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Thread: Daniel 11 and 12; where is the segue?

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    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    Daniel 11 and 12; where is the segue?

    The events in Daniel 11 seem to correspond pretty clearly to specific events before the time of Christ (Antiochus Epiphanes being a clear referent in Daniel 11:31). As far as I know, nobody disputes this.

    Daniel 12, on the other hand, is generally understood as eschatalogical; about the final judgment. However, there doesn't seem to be a clear segue between the two when I read it. It seems to portray it pretty clearly as something that will happen right after the previous events; without a big gap in history. The notes in the Harper Collins Study Bible pretty much say that it was simply a false prophecy. I don't find that answer satisfying and am convinced there is more than that. But where exactly is the segue in time?
    For what was given to everyone for the use of all, you have taken for your exclusive use. The earth belongs not to the rich, but to everyone. - Ambrose, 4th century AD

    All cruelty springs from weakness. - Seneca the Younger

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    I am waiting for a response here, because of my interest in the Book of Daniel and the problems it has among Jews, academics, and with some Christians. In Christianity in general it is an important Book of the OT.

    The connection between Daniel 11 and 12 are a problem I would like some input from others.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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    I don't think there is a segue. I think Daniel 12 is referring to the first century, and the resurrection imagery is merely symbolic. If you compare the reference to Michael to the reference in Revelation 12, then the events seem to be referring to a time near to the birth of Christ. I think the end of Daniel 11 is referring to Herod the Great.

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    Just to add my voice: I too am interested in how others exegete what looks like a tough passage.

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    If I get a chance to head up to the seminary in the next week, I'll stop by the library. There's a book there that might shed some light. (It's 30-45 minutes away from where I live and I take my courses online so I don't head up there that often.)
    For what was given to everyone for the use of all, you have taken for your exclusive use. The earth belongs not to the rich, but to everyone. - Ambrose, 4th century AD

    All cruelty springs from weakness. - Seneca the Younger

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    The events in Daniel 11 seem to correspond pretty clearly to specific events before the time of Christ (Antiochus Epiphanes being a clear referent in Daniel 11:31). As far as I know, nobody disputes this.

    Daniel 12, on the other hand, is generally understood as eschatalogical; about the final judgment. However, there doesn't seem to be a clear segue between the two when I read it. It seems to portray it pretty clearly as something that will happen right after the previous events; without a big gap in history. The notes in the Harper Collins Study Bible pretty much say that it was simply a false prophecy. I don't find that answer satisfying and am convinced there is more than that. But where exactly is the segue in time?
    While Daniel 12 is indeed more eschatological, it is still anchored to the time of Antiochus Epiphanes, as can be seen from Dn 12,11. I think the fulfillment of the visionary time frames given in Chapter 12 are deliberately vague (a time, times, and a half in 12,7) and ambiguous (two different numbers of days in 12,11 & 12,12). Daniel himself is confused and is essentially told not to worry about it. Supposedly the wise will understand but not the wicked (12,10). And while some would consider themselves wise and able to figure out the code, eg, Josephus and others involved in the Judean revolt of 70 CE, Jesus seems to have discouraged people from trying to figure out the timing and admitted that he himself did not know. After the second Judaen revolt, the rabbis were evidently embarrassed by the disastrous apocalyptic fervor and demoted the book of Daniel from the very last of the major prophets to merely one of the Writings (ketuvim).
    Last edited by robrecht; 09-25-2014 at 11:42 AM.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

  7. Amen KingsGambit amen'd this post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    Daniel 12, on the other hand, is generally understood as eschatalogical; about the final judgment. However, there doesn't seem to be a clear segue between the two when I read it. It seems to portray it pretty clearly as something that will happen right after the previous events; without a big gap in history. The notes in the Harper Collins Study Bible pretty much say that it was simply a false prophecy. I don't find that answer satisfying and am convinced there is more than that. But where exactly is the segue in time?
    Note that Dan 12:2-3 speaks of "many who sleep" which does not suggest a final judgment of all people. This event does not therefore have to happen at the end of all time.

    By distinction 12:13 could be sort of a final date -- "But go your way till the end. And you shall rest and shall stand in your allotted place at the end of the days."

    If you are interested, I can find the links to explain the timing of fulfillment of Daniel within the first century.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robrecht View Post
    While Daniel 12 is indeed more eschatological, it is still anchored to the time of Antiochus Epiphanes, as can be seen from Dn 12,11. I think the fulfillment of the visionary time frames given in Chapter 12 are deliberately vague (a time, times, and a half in 12,7) and ambiguous (two different numbers of days in 12,11 & 12,12). Daniel himself is confused and is essentially told not to worry about it. Supposedly the wise will understand but not the wicked (12,10). And while some would consider themselves wise and able to figure out the code, eg, Josephus and others involved in the Judean revolt of 70 CE, Jesus seems to have discouraged people from trying to figure out the timing and admitted that he himself did not know. After the second Judaen revolt, the rabbis were evidently embarrassed by the disastrous apocalyptic fervor and demoted the book of Daniel from the very last of the major prophets to merely one of the Writings (ketuvim).
    That is very helpful, thanks. My study Bible's notes state that the second date in 12 is a later recalculation but I assume that if true that would have taken place well before the Judean revolt.
    For what was given to everyone for the use of all, you have taken for your exclusive use. The earth belongs not to the rich, but to everyone. - Ambrose, 4th century AD

    All cruelty springs from weakness. - Seneca the Younger

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    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    That is very helpful, thanks. My study Bible's notes state that the second date in 12 is a later recalculation but I assume that if true that would have taken place well before the Judean revolt.
    I think the first number of days was also a recalculation of 'a time, times, and a half', considering 'times' to be exactly two times, with a 'time' being interpreted to be a year, thus 1290 days is almost exactly three and one half 365-day periods. Some Judaeans, eg, those at Qumran, kept a 365-day solar calendar at the time while others kept a lunar calendar (and still do) that utilized a variety of mechanisms to make it correspond to a solar year. Mark's interpretation is similar to that of Josephus, his contemporary, except Mark sees Jesus as the new ruler of an eternal kingdom, whereas Josephus thought this was Vespasian. Even Josephus saw the destruction of the Temple to be wrought by God.
    Last edited by robrecht; 09-25-2014 at 12:32 PM.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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    Greetings KingsGambit,

    I am not sure of what real problem you have with the latter part of Daniel 11 and Daniel 12. There is considerable detail up to Daniel 11:39 and I believe this has been fulfilled. Daniel 11:40 then speaks of the time of the end and the dominant feature is an invasion by the King of the North, and his ultimate end. I understand that this invasion is yet future and parallel with the events of Ezekiel 38. Daniel 12:2 then speaks of the resurrection of the faithful and some of the wicked. The above are only a few details of prophecy and events at the return of the Lord Jesus Christ. Other prophecies that help to fill in this overall picture are Isaiah 2, Micah 4, Daniel 2, Zechariah 14 and Acts 3:19-21. The outcome of these events is the establishment of the Kingdom of God upon the earth for 1000 years, with Christ seated on the throne of David in Jerusalem

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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