Where are the boundaries? A review of OTC Theology

[Nahum]

To propitiate (hilasmos) means to appease, to pacify, to assuage. If Christ propitiated, then could it ever be that those for whom He propitiated would be lost? Not if the true Christ propitiated. The false christ of universal atonement is the propitiation for everyone without exception, yet some for whom this christ propitiated end up in hell. What kind of propitiation is that? It is a false propitiation.

First Nahum, no matter what human reasoning you use you can not deny scripture. John clearly points to propitiation beyond believers - "not only for OUR sins, but for the sins of the whole world." Now you may not like this - but it is scripture.

And you have yet to answer this - if Christ propitiated for your sins (as an elect) two thousand years ago, how was it that you were once under God's wrath?

Could you please provide some Scriptures that say that the elect were once under God's wrath?

Thanks,

Nahum

[Nahum]

To propitiate (hilasmos) means to appease, to pacify, to assuage. If Christ propitiated, then could it ever be that those for whom He propitiated would be lost? Not if the true Christ propitiated. The false christ of universal atonement is the propitiation for everyone without exception, yet some for whom this christ propitiated end up in hell. What kind of propitiation is that? It is a false propitiation.

First Nahum, no matter what human reasoning you use you can not deny scripture. John clearly points to propitiation beyond believers - "not only for OUR sins, but for the sins of the whole world." Now you may not like this - but it is scripture.

How do you know that John does not mean believing Jews when he says OUR? And how do you know that John does not mean believing Gentiles when he says WHOLE WORLD?

Nahum

[Nahum]

How do you know that John does not mean believing Jews when he says OUR? And how do you know that John does not mean believing Gentiles when he says WHOLE WORLD?

Nahum

Some verses that speak of the "whole world":

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2

First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. Romans 1:8

We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one. 1 John 5:19

So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Revelation 12:9

Interpreting what a word means in light of the context and in light of the "analogy of faith" when interpreting the phrase "whole world" would be very prudent.

Nahum

[seer]

Could you please provide some Scriptures that say that the elect were once under God's wrath?

Are you saying that you were born justified? Ephesians 2:

"And you he made alive, when you were dead through the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience. Among these we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of body and mind, and so we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."

Just a side note Nahum - what do you guys at OTC think about christians being involved in politics?

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Regarding "world" as used in 1 John 2:2 and elsewhere:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to everyone believing, both to Jew first, and to Greek; for in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; even as it has been written, "But the just shall live by faith" (Romans 1:16-17).

Notice the phrase "both to Jew first, and to Greek." This means the "world." Those of Jewish nationality are included, and those of non-Jewish nationality are included.

Yes, exactly! The world means all people, Jews and Gentiles. Especially "the whole world." Glad to agree!

How about my question, though? Does God give the command to repent with a purpose to bring about repentance? And will God's word fail in its purpose?

Blessings,
Lee

[GoBahnsen]

Could you please provide some Scriptures that say that the elect were once under God's wrath?

Are you saying that you were born justified? Ephesians 2:

"And you he made alive, when you were dead through the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience. Among these we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of body and mind, and so we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."

Just a side note Nahum - what do you guys at OTC think about christians being involved in politics?

Good question seer. I don't think Nahum followed my advice. But that's ok, we're here to learn from one another, I hope. I agree with you seer, the elect are at one time, children of wrath, even as others.

[seer]

Some verses that speak of the "whole world":

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2

First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. Romans 1:8

We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one. 1 John 5:19

So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Revelation 12:9

Interpreting what a word means in light of the context and in light of the "analogy of faith" when interpreting the phrase "whole world" would be very prudent.

Nahum

The problem is Nahum that you believe the "whole world" only includes the elect. And John uses the same term in the same letter as you know:

"We know that we are of God, and the whole world is in the power of the evil one."

So does the whole world here only include the elect?

[seer]

Good question seer. I don't think Nahum followed my advice. But that's ok, we're here to learn from one another, I hope. I agree with you seer, the elect are at one time, children of wrath, even as others.

Yes GB, but the question is - how is that possible if Christ turned away God wrath from the elect two thousand years ago. And years before Paul wrote Ephesians?

[GoBahnsen]

The problem is Nahum that you believe the "whole world" only includes the elect. And John uses the same term in the same letter as you know:

"We know that we are of God, and the whole world is in the power of the evil one."

So does the whole world here only include the elect?

Back to the basics, context, context, context. Calvinists (of which Nahum claims not to be) also point out that if you're going to make world always mean every single person, then that can be very absurd at times. World has a meaning determined by context and sometimes just plain common sense, when trying to understand the term in the light of comparing scripture with scripture.

But we humans do have a hard time not reading our Theology into the text. Pure, unbiased, objective exegesis is nearly impossible to get out of anyone.

Yes GB, but the question is - how is that possible if Christ turned away God wrath from the elect two thousand years ago. And years before Paul wrote Ephesians?

I don't see the big deal seer. God determines to save an elect people (all true Christians/believers, Calvinists, inconsistent Arminianians, and whoever else believes in Christ), but they arrive on the planet just like everyone else. In the flesh and only the flesh. They are by nature children of wrath.

That's part of the mystery of God's ways. Why not have the elect, come into the world regenerate, born again from the womb, like John the Baptist? Why not? Well simply put....because that's not the way God wants it to be.

So although Christ really did propitiate the wrath of God forever from His people. We aren't born His people in the full sense of it. His wrath abides on the elect until God saves them from that wrath.

Let's see if I can use a word picture. The son of a king murders a man and the very law of the king apprehends the son and puts him on death row awaiting execution. The wrath of the King's law with it's penalties hangs over the boy's head.

The people of the kingdom do not know the secret counsel of the King's heart toward the boy, nor the boy for that matter. So wrath continues to abide until one day when the King officially pardons the boy, he did not have to pardon.

It was always in the Kings heart to set him free (he was like one of the elect), but there came a day when the boy was actually set free and at that time the law had no more power over him. So we see how one can be elect and yet be under wrath (though the wrath was propitiated). In other words, the wrath was never going to touch the elect, but the elect had to be officially saved from it anyway. Does that help?

We can do this with anything. Why get married, as long as you live together and love each other, etc., etc.? Why? Because until you do you're a fornicator. Ceremony and vows before God and man really do matter. Same with the elect. They may be elect, but they don't know it until they come to Christ in faith, thus escaping the wrath of God. It's just the way it is. And lately seer, you've been one to really question some pretty basic things. I guess you're just re-thinking your faith from a-z... eh?

[Nahum]

Good question seer. I don't think Nahum followed my advice. But that's ok, we're here to learn from one another, I hope. I agree with you seer, the elect are at one time, children of wrath, even as others.

What was your advice GoBahnsen?

Nahum

[Nahum]

The problem is Nahum that you believe the "whole world" only includes the elect. And John uses the same term in the same letter as you know:

"We know that we are of God, and the whole world is in the power of the evil one."

So does the whole world here only include the elect?

Whenever I see the word "world" or "whole world" I do not necessarily believe that it only includes the elect. It depends on what context I find the words "world" and "whole world" in.


It seems that you want "world" to always (or almost always) mean every human being without exception. To show you that "world" does not mean "every human being without exception," I'll give you some verses:


Joh 12:19 Then the Pharisees said to themselves, Observe that you gain nothing. Behold, the world has gone after Him.


1Jo 3:1 See what manner of love the Father has given us, that we may be called children of God. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.



1Jo 3:13 Do not marvel, my brothers, if the world hates you.


1Jo 4:5 They are of the world; because of this they speak of the world, and the world hears them.

1Jo 5:19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the evil.


Obviously, "world" does not mean "every human being without exception" in any of these passages.

Regarding your question about 1 John 5:19: "We know that we are of God, and the whole world is in the power of the evil one."

You [seer] asked: <<So does the whole world here only include the elect?>>

In 1 John 5:19, the two "we's" include the elect and the "whole world" would include the reprobate. Now, if someone wanted to argue that "whole world" could also include the presently unregenerate elect, then I would have to disagree since I don't think the context allows it.

But for the sake of argument, even if the "whole world" that is in the power of the evil one included the unregenerate elect, it really wouldn't make much difference since Christ came to destroy the work of the devil by His death on the cross.

And since Christ is a Substitute and Representative for His people, not one of those for whom He died will remain in the power of the evil one. To assert that only one person could go to hell for whom Christ died, is to assert that Christ did not by His death, destroy him who had the power of death. Or does Christ need the sinner's free-will assistance in destroying the devil's work?

"Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage" (Hebrews 2:14-15).



Nahum

[seer]

Back to the basics, context, context, context. Calvinists (of which Nahum claims not to be) also point out that if you're going to make world always mean every single person, then that can be very absurd at times. World has a meaning determined by context and sometimes just plain common sense, when trying to understand the term in the light of comparing scripture with scripture.

This is the problem GB, the "our" in 1 John 2:2 would naturally be pointing to believers. Unless one can show that John is only addressing Jews. Second, John's later use of "the whole world" (5:19) would also naturally include the non-elect. Don't you agree?

[seer]

Joh 12:19 Then the Pharisees said to themselves, Observe that you gain nothing. Behold, the world has gone after Him.


1Jo 3:1 See what manner of love the Father has given us, that we may be called children of God. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.



1Jo 3:13 Do not marvel, my brothers, if the world hates you.


1Jo 4:5 They are of the world; because of this they speak of the world, and the world hears them.

1Jo 5:19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the evil.

Nahum, could you show where any use of the "world" in the NT would not naturally include the non-elect?

[GoBahnsen]

Back to the basics, context, context, context. Calvinists (of which Nahum claims not to be) also point out that if you're going to make world always mean every single person, then that can be very absurd at times. World has a meaning determined by context and sometimes just plain common sense, when trying to understand the term in the light of comparing scripture with scripture.

This is the problem GB, the "our" in 1 John 2:2 would naturally be pointing to believers. Unless one can show that John is only addressing Jews. Second, John's later use of "the whole world" (5:19) would also naturally include the non-elect. Don't you agree?

Those whom John was addressing may well have been a mix of Jew and Greek. That is not important to me. But when you have Christ really propitiating for the non elect, then you've got to explain why they end up facing the supposed propitiated wrath. And the non elect will face this wrath.

If you want to say that a non elect can repent and that Christ is his propitiation, that makes no sense, because if he repents, he shows he is elect.

[GoBahnsen]

What was your advice GoBahnsen?

Nahum

To be careful in your trying to explain that God causes people to sin, even Christians. You seem to rush in headlong into a pile of thorns.