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Thread: Papias and the death of Judas

  1. #11
    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrel View Post
    ... (ii) any teaching which comes with the full authority of the Catholic Church's ordinary magisterium requires and demands the intellectual assent of all Catholics who are able to give it intellectual assent, and it absolutely prohibits intellectual dissent. If I could establish both of those theses, would that change your mind??
    With respect to your number ii, I would not be able in good conscience to give intellectual assent and I do not believe the church absolutely prohibits intellectual dissent. Witness the continued friendship between Benedict and Hans Küng.

    Sorry Christian3 for the thread drift!
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

  2. #12
    tWebber
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    Yes, sorry indeed. Robrecht, we can move this to PM'ing if you'd like. However, I want to refer you again to my paper, where I provide an explicit elaboration on religious assent. Benedict says that if one cannot give their intellectual assent, they have regardless the duty to remain open, and to pray, but they are simply and strictly not allowed to slip into any comfortable intellectual dissent. This can be found in Donum Veritatis, which was, of course, written by Pope Benedict XVI.

    Moreover, friendship has nothing to do with orthodoxy; also, since Donum Veritatis only comes with the authority of the ordinary magisterium, somebody who is liable to reject that authority anyway isn't liable to take it very seriously. What I try to show in the paper is that it is flatly inconsistent to reject the authority of the ordinary magisterium, and affirm the Catholic faith.


  3. #13
    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrel View Post
    Yes, sorry indeed. Robrecht, we can move this to PM'ing if you'd like. However, I want to refer you again to my paper, where I provide an explicit elaboration on religious assent. Benedict says that if one cannot give their intellectual assent, they have regardless the duty to remain open, and to pray, but they are simply and strictly not allowed to slip into any comfortable intellectual dissent. This can be found in Donum Veritatis, which was, of course, written by Pope Benedict XVI.

    Moreover, friendship has nothing to do with orthodoxy; also, since Donum Veritatis only comes with the authority of the ordinary magisterium, somebody who is liable to reject that authority anyway isn't liable to take it very seriously. What I try to show in the paper is that it is flatly inconsistent to reject the authority of the ordinary magisterium, and affirm the Catholic faith.
    Feel free to PM me. I am very open. I pray fervently. And my dissent is hardly comfortable, at least not with respect to some members of the hierarchy and lost career opportunities. But God, the Paraclete, and fellow members of the people of God more than make up for that worldly discomfort. I never implied that friendship constituted orthodoxy. I think you misunderstood or I was not clear enough. What I said was that I do not believe the church absolutely prohibits intellectual dissent. I did not maintain that dissent was orthodoxy; that would be oxymoronic. And yet, despite the several positions of dissent publically and vigorously espoused by Hans Küng, he remains a Roman Catholic and a priest in good standing. And he continues to be on friendly terms with the Pope Emeritus. Benedict felt no need to disavow their friendship to prevent the possibility of scandal in the church and even issued a press release confirming their friendly relations. He was not excommunicated, defrocked, or silenced. Clearly, the church does not absolutely prohibit dissent. I take church authority very seriously, but I do not pretend to affirm all Roman Catholic doctrines in every detail, but am nonetheless surprisingly orthodox, even conservative on many points. I am actually much more attracted to the larger catholic faith and orthodoxy in the original and true sense of the word 'catholic', ie, καθ᾽ ὅλος, kath' holos, 'according to the whole' church. My theological perspective has been shaped very much by what I consider to be some key emphases that can be found within Eastern Orthodoxy, and occasionally in the West, eg, Irenaeus, John Scottus Eriugena, Thomas Aquinas, Cardinals Henri de Lubac and Avery Dulles, etc. I'm in very good company, surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses.
    Last edited by robrecht; 02-22-2014 at 03:52 PM.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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    I just love how the ECFs tell such tall tales.

  5. #15
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omniskeptical View Post
    I just love how the ECFs tell such tall tales.
    That's . . . special.
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    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robrecht View Post
    Yes, I know you were merely entertaining the idea. It's nice to meet another catholic, by the way, but I do not think we are bound to accept this harmonization. That said, I could be wrong as I have not read much of the catechism of John Paul II or Benedict's scriptural musings (is that what your referring to?), but I have spent approximately 25 years in catholic education.
    ## As for Dei Verbum 11, which is often mentioned in this connection, ISTM that has to be interpreted by preceding Papal teaching, such as Providentissimus (1893). The Ratzinger Note of 1998 affirms total inerrancy, but without saying in what it consists; which is not that helpful.

    That said - what is a contradiction ? Interpretation affects claims of inerrancy: if Methuselah is regarded by 18 centuries of exegesis as having attained an age of 969 years, and the interpretation then becomes that M. is a tribe or deity or a myth or something other than an individual historical human being, one can still believe in total inerrancy - but it does not guarantee the fixity of the meaning of texts. Therefore it does not guarantee the content of the truth of a passage - when, that is, a passage can be called true or false: "Sing unto the Lord all the earth" is an exhortation, not a judgement that a statement is asserting a truth: & many passages are of this kind. "Save me, O Lord, for the waters have come up to my neck" is a plea for help, not an assertion that X is or is not the case: so it is not clear how it can be judged to be inerroneous, or erroneous.

    And, is inerrancy posited of each and every assertion, or in the theological meaning of the Bible as whole, or in the theology of the Biblical books ? Or is it posited of the Bible at all three levels ? That is just a handful of the problems that arise from positing the total inerrancy of the Bible. There is problem of the effect of variant readings, and the semantic effects of the absence of vowel points from the Hebrew text followed by the supplying of them.

    It is not at all clear that the notion of total Biblical inerrancy plays any useful theological function; for instance, as Christians, readers give priority to certain passages over others: the gospels trump the Torah & rest of the OT, which one reason the Books of Esther & Joshua are less central to the Church's understanding of Christ than the gospels. So in practice, the OT is in effect relative to the revelation of God in Christ; IOW, it is treated as less adequate than the NT witness to Christ. But that is tantamount to saying that the OT is not totally inerrant; that it needed correction.

    And of course there is the small matter of evolution - it is hard to believe it would have caused such a fuss, had it not been for the imagined need to square it with Genesis 1-11. Which need would in turn have been much less pressing, had the Bible not been considered "free from all error".

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