it's pills and knowledge etc can we still not cure a lot of sickness and mental problems?"

This is a bit OT, sorry. But I would point out that medical science has dozens of drugs that can safely and completely obliterate your illness in all its external effects upon your behavior and anxiety, internal struggle, pain, emotional turmoil, self-destructive behavior etc. Thus rendering you completely harmless, to self and others. BUT, you may be bed-ridden, and practically incapacitated while you are treated! The hard part is to cure the illness, and still leave you walking and talking normally, with all your abilities, functions and complex set of emotions and consciousness otherwise unaffected. The mind is a terrible thing to lose! OTOH, there has been much success with recent anti-psychotics and anti-depressants, and more people than ever are taking them. But some people have side-effects.

i would note that a lot of illnesses, especially mental ones, have not actually been cured (aside, perhaps, from conventional mental therapy). many drugs aren't designed to destroy illness, but to remove the symptoms. this is why people have to use some drugs, like Prozac, for practiaclly the rest of their lives.

i'm not a medical professional, but i've heard this from quite a few in the profession.

[Sheepdog]

Well, first, it's not any where near being bigotted. I will acknowledge that it may sound a bit arrogant, but the fact is that in OT times the literacy rate was around 5%. So what you are saying is that the more ignorant a society(I don't mean ignorant in an arrogant manner; just the true definition), the more spiritually aware they are?

How does a literacy rate correlate to an ignorance level? You forget (or perhaps you were ignorant of this, :heehee:) that the oral skills were superb in that era, and wisdom and knowledge doesn't have to be conveyed by text alone.

Certainly we live in the information age, but stupidity and ignorance seem to still run rampant.

Jezz wasn't suggesting that at all. But if a culture is already dead set on the presumption that God is unneeded, why (if in fact Demons exist) undermine their own efforts by possessing people (hence, giving the people a reason to need God).

[Gilgaron]

Since, at least by Descartes' reasoning, God would not allow systematic demonic trickery of people, why would nonsystematic demonic trickery be permitted?

Is a person morally responsible for actions while possessed?

[steamer]

I think lithium (sp?) and Zoloft are really god's little angels that bind the little demons and boot them out. Ok, no I don't really think that. If someone were possesed and these pills worked, are they miracle drugs?

[shunyadragon]

I think the question is best worded; Has Demon possession ever existed?

There is no legitimate evidence that it ever existed.

[learning]

I have heard of something that happened to someone I knew. This person said he was into horoscopes and self hypnosis at that time (looking into the mirror) and then he got a bad headache when he was out on a tractor. Then he would be very strange. He talked of wanting to take 'masks' off of people. He tried to 'rip off his brother's face'. He would swear very badly. Get on his bicycle and ride like crazy to get away from a 'black dog' that was chasing him. It took a car driving very fast to catch up with him. Tried to drown himself in a swimming pool. Stripped his clothes off on the front lawn of his minister's house. His mother said they wept at the time, trying to find out what was wrong with him.

He was taken into the hospital and cat scans and spinal taps done, but then, nothing was ever found wrong with him. It was four ministers praying in the name of Jesus that freed this person, and he never had this 'mental illness' again. This was in north America.

I don't know how else to explain this. He, this person, says that he felt that Satan went away very fast when he was prayed over. He talks, if at all, of this experience, as 'the time he lost his memory' but when he read the passage in the Bible about Jesus with the man possessed in the Bible, he had tears in his eyes. He doesn't talk about this much in modern society, as most will say he just had a 'mental experience'.

IF it was only a 'mental illness' it was only the prayer that seemed to help him, as he did not have any of this later. He wasn't 'cured' until then. I don't know how else to explain this. I give you the facts and you can interpret them how you wish.

BTW, I can attest that this person seems perfectly mentally sound now, only occasional anger problems, and I've known this person for the last 24 years, having been married to him for the last 21. I don't think he nor his mother would lie to me about such a thing.

[Gilgaron]

Learning,

That sort of thing isn't too uncommon. If there are local superstitions (not to be perjorative, but what would be a better word?) about, say, becoming blind due to stress, people will be physiologically able to see while effectively blind. The local folk panaceas will cure the symptoms. That's a hazy recollection of an example... there is a similar one about flacid paralysis of the limbs.

It is a case of it all being in one's head, or, at least, it often is.