Is The Trinity Christian Theology Or Pagan Philosophy?

[barryrob]

IS THE TRINITY CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY OR PAGAN PHILOSOPHY?

The following quote is from the Watchtower Magazine and is commenting on what Jehovah's Christian Witnesses believe and teach as to the trinity doctrine's origins:-

"Watchtower 1992 August 1st page 22 - Part 4-When and How Did the Trinity Doctrine Develop?

How It Developed

The Trinity doctrine began its slow development over a period of centuries. The Trinitarian ideas of Greek philosophers such as Plato, who lived several centuries before Christ, gradually crept into church teachings. As The Church of the First Three Centuries says [page 52]:

“We maintain that the doctrine of the Trinity was of gradual and comparatively late formation; that it had its origin in a source entirely foreign from that of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures; that it grew up, and was ingrafted on Christianity, through the hands of the Platonizing Fathers; that in the time of Justin, and long after, the distinct nature and inferiority of the Son were universally taught; and that only the first shadowy outline of the Trinity had then become visible.”




The above statement has been challenged and condemned as heretical by many who also claim to be Christians and members of Christendom's Churches, so it is well to ask do Jehovah's Witnesses have any support in taking this stand from Christendom's own theologians and secular historians?

WHAT IS THE TRUE NATURE OF THE GOD THAT THE

CHURCHES OF CHRISTENDOM WORSHIP?

The following is an answer to the above question on the pagan Egyptian/Greek philosophical origin of the trinity concept or to quote 'Bakers Dictionary of Theology page 36:-


"The Alexandrian school with its Platonic emphasis was the popular school of it time. In its more moderate form it set the christological pattern for many centuries."



and how it, the "Platonic emphasis" or pagan Greek Traditions, were absorbed into and became 'Christian doctrine' as the "many centuries" extend down to our time, you will read how this became so-called orthodox understanding or the 'Creeds' on God's nature by the Churches and sects of Christendom; which is not the understanding to be found in true and uncontaminated Hebrew and Christian Theology as the following is an attempt to explain.



To answer the above question "What is the true nature of the God of Christendom's churches?" involves the study of THEOLOGY. This the term used for the study of God or the gods and the methods used in therein to attain to the enlightenment of the person(s) of the nature God or the gods (Christian view is seen at Ephesians 1:15-23). Theology is defined in The Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology page 915 as "the science of things divine", thus all Christians are or should try to be theologians as they are pursuing this knowledge, so as to apply it in their daily lives as they try to reflect God's image and in following the example of his First Son (the "Logos") the Lord Jesus Christ (Ephesians 5:1; 1 Peter 2:21). An interesting comment about this "science" is made by the late professor Werner Jaeger in his book 'The Theology of the Early Greek Philosophers' page 4:-



"The word 'theology' is much older than the concept of natural theology and the Varronian trichotomy. But theology is also a specific creation of the Greek mind. This fact is not always rightly understood and deserves special emphasis, for it concerns not only the word but even more the thing which it expresses. Theology is a mental attitude which is characteristically Greek, and has something to do with the great importance which the Greek thinkers attribute to the logos, for the word theologia means the approach to God or the gods (theoi) by means of the logos."



Along a similar line, on the ancient Greek influence, but in this case one of a greater magnitude having more influence than any other, is the following quote made in the book entitled 'The Mystery Of Salvation' The Story Of God's Gift, A report by the Doctrine Commission of the General Synod of the Church of England on "The world-wide context of mission" in the relationship of "Christ and the world faiths" pp.148-419:-



"Mission is clearly an imperative everywhere, including Britain, but much can be learnt from the practice of mission in a multi-faith context elsewhere, both at the present time and in the twenty centuries of Christian history. All we can give are a few glimpses from that history.
As the Christian gospel encountered the gentile world questions inevitably arose about the relationship between the Christian faith and other religious traditions. In the writings of the Greek apologists, most notably Justin Martyr, there is a willingness to recognise the religious philosophy of Platonism in particular, as providing a preparation for the gospel. Just as the Jewish prophets pointed forward to Christ, so a preparation for the gospel can be traced in Greek philosophy. Just as the revelation of God to Moses at the burning bush was interpreted as the appearance of the divine Logos, so that the same was seen as present in the 'seeds' on the word in the truth witnessed to by pagan philosophers. Christ is therefore the fulfiller of other religious yearnings as he is of the Jewish prophets.
Not all Christian theologians were willing to follow this line. Others, most notably perhaps Tertullian, drew a sharp line between Greek philosophy and the Jewish/Christian revelation, asking 'What has Athens to do with Jerusalem?' There were many who characterised pagan religion as 'demonic'. And even those like Justin who had a positive attitude towards pagan philosophy, tended to combine this with a clear condemnation of pagan worship."



In the above the Church of England synod admits its to the use of Greek philosophy in the formulation of it's doctrines and in the following quote which is taken from the 'Catechism of the Catholic Church' (pocket edition) copyright 1994 Geoffrey Chapmam-Libreia Editrice Vaticano page 59, It is worth bearing in mind that the Catholic Church establish the Trinity doctrine:-



"251 In order to articulate the dogma of the Trinity, the Church had to develop her own terminology with the help of certain notions of philosophical origin: 'substance', 'person' or 'hypostasis', relation' and so on. In doing this, she did not submit the faith to human wisdom, but gave a new and unprecedented meaning to these terms, which from then on would be used to signify an ineffable mystery, infinitely beyond all that we can humanly understand'. (ftn, Paul VI CPG § 2.)"



In the above statement "with the help of certain philosophical origin" this can be non other than pagan Greek philosophy terminology, as will be shown latter that the early Church fathers used it and admitted it into the Catholic Church as show by the Church of England Synod in the previous but one quote. Also note the italics in the above quote it says this use of philosophy was "not" a submission " to human wisdom", this cannot be the case as Greek philosophy means 'love of wisdom', also it says "unprecedented", but if it was the use of Scripture then how can it be unprecedented and again as it -philosophy- is not from the Bible (the Bible is Theological) so it must be from a human source, so this is a blatant contradiction. We should remember that during the period in which the trinity doctrine was being formulated it was also a time of great syncratic religious activity e.g. Gnosticism was a mix of Egyptian, Hellenistic philosophy and Judaic and Christian theology and likewise the Phibionites and others, this kind of thinking wrongly flooded into the Christian congregation as Jehovah's Witnesses claim as the origin of the trinity is also noted by John Gwyn Griffiths in 'Triads and Trinity' page 223:-



"The influence of Greek terminology is apparent from time to time in Christian writings about the trinity, and since these writings were mostly in Greek up to the time of Augustine, it was inevitable that the Greek philosophical and religious traditions should be reflected. Its philosophical rigour in unquestioned and at its best it rivals Plato himself."



If the above comment is erroneous, why should Quintus Tertullian (160-220 C.E.) the Carthaginian theologian and so-called 'Church Father', ask the questions "What indeed has Athens to do with Jerusalem? What has the Academy to de with the Church? what have heretics to do with Christians?" and then add "Away with all attempts to produce a Stoic, Platonic and dialectic Christianity" (see A new Eusebius Edited by J. Stevens SPCK London p.178) it is because in his day he perceived that pagan Greek philosophy was being exploited and added to Biblical teachings, otherwise why ask the question? As philosophy has its roots in pagan theology it must not be amalgamated with Bible's teachings which is confirmed by a comment in the book 'Students History of Philosophy' by Arthur Kenyon Rogers, Ph.D. page 195-196 which reads as follows:-



" The spiritualization of the world in which Neo-Platonism results, and the absence of any adequate feeling for natural law, opened the way for an appeal to non-physical agencies . . . The world is a great hierarchy of souls - Gods, demons, men, - and mystical affinities and relationships between souls, which find expression in divination, astrology, and magical rites, take the place of sober investigation. . . . Historically, this last outcome of Greek thought gets an importance which it does not possess intrinsically, through the fact of its making itself the champion of Paganism, in the now losing struggle which this was carrying on with Christianity. The struggle was wholly unsuccessful. The future belonged to Christianity ; philosophy could hope to survive, not by antagonising it, and joining forces with its rival, but by accepting the new and vigorous contribution which it was making it the life of the world, and moulding this into its own form."



A further interesting comment can be found in the book 'Pentecostalism' A Theological Viewpoint by Donald L. Gelpi, S.J. [a Jesuit priest, who teaches philosophy at Loyola University, New Orleans. 1971] pages 108-109:-



"The Subordination theorise of Origen and later, those of Arius were prepared for speculatively by the orthodox Platonism of Clement of Alexandria. Interpreting the gospel of John in frankly philosophical categories, Clement assimilated the Father figuratively to the Platonic One, who is the transcendent source of the universe. Then, taking a hint from Johannine theology, he likened the Word of God the nous, or intelligence, of middle Platonic thought. While Clement himself was cautious in suggesting possible speculative parallels between divine revelation and Platonic metaphysics, his suggestive description of the Son as a Platonic hypostasis, or subsistent entity, paved the way for more dramatic theological developments that were soon to follow."



In the afore sited quotations we can see the idea of being enlightened about the ancient pagan Greek god(s) through the Philosophical or Metaphysical 'Logos' (Word, Reason, mind of god etc.); therefore in the above can be seen a definite influence of pagan Greek thinking on men of the past and today, as confirmed by the Synod of the Church of England, the Catholic Catechism and a Jesuit priest, in that many people are looking for God by studying theologies of one kind or another, and in some cases using God's written word whether Christian or not (supposed), and specifically through the 'Logos' (Jesus) in the Christian context. In a similar vain in the book 'Grammar of the Septuagint Greek' by F.C. Conybeare and St. George Stock page 162 they make this Comment on what the Greeks through when translating the Bible from Hebrew into Greek at Ex 3:14 - "'ho On: the difference of the gender between this expression and the Greek to on marks the difference between Hebrew and Greek philosophy in the conception of the Deity. To the one God was a person, to the other a principle."


Just a few thoughts to start of with!

Barryrob

[Sparko]

Hi Barryrob,

Rather than answering your post point by point, I think this is a good place to just post an article on what we Trinitarians really do believe and why we believe it. It is an article I wrote for my web site a few years ago.

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Discovering the Trinity for Yourself

By John Sparks

(some of the research for this paper was gathered from the CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS AND RESEARCH MINISTRY Web Site. Please visit them for many many articles on the Christian faith and defense of Christian Doctrines)

Introduction

The word Trinity was coined to describe the way that the Bible describes God. The Bible teaches in various places that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God, and yet, it also teaches that there is only ONE God, and that Jesus is not the Father, or Holy Spirit, and that the Holy Spirit is not the Father or Jesus, and so on. So since the Bible is infallible and is the true word of God, we must conclude that there are three persons who are all fully God, and yet there is only ONE God. So the there are three "who"s and one "what." This means that God is one in substance and essence, but three in persons. This concept is called the Trinity. The word doesn't appear in the Bible (neither does the word "Bible" for that matter), but the concept is clearly taught by scripture. We will discuss how this can be below.


Part 1 The history of the concept of the Trinity:

The trinity wasn't "invented" in the fourth century as many believe. It goes back to the very beginning of the church. It is also taught, though not explicitly, in the Bible (I will go into that later). We have many records from early church fathers, going back to the time of John (near 100 ad). I will be quoting some of these sources below, showing that they believed in the Trinity and that Jesus was actually God (note: When a Trinitarian talks about Jesus being God, he doesn't mean that Jesus is the Father. Jesus is God, the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.)


Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).

"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: ...one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all...'" (Against Heresies X.l)

Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation...[which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Agn. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).

Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian.

"If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority...There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).

"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)

"Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification..." (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).

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If, as the anti-Trinitarians maintain, the Trinity is not a biblical doctrine and was never taught until the council of Nicea in 325, then why do these quotes exist? The answer is simple: the Trinity is a biblical doctrine and it was taught before the council of Nicea in 325 A.D.

Part of the reason that the Trinity doctrine was not "officially" taught until the time of the Council of Nicea is because Christianity was illegal until shortly before the council. It wasn't really possible for official Christian groups to meet and discuss doctrine. For the most part, they were fearful of making public pronouncements concerning their faith.

Additionally, if a group had attacked the person of Adam, the early church would have responded with an official doctrine of who Adam was. As it was, the person of Christ was attacked. When the Church defended the deity of Christ, the doctrine of the Trinity was further defined.

The early church believed in the Trinity, as is evidenced by the quotes above, and it wasn't necessary to really make them official. It wasn't until errors started to creep in, that councils began to meet to discuss the Trinity as well as other doctrines that came under fire.


Part 2 - Why do we believe there IS a Trinity?


Trinitarians believe that there are three persons in ONE God. Not three Gods. To believe that Jesus is divine and Son of God, but completely separate, would mean that there are TWO Gods. There is only ONE God, the old and new testament says this over and over.

If Jesus was just the Son of the Father (who is God), then he would have to either have been created by the Father (which we know he wasn't, since ALL things were created by and through him) or he would have to be a second God (since like begets like. A human begets a human, a God would beget a God). So Jesus would have to be another God, or he would have to be a creature, an angel, or cherubim. We know he is not, because he accepts worship, and only God is to be worshiped. And we know that there cannot be two Gods, because the LORD in the Old Testament categorically denies any God before, beside, or after Him. That leaves only ONE logical conclusion, Jesus is the same God that the Father is. But they are two persons. So we have two persons in ONE God. The Holy Spirit is also shown to be a person and God in the New Testament (especially in John chapter 14). This makes three persons in one God. It is hard to understand, but it is the only logical explanation of the various scriptures without going to three different Gods, or saying that the Bible contradicts itself.

Below are some verses that demonstrate this reasoning:

First we must establish that there is only ONE God and no other:

"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me" (Isaiah 43:10).

The LORD's servant is Jesus (read the passage in context). The LORD says that "I am he", stating that He and the Servant are the same! Also, note no God was formed before the LORD nor after.

Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God. 7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and lay out before me what has happened since I established my ancient people, and what is yet to come-- yes, let him foretell what will come. 8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."

Next, we show that Jesus is God

In the list below, you will see that there are many passages in the Bible that equate Jesus with the God of the old testament, known as Yahweh (YHWH), or LORD, or Jehovah. There are verses in the Bible that give YHWH certain titles and attributes, and other verses that give Jesus those same attributes and titles.

YHWH is Creator

Isaiah 44:24 "This is what the LORD says-- your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

Isaiah 48:13 "My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together.

Jesus is Creator

John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Col. 1:16-17 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

YHWH is the "First and the Last"

Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."

Isaiah 48:12 "Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last."

Jesus is the "First and the Last"

Rev. 1:17 "When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: ‘Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.’"

Rev. 2:8 "To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again."

Rev. 22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

YHWH is "I AM" (ego eimi)

Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’"

Isaiah 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

See also Deut. 32.39

Jesus is "I AM" (ego eimi in Greek)

John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." (NKJV)

John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

John 13:19 "I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am He."

YHWH is Judge

Joel 3:12 "Let the nations be roused; let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat, for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side." (God is speaking)

Rom. 14:10 "You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat."

Ezekiel 34:17 "`As for you, my flock, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will judge between one sheep and another, and between rams and goats. 20 "`Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says to them: See, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. 21 Because you shove with flank and shoulder, butting all the weak sheep with your horns until you have driven them away, 22 I will save my flock, and they will no longer be plundered. I will judge between one sheep and another.

Jesus is Judge

2 Tim. 4:1 "In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge..."

2 Cor. 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."

Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

John 5: 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him

YHWH is King

Jeremiah 10:10 "But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King. When he is angry, the earth trembles; the nations cannot endure his wrath."

Isaiah 44:6-8 "This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."

See also Psalm 47

Jesus is King

Matthew 2:2 "...Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him."

Luke 23:3 So Pilate asked Jesus, "Are you the king of the Jews?" "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied.

See also John 19:21

YHWH is Savior

Isaiah 43:3 "For I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior"

Isaiah 45:21 "...And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me."

Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.

Hosea 13: 4 "But I am the LORD your God, [who brought you] out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me.

Jesus is Savior

John 4:42 "They said to the woman, ‘We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.’"

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world

YHWH is Shepherd

Psalm 23:1 Psalm 23 A psalm of David. The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want.

Isaiah 40:11 He tends his flock like a shepherd: He gathers the lambs in his arms and carries them close to his heart; he gently leads those that have young.

Ezekiel 34:11 "`For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. 15 I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign LORD. 16 I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice.

Jesus is Shepherd

John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep."

Hebrews 13:20 May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep,

See also John 10:14,16; 1 Pet. 2:25

John 10: 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

YHWH is the Rock

Deut. 32:4 "He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he."

See also 2 Sam. 22:32 and Isaiah 17:10.

Jesus is the Rock

1 Cor. 10:4 "...for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ."

See also 1 Peter 2:6-8.

YHWH is the Light

Psalm 27:1 "The LORD is my light and my salvation -- whom shall I fear?"

Isaiah 60:20 Your sun will never set again, and your moon will wane no more; the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your days of sorrow will end.

1 John 1:5 "God is light; in him there is no darkness at all."

Jesus is the Light

John 8:12 "When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

Luke 2:32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for glory to your people Israel."

See also John 1:7-9

Unless otherwise noted, all quotations are from the NIV Bible.

Some additional comparisons between the LORD and Jesus:

Isaiah 40:3 A voice of one calling: "In the desert prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God. … 9 You who bring good tidings to Zion, go up on a high mountain. You who bring good tidings to Jerusalem, lift up your voice with a shout, lift it up, do not be afraid; say to the towns of Judah, "Here is your God!" 10 See, the Sovereign LORD comes with power, and his arm rules for him. See, his reward is with him, and his recompense accompanies him.

Isaiah is talking about Jesus yet the verse clearly used the name LORD (YHWH) and specifically says "Here is your God!"

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Matthew 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us."

Immanuel means "God is with us." Jesus means "the LORD saves." Who does it say will do the saving in verse 21? Jesus.

Continued at: http://www.saveme.org/articles/trinity.htm
(edited to go to web link to avoid back-to-back posts.)

[barryrob]

In summary we see:

• Only one God
• Only one Savior.
• Only one Messiah.
• Only one Shepherd.
• Only one Creator.
• Only one Judge.
• Only God should be worshipped.

The LORD is Savior.
Jesus is Savior.

The LORD is Messiah.
Jesus is Messiah.

The Lord is the Shepherd.
Jesus is the Shepherd.

The LORD is Creator.
Jesus is Creator.

The LORD is Judge
Jesus is Judge.

The LORD is worshiped
Jesus is worshiped.

The LORD is the Father.
Jesus is NOT the Father, but Jesus does claim Equality with the Father.

Conclusion:

We see that the LORD God is Jesus, but He is also the Father, but Jesus is NOT the Father (he prays to him). So Jesus and the Father are not the same person. But they are both LORD. If the Father is the LORD, and Jesus is the LORD, and yet they are not the same person, (we will get to the Holy Spirit next), then somehow they are two persons in ONE GOD (the LORD). For there cannot be more than ONE God.

We also believe that the Holy Spirit is GOD and is a person (see above). So now we have three persons all who are God, and yet we know there is only one God. This is the logical conclusion based on the scriptures. This conclusion is called the Trinity. The name Trinity was coined around 300 AD, but as we see, the proof **is** in the scriptures and was always there. If you read the scriptures above (and even more in the Bible) and try to reconcile the claims of the LORD and Jesus, knowing the scripture is never wrong or contradicts itself, you can come to no other conclusion.

Jesus is God, the Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God. And all three are equal. Three persons in ONE GOD. Not three separate beings. ONE BEING: GOD

The Trinity is the ONLY way we have to express what we know to be true about God from reading the Bible.

You might say "But I don’t understand it." You don’t have to understand HOW it can be, you can see by the scriptures that it IS that way. You might not understand how electricity works, but you can see that it does work, and you can use it without understanding it. God is infinite, and man is finite. The very fact that we can't understand it fully is evidence of it's truth. Many cults try to tear down the concept of the Trinity, claiming that it is a contradiction and can't be understood. But as we have shown, it IS taught in the Bible, and we believe the Bible to be true. If finite man could understand completely the nature of God, then God would be less than man. We will spend eternity learning about God, and worshiping and loving Him. Surely we can't understand all that now in an instant.

"Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." -- 1 Corinthians 13:12



Copyright by John Sparks - SaveMe.org - All rights reserved. Portions and quotes gathered from www.carm.org and are copyright by them and used with permission.

So are you saying that all the titles that YHWH has can be applied to Jesus Christ?

Barryrob

[Sparko]

So are you saying that all the titles that YHWH has can be applied to Jesus Christ?

Barryrob

Well, those titles I mentioned in the article speak for themselves. Read it carefully.

[barryrob]

Well, those titles I mentioned in the article speak for themselves. Read it carefully.

I have read it, but it does not mention all the titles mentioned in the Bible so do they apply to both persons?

Barryrob

[Sparko]

YHWH is the name of the triune God. Think of it as the "family" name. It can apply to all or any of the three persons in the Godhead, and so, many titles that apply to YHWH can apply to all three persons of the Godhead, but each person of the Godhead can have also have a specific name or title attached only to them, such as Jesus being the name of the Son, or "Son of God" being a title attached to Jesus.

[barryrob]

YHWH is the name of the triune God. Think of it as the "family" name. It can apply to all or any of the three persons in the Godhead, and so, many titles that apply to YHWH can apply to all three persons of the Godhead, but each person of the Godhead can have also have a specific name or title attached only to them, such as Jesus being the name of the Son, or "Son of God" being a title attached to Jesus.

An interesting philosophy! Is it Biblical?

1. "I am Jehovah (Heb. vuvh, YHWH). That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory,

2. God's Son was instructed to be called "Jesus" by God’s angel at Matt 1:21. He like God as you say have titles but they are not Personal Names.

3. According the what I have read in the Bible the name of the Holy Spirit is Holy Spirit or power of God or the like. I find no personal name for it?

Just a point or two. I can see your personal Philosophy but I do not see Biblical Theology.

Barryrob

[Sparko]

An interesting philosophy! Is it Biblical?

Yes. Read my article. It is the logical conclusion and has been accepted as biblical teaching from the very earliest church fathers and the writers of the NT themselves.

[barryrob]

Yes. Read my article. It is the logical conclusion and has been accepted as biblical teaching from the very earliest church fathers and the writers of the NT themselves.

TRUE BUT WHY?
Departure from monotheism of the Hebrew Bible and the birth of Trinitarinsm
The theological view of the Israelites on the trinity dogma, which would include Jesus, John and Paul etc., is expressed well by Arnold Toynbee in his book 'A study of History' page 419, note the bold print:-

"... Christianity went the furthest in Hellenizing itself. Besides presenting itself visually in the established form of Hellenic art, Christianity, Like its forerunner Stoicisim expressed itself intellectually in term of Hellenic* philosophy. More than that, its crucial departure from its parent religion, Judaism - namely, the belief that Jesus was the son of God and was, in fact, one of the three persons in a triune godhead - was, from the standpoint of Jewish monotheism, a shocking concession to two Hellenic religious aberrations: man-worship and polytheism."
*Greek

Church’fathers’:-
"LOGOS (Greek “word”) a term in Greek, Hebrew, and Christian philosophy and theology. It was used by Greek philosophers as the embodiment of “reason” in the universe. Under Greek influence the Jews came to conceive of “wisdom” as an aspect of God’s activity. The Jewish philosopher Philo (1st century AD) attempted to reconcile Platonic, Stoic, and Hebrew philosophy by identifying the logos with the Jewish idea of “wisdom”. Several of the New Testament writers took over Philo’s conception of the logos, which they identified with Christ and hence with the second person of the Trinity."-Webster's Concise Interactive Encyclopaedia.

"Plato's influence throughout the history of philosophy has been monumental. When he died, Speusippus became head of the Academy. The school continued in existence until AD 529, when it was closed by the Byzantine emperor Justinian I, who objected to its pagan teachings. Plato's impact on Jewish thought is apparent in the work of the 1st-century Alexandrian philosopher Philo Judaeus. Neoplatonism, founded by the 3rd-century philosopher Plotinus, was an important later development of Platonism. The theologians Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and St. Augustine were early Christian exponents of a Platonic perspective. Platonic ideas have had a crucial role in the development of Christian theology and also in medieval Islamic thought.
During the Renaissance, the primary focus of Platonic influence was the Florentine Academy, founded in the 15th century near Florence. Under the leadership of Marsilio Ficino, members of the Academy studied Plato in the original Greek. In England, Platonism was revived in the 17th century by Ralph Cudworth and others who became known as the Cambridge Platonists. Plato's influence has been extended into the 20th century by such thinkers as Alfred North Whitehead, who once paid him tribute by describing the history of philosophy as simply “a series of footnotes to Plato.”-Microsoft Encarta 96.

Further on the borrowing from the pagan:-
"In the history leading to the Christianity of Europe and its theological descendants, the initially encountered antecedent religious and theological interpretation was that provided to ancient Mediterranean culture by Greece's religious thinkers. As we have noted, there was much appreciation in this meeting. There was also conflict."-Systematic Theology Vol 1 The Triune God by Bobert W. Jenson p.16

"Of the men of learning attracted to the Library and Mouseion of Alexandria, grammarians and poets were amounts the most important, first attracted there by the school of grammar established by Zenodotus. A school of philosophy was also set up in Alexandria. In the Alexandrian school the philosophies of the east and the west meet, and attempts were made to join the two; hence, Alexandrian philosophers were known as 'Eclectics'. Some philosophers renounced the scepticisms of this school and tried instead to unite the philosophy of the east with that of Plato; they became the New Platonists, the most illustrious of whom, in the first century AD, was Philo, a Jew of Alexandria. In about AD 193, Ammonius Saccas founded the New Platonist School of Alexandria. The members of the new school, men such as Plotinus, Iamblicus and Origen, were basically orientals educated in Greek; and their writings are characterized by a mixture of Eastern and European elements. The principal teacher of the Christian catechetical schools which later rose and flourished in Alexandria were deeply influenced by Electic and New Platonist philosophy. This in turn had a great influence on the way in which Christianity was received and taught in Egypt."-'Coptic Egypt' by Barbra Watterso' p.13-14

The Following are similar examples of pagan Greek and apostate Christian syncretism:-
1) "The form of the Good, of which Plato had briefly spoken in The Republic as being among the eternal Ideas the primus inter pares, was fused with the Aristotelian Prime Mover, the Primary Cause of all things and became in their hands the ultimate principle, the Supreme Mind, at the top of the hierarchy of being. This in turn generated a tension which led to the notion of a Second Mind, or Logos. created from the first, which mediated between this high point of being and the materiel world (an idea that was highly influential upon the Forth Gospel). ... The massively influential Platonic concepts were transmitted through the interpreters of Plato such as Plotinus and Proclus, through charismatic teachers such as Ammonius Saccas, and were eagerly taken up by the Church Fathers who sought philosophical categories with which to elucidate the Christian revelation. Thus the idea of hierarchy appealed to the early Greek Fathers, and the Apologists with their incipient notions of the Trinity, and lead, more, often than not, to a Subordinationism (whereby the Son is seen as being inferior to the Father, who was himself never a problem to the Greeks)."-'God Within' by Oliver Davies pp.17-18

2) "It is impossible for any one, whether he be a student to history or not, to fail to notice a difference of both form and content between the Sermon on the Mount and the Nicene Creed. The Sermon on the Mount in the is the promulgation of a new law of conduct, it assumes beliefs rather than formulates them; the theological conceptions which underline it belong to the ethical rather than the speculative side of theology; metaphysics are wholly absent. The Nicene Creed is a statement partly facts and partly of dogmatic inference; the metaphysical terms which it contains would probably have been unintelligible to the first disciples; ethics have no place in it. The one belongs to a world of Syrian peasants, the other to a world of Greek philosophers."-'The Influence of Greek Ideas and Usage upon the Christian Church' by Edwin Hatch, D.D.; page B

3) "At the beginning of the third century missionaries had already carried the faith to the non-Jewish peoples of Asia minor and North Africa. Particularly in North Africa, Christianity has its first mass successes in towns and it long remained a predominantly urban phenomena. But it was still a matter of minorities. Throughout the empire, the old gods and local deities had the allegiance of the peasants. It has been suggested that by the end of the century Christians may have had the allegiance of about a tenth of the population of the empire. More striking were some signs of official favour and even concession. One emperor was a nominally a Christian and another included Jesus Christ among the gods honoured privately in his household. Such contacts with the court illustrate an interplay of Jewish and classical culture which is an important part of the story of the process by which Christianity took root in the empire. Perhaps St Paul, the Jew who could talk to Athenians in terms they understood, had launched this. Later, early in the second century, Justin Martyr, a Palestinian Greek, had striven to show that Christianity had a debt to Greek Philosophy. This had a political point; cultural identification with classical tradition helped to rebut the charge of disloyalty to the empire. If a Christian could stand in the ideological heritage of Hellenistic world he could also be a good citizen, and Justin's rational Christianity (for which, however, he was martyred in about 165) envisaged a revelation of Divine Reason in which all great philosophers and prophets had partaken, Plato among them, but which was only complete in Christ. Others were to follow similar lines, notably the leaned Clement of Alexandria, who strove consciously to integrate pagan scholarship with Christianity, and another Alexandrian, Origen, whose exact teaching is still debated because of the disappearance of many of his writings. The North African Christian, Tertullian, had contemptuously asked what the Academy had to do with the Church; he was answered by the Fathers who deliberately employed the Conceptual armoury of Greek philosophy to provide a statement of Faith which anchored Christianity to rationality as St Paul had not done."-The Hutchinson History of the World by J.M. Roberts pages 319, 321.

4) "John 1:1 Word The Greek term is logos. This word is found about 330 times in the New Testament and is translated 25 different ways in the King James Version, including 218 times as "word" (small w) and 50 times as "saying." Just what does it mean?
In the city of Ephesus, 6 centuries before John wrote his Gospel there, Heraclitus used the term logos for the rational principle, power, or being which speaks to men both from without and from within. Plato used it for the divine force creating the world. With Aristotle it was "insight." In general, the Greeks thought of logos as "reason" of "thought," whereas the Jewish emphasis was on logos as "word."
Philo, a Jew who lived in Alexandria in the time of Christ, sought to Combine these 2 ideas-thought and speech. He used the term logos over 1,300 times. It has been said that with Philo the Logos is often personified but never truly personalised.
The apostle John, under divine inspiration, goes beyond all this. He presents Jesus Christ as the eternal Logos, the true concept of God and also the Word (v.1) expressing that concept fully in His Incarnation* (v.14).
Aside from three times in the first verse here and once in verse 14, "Logos" is used for Christ in only two other places in the NT (I John 1:1; Rev 19:13). This fact tends to tie together these three books as written by John."-Word Meanings in the New Testament by Ralph Earle page 81
*See Bold type for this pagan Greek 'Idea'.

5) *"Within the confines of Torah law, each community developed its own synthesis between Jewish practice and local cultural environment, so that in first-century Alexandria, for example, the great Jewish mystic and theologian Philo - who in all probability did not speak Hebrew, and was in all respects an outstanding exemplar of the Hellenistic ideal - interpreted the God of Judaism and Mosaic law in Greek philosophical categories."
**"Philo, who flourished in Alexandria in the first half of the first century CE and wrote in Greek. His writings are mainly philosophical and allegorical interpretations of the Pentateuch; through them he seeks to demonstrate the rationality and nobility of Judaism, by showing it to be in accord with the best in Greek, especially Platonic, philosophy. Although he was therefore an apologist for Judaism, his attempted synthesis of Judaism and Hellenism did not appeal to subsequent tradition, which largely ignored his writings, whereas they exerted a strong influence on Christianity."-The Jewish People their history andreligion by David J. Goldbreg & John D. Rayner pp.80*, 208** also see pages. 244, 269.

6) "His (Justin) doctrine of the Logos was based on a doctrine of Sophia developed within Hellenistic Judaism but not taken directly from Philo's of Alexandria. ... In the Dialogue, arguing with Jews, Justin insisted that there is a "second God" and that this is Christ. The supreme God is Lord of the Lord on earth, since he is Father and God and the cause for the existence of the Mighty One, Lord, and God"* Verbally, we are in the realm of Numenius,** who spoke of a First God, a Second, and a Third, and sometimes assimilating the Third to the Second.*** Even in Justin's thought the Second and the Third are sometimes identified, as when he speaks of the conception of Jesus by a "spirit and power from God, none other then the Logos, which is the firstborn of God."*** Justin may be indebted to Numenius for some important phrasing used in his theology, though not for the doctrines themselves.-Greek Apologists of the Second Century by Robert M. Grant p.61
*See Justin's Dialogue 129.1. **Numenias of Apamea ***Numenius frag. 21 = Proclus Commentary on the (Plato's) Timaeus I.303 Diehl; frag. 11 = Eusebius Preparation for the Gospel 11.18.3. ****Justin's Apology 1.33.6.

In the book 'Principles of Biblical Interpretation' by Louis Berkhof Chapter 3. "History of Hermeneutical Principles in the Christian Church" page 19 he makes the following comment on the influence of the pagan philosopher Plato, and his philosophy on the interpretation of the Holy Bible etc.:
"A. The patristic Period
In the patristic period the development oh Hermeneutical principles in connected three different centres of Church life.
1. THE SCHOOL OF ALEXANDRIA. At the beginning of the third century A.D., biblical interpretation was influenced especially by the catechetical school of Alexandria. This city was an important seat of learning where Jewish religion and Greek philosophy met and influenced each other. The Platonic philosophy was still current there in the forms on Neo-Platonism and Gnosticism. And it is no wonder that the famous catechetical school of this city came under the spell of popular philosophy and accommodated itself to it in its interpretation of the Bible. It found the natural method for harmonizing religion and philosophy at hand in the allegorical interpretation, for
(a) Pagan philosophers (Stoics) had already for a long time applied that method in the interpretation of Homer, and thereby pointing out the way; and
(b) Philo who was an Alexandrian, lent to this method the weight of his authority, reduced it to a system, and applied it even to the simplest narratives."
[The other schools where, 2. The School of Antioch and 3. The Western Type of Exegesis.]

8) "Logos-theology, then, has at least a foothold in Platonism in the Middle Platonic period, but it is not, perhaps, the dominant pattern. The alternative in the contrast between a First God and a Second God, the Latter descended from a more literal interpretation of the Demiurge of Timaeus, and more directly concerned with creation, while the First God remains aloof, wrapped in his own thoughts, rather in the manner of Aristotle's Unmoved Mover."-The Philosophy in Christianity Ed. by G. Vesey p.5

9) "The Christian writers developed a theology of the Logos in order to justify their belief in divine creation and incarnation. Logos, translated 'Word' in John 1, also meant 'reason, purpose, wisdom'. The term was used in Stoicism, Middle Platonism and the writers of Philo to mean a cosmic principle of order and harmony, or the pattern or power by which God impinged upon the world.
Justin Martyr and others developed these two meanings and taught that the Logos was eternally with God, as his mind or wisdom. But in creation, revelation and finally incarnation the Logos went forth, acting upon and within the world. God the Father was therefore not directly in contact with the physical world, nor subject to change; for the Logos never ceased to be his eternal wisdom. Some Christian writers were too strongly influenced by philosophical ideas of divine unchangeability, quite different from the consistent steadfastness of the living God of the Bible.
The Logos who issued from God was certainly seen as divine. But the Logos easily appeared to be some impersonal power of God. It was often argued that the Logos was generated as Son (so that God became Father of the Son) only prior to creation (Tertullian), or even the incarnation (Hippolytus).
Some of the difficulties arose from language. If God was Father, this seemed to imply that he once existed without his Son. Origen established that such language referred to an eternal relationship between the Father and the Son. His doctrine that the Son was eternally being generated was an important step forward.
The theologians of Alexandria did not assert divine creation and incarnation as unambiguously as, say, Irenaeus. Origen lived in an age of persecution and was a Christian Platonist; therefore he instinctively looked through and beyond the visible, historical world to the transcendent and spiritual. For him, the material world was only a passing phase, where spirits who had fallen in an earlier existence were purified as punishment." -A Lion Handbook 'The History of Christianity p.111

10) "Origen - God the Father, God the Son--the distinction between the two was not to be denied. But how was monotheistic faith to be preserved? . . . Origen found the framework for his attempted solution to the problem in the philosophical outlook of the second century Platonism. . . . At the top was the one, the supreme existent, the truly transcendent. It may be called good, . . . Yet emanating from it . . . the divine mind; . . . thirdly there is the world-soul, emanating from the divine mind and mediating between it and the world of sensible experience. A scheme of this kind is most clearly exemplified by the writings of Plotinus, the Neoplatonist philosopher, who was a younger contemporary of Origen. Plotinus indeed speaks of that which is divine as existing in three "hypostases", three entities. To Origen this ground plan must have appeared heaven-sent. The most naturally congenial of the non-Christian philosophical tradition had been led to the conclusion that the divine must exist in three "hypostases". Christian tradition spoke quite independently of three divine beings, the three "hypostases" of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Where philosophy provided the form, revelation could supply the content."-Christian Fathers by Maurice Wiles pp.33-35 [see 10a for an example of the above thinking]

11) "Another [snake in the grass], in [Isaac] Newton's eyes more dangerous, influence derived from a tendency within Platonism to interpret the Logos in immanentist* rather than personalist terms. It effect is already to be found at work in Clement of Alexandria and was to wreak havoc later on. And Gnostic speculation about that Logos immanent* in the Father (logoV endaiqetoV) being later generated as a Son were equally perverse. Such opinions did not derive 'from the Apostles by tradition': they were 'brought into the Church from the theology of the heathens or Cabbalists in which learned men happened to be educated and instructed before they became Christians'. The fall to which these evil influences enticed the church is, rather surprisingly, not identified by [Isaac] Newton with the Council of Nicaea or the condemnation of Arius. Athanasius on whom the main burden of guilt is laid."-'Archetypal Heresy' Arianism through the centuries by Maurice Willes professor of Divinity Emeritus, University of Oxford pages 86-87
*"immanent indwelling, inherent."-The Oxford Dictionary English Etymology

The following is a statement form one of the Catholic Churches most eminent theologians St Augustine, who further propounded the trinity dogma, on his expectancy of the pagan Greek philosophical "logos" was "to the very same purpose" as "the Logos" of John 1:1-2

12) "[IX] 13. And thou, willing first to shew me, how Thou resistest the proud, but givest grace unto the humble, and by an act of Thy mercy Thou hadst traced out to men the way of humility, in that Thy WORD was made flesh, and dwelt among men:-Thou procuredst for me, by means of one puffed up with most unnatural pride, certain books of the Platonists, translated from Greek into Latin. And therein* I read, not in the very words, but to the same purpose, enforced by many and divers reasons, that In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God : the Same was in the beginning with God : all things were made by Him, and without Him was nothing made : that which was made by Him is life, and the life was thelight of men, and the light shineth in the darkness, and the darkness comprehend it not. And that the Soul of man, though it bears witness to the light, yet itself is not that light ; but the Word of God, being God is that true that lighteth every man that cometh into the world. And the He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not. But the He came unto His Own, and His own received Him not ; but many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, as many as believed in Him name ; this I read** not there.

14. Again I read there**, that God the Word was born not of flesh nor by blood, nor of the will of man, nor of the will of the flesh, but of God. But that the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, I read not there. For I traced in those books**, that it was many and divers ways said that the Son was in the form of the Father, and thought in not robbery to be equal with God, for that naturally He was the Same Substance . . .."
*Footnote reads; All the following contrasts turn on this, that the Plantonists had a notion of a Divine Eternal Word or Logos, (believing Him however to be in no sense distinct from God the Father,) but of His humiliation in becoming man, none. . . . For that before all times and above all times Thy Only-Begotten Son remaineth unchangeably, co-eternal with Thee, and that of his fulness souls receive, that they may be blessed; and that by participation of wisdom abiding in them they are renewed, so as to be wise, is there**."-'The Confessions of St Augustine Translated E.B. Pusey, D.D. publishers Heron Books London. Book VII. 13-14 pages 129-131
**In the books of the Platonists

It is no wonder that the so called church fathers seem to support the trinity according to the above.
Barryrob

Moderated By: Faramir

Barryrob. Campus Decorum prohibits argument by web link:

Debates (points for your position) made via weblink is not allowed. Weblinks may be used when a substantive summary of the point being made is posted on the board with a link given for further information regarding your position.

While technically your recent post have not been argument by web link, they have the same effect. That is, a poster using someone elses arguments. In other words, this is clearly a violation of the spirit of the decorum. In the future, please, at the very least, add some substantive comments of your own.

Thanks,

Faramir

***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publically complain or whine, please take it to the Psychotherapy Room unless told otherwise.

[Sparko]

Barryrob, remember, don't spam by making your entire posts regurgitations of other people's writing. I did not even bother to read that huge post of amalgamated stuff.

suffice it to say, the reason the early church beleived in the trinity was because the bible clearly shows the trinity to be true and they were taught the fact that Jesus was God from the apostles and right on down the line. You can dodge it or ignore it, but if you deny the trinity and you are honest with yourself, you will have to come to only two other conclusions: 1. The new testament contradicts the old testament and therefore is false, or 2. You must become a polytheist and believe in multiple gods.

It's either that, or Trinitarianism. Or you can just blindly ignore the verses that show Jesus is God and not reconcile them with the OT.

[barryrob]

Barryrob, remember, don't spam by making your entire posts regurgitations of other people's writing. I did not even bother to read that huge post of amalgamated stuff.

suffice it to say, the reason the early church beleived in the trinity was because the bible clearly shows the trinity to be true and they were taught the fact that Jesus was God from the apostles and right on down the line. You can dodge it or ignore it, but if you deny the trinity and you are honest with yourself, you will have to come to only two other conclusions: 1. The new testament contradicts the old testament and therefore is false, or 2. You must become a polytheist and believe in multiple gods.

It's either that, or Trinitarianism. Or you can just blindly ignore the verses that show Jesus is God and not reconcile them with the OT.

I totaly disagree with you because there is to much theologial data about to show that it is not theologial but philosophial as my post show. The above is presented to show that the Watchtower is well supported whe it says:-

Awake! 1976 August 22nd pp.24-5

How Christendom Borrows from Plato

"From "Demiurge" to Pagan "Logos"

According to Plato, all the things that people can see and feel are the result of eternal "ideas" or "forms" impressed upon matter. As a beautiful sculpture represents the idea of the sculptor impressed upon stone, so Plato believed that the entire physical universe owes its existence to the influence upon matter of a "world of ideas." The supreme "idea" was said to be "the Good," which Plato sometimes identified with God.

Of special interest is Plato’s belief concerning creation of the world. S. E. Frost, Jr., Ph.D, writes in The Basic Teachings of the Great Philosophers:

"In one of Plato’s famous Dialogues, the Timaeus, he tells us how the world of our senses was created. There was an ‘architect,’ the ‘Demiurge,’ who brought the ideal world and matter together just as a sculptor might bring his idea and marble together to produce a statue. This ‘Demiurge’ had perfect ideas of everything, and he had a great mass of matter. Plato never tells us where either the ‘Demiurge,’ ideas, or matter came from originally. They were just there when things began. As the ‘Demiurge’ brought an idea in touch with some matter, a thing was created."

This theory was brought into contact with the Bible by a Jewish philosopher known as Philo, who was born between 15 and 10 B.C.E. But what Plato called the "Demiurge" Philo referred to as "the Logos." Dr. Frost explains:

"Philo taught that there were many powers, or spirits, which radiated from God as light might radiate from a lamp. One of these powers, which he called the ‘Logos,’ was the creator of the world. This Logos, he taught, worked with matter and out of it created everything in the universe. In this way, God, through the Logos, created the universe. Further, everything in the universe is a copy of an idea in the mind of God. This reminds us of Plato’s belief that the world which we experience through our senses is a copy of ideas in the ideal world. And, indeed, Philo was attempting here to reconcile Plato’s philosophy with the Jewish religion."

"The Word," or Logos, according to John, however, is different from that of Philo. John describes "the Word" as a person who "became flesh." (John 1:14) This is not true of Plato’s "Demiurge" or Philo’s "Logos."

Nevertheless, early in the Common Era certain individuals transferred to "the Word" of the Gospel of John characteristics of the "Demiurge" and "Logos" mentioned in the non-Biblical writings of Plato and Philo. Since that pagan "Demiurge" or "Logos" evidently had always existed alongside the supreme God, it became "orthodox" to teach that Jesus was coeternal with God. Does the Bible support that conclusion?"

So what is the point of me going into a long explanitation on comments that well speak for themselves to which I can add little except to say it is perfectly clear and accurate as to what they say, they would have probaly said the same about Paul as Paul said on philosophial concepts like the Trinity:-



Colossians 2:8

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry YOU off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ."



who, that is Jesus, never said he was Almighty God which is clear in scripture, e.g. when applied to Jehovah, "Most High" emphasizes his supreme position above all others. (Ps 83:18) The title first appears at Genesis 14:18-20 with ´El (God), where Melchizedek is called "priest of the Most High God" and, in that capacity, blesses Abraham as well as the Most High God. "Most High" is used in combination with the divine name Jehovah (Gen 14:22; Ps 7:17) and with the plural of excellence ´Elo·him' (God) (Ps 78:56), and it also appears alone.—De 32:8; Ps 9:2; Isa 14:14.



Genesis 14:17-22 Then the king of Sod'om went out to meet him after he returned from defeating Ched·or·la·o'mer and the kings that were with him, to the Low Plain of Sha'veh, that is, the king’s Low Plain. 18 And Mel·chiz'e·dek king of Sa'lem brought out bread and wine, and he was priest of the Most High God. 19 Then he blessed him and said:

"Blessed be A'bram of the Most High God,Producer of heaven and earth; 20 And blessed be the Most High God,Who has delivered your oppressors into your hand!" At that A'bram gave him a tenth of everything.

21 After that the king of Sod'om said to A'bram: "Give me the souls, but take the goods for yourself." 22 At this A'bram said to the king of Sod'om: "I do lift up my hand [in an oath] to Jehovah the Most High God, Producer of heaven and earth,

Ftn. 14:18 "Of the Most High God." Heb., le´El' `El·yohn'. The Heb. word here is, not ´Elo·him', but ´El without the definite article, even though ´El is followed by the adjective `El·yohn', "Most High."



Numbers 24:16 The utterance of the one hearing the sayings of God,And the one knowing the knowledge of the Most High—A vision of the Almighty he got to seeWhile falling down with the eyes uncovered:



Deuteronomy 32:8 When the Most High gave the nations an inheritance,When he parted the sons of Adam from one another,He proceeded to fix the boundary of the peoplesWith regard for the number of the sons of Israel.



2 Samuel 22:14 From heaven Jehovah began to thunder,And the Most High himself began to give forth his voice.



Psalm 7:17 I shall laud Jehovah according to his righteousness, And I will make melody to the name of Jehovah the Most High.

9:1-2 I will laud [you], O Jehovah, with all my heart;I will declare all your wonderful works. 2 I will rejoice and exult in you,I will make melody to your name, O Most High.

18:13 And in the heavens Jehovah began to thunder,And the Most High himself began to give his voice, Hail and burning coals of fire.

21:7 For the king is trusting in Jehovah,Even in the loving-kindness of the Most High. He will not be caused to totter.

46:4 There is a river the streams of which make the city of God rejoice,The holiest grand tabernacle of the Most High.

47:2 For Jehovah, the Most High, is fear-inspiring,A great King over all the earth.

50:14 Offer thanksgiving as your sacrifice to God,And pay to the Most High your vows;

57:2 I call to God the Most High, to the [true] God who is bringing [them] to an end on my account.

73:11 And they have said: "How has od come to know?And does there exist knowledge in the Most High?"

77:10 And shall I keep saying: "This is what pierces me through,The changing of the right hand of the Most High"?

78:17 And they kept sinning still more against himBy rebelling against the Most High in the waterless region;

78:35 And they began to remember that God was their Rock, And that God the Most High was their Avenger.

78:56 And they began to test and rebel against God the Most High, And his reminders they did not keep.

82:6 "I myself have said, ‘YOU are gods,And all of YOU are sons of the Most High.

83:18 That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah,You alone are the Most High over all the earth.

87:5 And respecting Zion it will be said:"Each and every one was born in her."And the Most High himself will firmly establish her.

89:27 Also, I myself shall place him [Jesus] as firstborn,The most high of the kings of the earth. Note NOT in Heaven!

91:1 Anyone dwelling in the secret place of the Most High Will procure himself lodging under the very shadow of the Almighty One.

91:9 Because you [said]: "Jehovah is my refuge,"You have made the Most High himself your dwelling;

92:1 It is good to give thanks to Jehovah And to make melody to your name, O Most High;

97:9 For you, O Jehovah, are the Most High over all the earth;You are very high in your ascent over all [other] gods.

107:11 For they had behaved rebelliously against the sayings of God;And the counsel of the Most High they had disrespected.



Isaiah 14:12-14 "O how you have fallen from heaven, you shining one, son of the dawn! How you have been cut down to the earth, you who were disabling the nations! 13 As for you, you have said in your heart, ‘To the heavens I shall go up. Above the stars of God I shall lift up my throne, and I shall sit down upon the mountain of meeting, in the remotest parts of the north. 14 I shall go up above the high places of the clouds; I shall make myself resemble the Most High.’



Lamentations 3:35 For turning aside the judgment of an able-bodied man before the face of the Most High,

3:37-38 Who, now, has said that something should occur [when] Jehovah himself has not commanded? 38 From the mouth of the Most High bad things and what is good do not go forth.



Daniel 3:26 Then it was that Neb·u·chad·nez'zar approached the door of the burning fiery furnace. He was answering and saying: "Sha'drach, Me'shach and A·bed'ne·go, YOU servants of the Most High God, step out and come here!" At that time Sha'drach, Me'shach and A·bed'ne·go were stepping out from the midst of the fire

4:2 The signs and wonders that the Most High God has performed with me, it has seemed good to me to declare.

4:17 By the decree of watchers the thing is, and [by] the saying of holy ones the request is, to the intent that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that to the one whom he wants to, he gives it and he sets up over it even the lowliest one of mankind."

4:24-25 this is the interpretation, O king, and the decree of the Most High is that which must befall my lord the king. 25 And you they will be driving away from men, and with the beasts of the field your dwelling will come to be, and the vegetation is what they will give even to you to eat just like bulls; and with the dew of the heavens you yourself will be getting wet, and seven times themselves will pass over you, until you know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind, and that to the one whom he wants to he gives it.

4:32 and from mankind they are driving even you away, and with the beasts of the field your dwelling will be. Vegetation they will give even to you to eat just like bulls, and seven times themselves will pass over you, until you know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind, and that to the one whom he wants to he gives it.’"

4:34 "And at the end of the days I, Neb·u·chad·nez'zar, lifted up to the heavens my eyes, and my own understanding began to return to me; and I blessed the Most High himself, and the One living to time indefinite I praised and glorified, because his rulership is a rulership to time indefinite and his kingdom is for generation after generation.

5:18 As for you, O king, the Most High God himself gave to Neb·u·chad·nez'zar your father the kingdom and the greatness and the dignity and the majesty.

5:21 And from the sons of mankind he was driven away, and his very heart was made like that of a beast, and with the wild asses his dwelling was. Vegetation they would give him to eat just like bulls, and with the dew of the heavens his own body got to be wet, until he knew that the Most High God is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind, and that the one whom he wants to, he sets up over it.

Ftn. 7:18 Or, "the holy ones of the Most High." Aram., qad·di·sheh' `El·yoh·nin' (pl. of `El·yohn'), forming with the Aram. word for "holy ones" a second pl. word, or else copying the plurality of "holy ones" because of being so close in the sentence. Evidently this is not meant to indicate that the "holy ones" are most high. "Most High" is sing. in LXXSyVg and many Heb. mss.

7:25 And he will speak even words against the Most High, and he will harass continually the holy ones themselves of the Supreme One. And he will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, and times and half a time.



Mark 5:7 and, when he had cried out with a loud voice, he said: "What have I to do with you, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I put you under oath by God not to torment me."



Luke 1:32-35 This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High; and Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father, 33 and he will rule as king over the house of Jacob forever, and there will be no end of his kingdom." 34 But Mary said to the angel: "How is this to be, since I am having no intercourse with a man?" 35 In answer the angel said to her: "Holy spirit will come upon you, and power of the Most High will overshadow you. For that reason also what is born will be called holy, God’s Son.

1:76 But as for you, young child, you will be called a prophet of the Most High, for you will go in advance before Jehovah to make his ways ready,

6:35-36 To the contrary, continue to love YOUR enemies and to do good and to lend [without interest], not hoping for anything back; and YOUR reward will be great, and YOU will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind toward the unthankful and wicked. 36 Continue becoming merciful, just as YOUR Father is merciful.

8:28 At the sight of Jesus he cried aloud and fell down before him, and with a loud voice he said: "What have I to do with you, Jesus Son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me."



Acts 7:48 Nevertheless, the Most High does not dwell in houses made with hands; just as the prophet says,

16:17 This [girl] kept following Paul and us and crying out with the words: "These men are slaves of the Most High God, who are publishing to YOU the way of salvation."



Hebrews 7:1 For this Mel·chiz'e·dek, king of Sa'lem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him





No the Trinity fails again in the light of the Scripture which has the last word, if you read them? If Jesus is God incarnated them we now have Two “Most Highs.”

Barryrob

[Sparko]

Barryrob,

If we go by your argument then we have two Gods. But we never claimed Jesus was ANOTHER God, only YOU JW's say that. We say Jesus is the same God as the Father. YHWH is his name.

And again, please don't just argue via watchtower articles, and cut and paste.

[barryrob]

Barryrob,

If we go by your argument then we have two Gods. But we never claimed Jesus was ANOTHER God, only YOU JW's say that. We say Jesus is the same God as the Father. YHWH is his name.

And again, please don't just argue via watchtower articles, and cut and paste.

1st As you say WT is wrong you need to know that the WT stance here is well supported (re the above quotes which nearly all are of my own finding) 2nd which is suppoerted but comments in the WT as I showed you.

3rd The Jews did not except a triadic God they only worshiped ONE God –Jehovah-. Jehovah had recored what he thought of the surounding Nations theology and philosopises:-


Ezekiel 20:4-10 “Will you judge them? Will you judge [them], O son of man? Cause them to know the detestable things of their forefathers. 5 And you must say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “In the day of my choosing Israel, I also proceeded to lift up my hand [in an oath] to the seed of the house of Jacob and to make myself known to them in the land of Egypt. Yes, I proceeded to lift up my hand [in an oath] to them, saying, ‘I am Jehovah YOUR God.’ 6 In that day I lifted up my hand [in an oath] to them to bring them forth from the land of Egypt to a land that I had spied out for them, one flowing with milk and honey. It was the decoration of all the lands. 7 And I went on to say to them, ‘Throw away, each one of YOU, the disgusting things of his eyes, and with the dungy idols of Egypt do not defile yourselves. I am Jehovah YOUR God.’ 8 “‘“And they began to rebel against me, and they did not consent to listen to me. The disgusting things of their eyes they did not individually throw away, and the dungy idols of Egypt they did not leave, so that I promised to pour out my rage upon them, in order to bring my anger to its finish upon them in the midst of the land of Egypt. 9 And I went acting for the sake of my own name that [it] might not be profaned before the eyes of the nations in among whom they were, because I had made myself known to them before their eyes on bringing them forth from the land of Egypt. 10 So I brought them forth from the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness.

Acts 7:39 [Israel] in their hearts they turned back to Egypt, The Church has done the same!


The above well tells go Jehovah’s thoughts not the Egyptian theology & philosophy with is Trinitires/Triads of God and Godesses*, this is what the church now preach vie their dogmas e.g. Father/Osires Son/Horus Spirit/Isis.

How you say, lets see.

Most scholer admit the Egypt was the home of thinking in the ancient world and when it came to be under Alexander it became the centure of Greek thinking and schooling down into and beyong the 1st century:-

"The Alexandrian school, by contrast [to the Antiochene school], stressed the divine nature of Jesus from birth as the incarnation of the Logos or Aeon. It was much influenced by the legacy of paganism, both that of Egypt itself and of the Neoplatonic schools, such as the Therapeuts, that drew heavily on Greek tradition. The Alexandrians were concerned to develop a Christology that fitted with traditional philosophy and to this end tended to interpret the Bible in a more allegorical manner. For them the man Jesus was of much less import than the fact that he was the incarnation of the second person of the trinity."-'Magi' by Adrian G. Gilbert pp. 171-172

What would this mean for the intellectual and religious world in the days of Greek superiority as the world was under their power and then on into the Roman period, as the Romans were greatly influenced by the Egyptian and Greek thinkers?

"Under the Ptolemies, Alexandria, the capital city of Egypt, became the intellectual capital of the ancient world and a great and a great commercial centre. Many of the most influential scholars of the age contributes to its intellectual achievements, . . . In about AD 193, Ammonius Saccas founded the New Platonists, School of Alexandria. The members of the new school, men such as Plotinus, Iamblicus and Origen, were basically orientals educated in Greek; and their writings are characterised by a mixture of Eastern and European elements. The principal teachers of the Christian catechetical schools which later rose and flourished in Alexandria were deeply influenced by Eclectic and New Platonist philosophy. This in turn had a great influence on the way in which Christianity was received and taught in Egypt."-'Coptic Egypt' by B. Watterson pp.13-14

NOTE:”Origen” of which it is said:-
"Greek influance was most evident in Alexandria in the work of Clement and Origen. Of these it has been said that both were profoundly influenced in their attempts to understand and expound on the triune Godhead, by the revived, or "middle" Platonism fashionable at this time at Alexandria'. It was ready to accept intermediary divinities below the rank of the Supreme God."-Triads and Trinity' by J.Gwyn Griffiths page 211

Alexander was the bed for Christian (so-called) thinkers to lie in, so to speak, what did they learn and teach their as the basis for their dotrines? As in my above quotes it seem to be an add mix of some kind of theosophy and odd mix of theology and Philosophy mix, what show this?

As Alexander had a large Jewish commutiy Biblical theology was the focus of much attention in the centure of learning as the following shows:-

The 1st-century AD Jewish-Hellenistic philosopher Philo Judaeus employed the term Logos in his effort to synthesize Jewish tradition and Platonism. According to Philo, the Logos is a mediating principle between God and the world and can be understood as God's Word or the Divine Wisdom, which is immanent in the world."-Microsoft® Encarta® 96 Encyclopedia.

But this also show (as my others quotes show) syncratinc religious theology seems to be the order of the day in and about the 1st cent. And on. What did this produce in the minds of ‘converted’ pagans philosophers when they started to get to grips with the Bible. Well as with most what is God like etc. How did they answer, well Philo above to understand that (and other queations) he used the tools he had (AS IN THE ABOVE QUOTE) GREEK PHILOSOPHY! Did his thinking have any effects or leave any legacy? Yes:-

A very brief history of the Logos idea as the pagan Greeks used it and how it arrived into Christianity theology, taken from 'The New World Library' Vol. 11 by Caxton Publishing Co. Ltd. p.207:-

"LOGOS, a philosophical conception that goes back to Heraclitus* (q.v.), who meant by the term the principle of order and intelligibility in the world, a kind of universal Reason or Proscriptive destiny. For the Stoics, who developed the notion, Logos is the immanent Reason which governs the system of nature, in all its complexity and inter-relations, and explains the adaptation of all its parts one another and to the whole. This cosmic Reason is identified with Fate, Providence and Nature itself.

In Alexandrian philosophy, e.g. in Philo (q.v.), Logos* is interpreted so as to fit into a religious setting, and means the embodiment of the nature of God, a kind of emanation of intermediary between God and man, whereby something of God's being is reviled.
*Of Heraclitus

In Christian philosophy Logos assumes great significance, being specially identified with Christ as the second person of the Trinity."

So now how did this Pagan Greek Logos become Jesus? Well throught the socalled Church fathers as they where drawn from the ideas of Plato and Philo as it was part of their background then. Examples:-

The pagan Greeks LOGOS god.
Anything that was everlasting was a God (See Qu.1 What was God to the ancient pagan Greek Philosophers?) to the Greeks so here we see the foundation for the "Logos" of John 1:1-2 when the Greek philosophy in applied to this text the "Logos" becomes God as thus explained by Earnest William Barnes Sc.D. Camb., Hon. D.D. Aber. and Edin., Hon. LL.D. Glas, F.R.S. Bishop of Birmingham in his book 'The Rise of Christianity page 33:-

"For them* the total universe was God; and the Logos was life-giving spirit, the activity inherent in the world, to be likened to an inward fire giving light and understanding. They recognized the Logos in thought and reason, as a source of order and therefore as law and destiny. It follows that, for various stoic philosophers, the Logos was alike personal and impersonal, fate and providence, the soul of the world, the creative activity of God, and God Himself."
*Pre-Christian, pagan Greek philosophers e.g. Heracleitus and Zeno (c. 336-264 B.C.).

In the above summation of the Greek philosophical "Logos" it is very clear to see the parallels to the Biblical "Logos" (Jesus) of Jehovah and to note the differences (see later). Therefore as the second and third century Apologists applied Greek thinking to Scriptural texts, it is easy to see how the Trinity was produced, as the Biblical "Logos" (Jesus) instead of being God's Agent (Acts 3:15; 5:31; Hebrews 2:10) became God himself. So in effect the early 'church fathers' where introducing Egyptian and Greek (and other) paganism into Christianity as the Greeks had assimilated the theology and wisdom of the Egyptian and their gods into their own religion as the next quotation shows:-

“It was commonplace to say the ancient Hellenic religion was a matter of cult, not creed. What really mattered was the due performance of sacrifices and other sacred rites according to what was believed to be immemorial tradition: this was as true of the worship of newly introduced deities from Egypt or the East as of those rites which centred round the old Greek gods and heroes: the newly arrived deities were either worshipped according to the traditions of their homeland or in the traditional Greek Mannor."-'The Legacy of Greece' Ed, by M.I. Finley page 347

As the add mix of religious thinking was the order of the day then, well for most, the amalgum was the start of the pagan Logos becoming the 'Chritsian' Almighty God:-

"CHAPTER 5
PHILOSOPHY THE HANDMAID OF THEOLOGY
Accordingly, before the advent of the Lord, philosophy was necessary to the Greeks for righteousness. And now it becomes conducive to piety; being a kind of preparatory training to those who attain to faith through demonstration. "For thy foot," it is said, "will not stumble, if thou refer what is good, whether belonging to the Greeks or to us, to Providence."
For God is the cause of all good things; but of some primarily, as of the Old and the New Testament; and of others by consequence, as philosophy. Perchance, too, philosophy was given to the Greeks directly and primarily, till the Lord should call the Greeks. For this was a schoolmaster to bring "the Hellenic mind," as the law, the Hebrews, "to Christ." Philosophy, therefore, was a preparation, paving the way for him who is perfected in Christ."-FATHERS OF THE SECOND CENTURY, AMERICAN EDITION Chronologically Arranged, With Notes, Prefaces, And Elucidations, BY A. CLEVELAND COXE, D.D.

The warning is clear to see, that theology and philosophy where mixed. What is the base that philosophy is built on, from where did the Greek inherit their ideas?

"We usually refer to the work of Greece's theologians with their own name for it, "philosophy." We have thereupon been lead to think this must be a different kind of intellectual activity than theology, to which theology perhaps may appeal for oundational purpose or against which theology must perhaps defend itself. But this is a historical illusion; Greek philosophy was the theology of the historically particular Olympian-Parmenidean religion, later with the wider Mediterranean cultic world."-'Systematic Theology' Vol.1 The Triune God byRobert W. Jenson p.9-10

and

"Greek philosophy, which began as an attempt to understand the world without recourse to religious myth ended up as a rational theology which attempted to define in detail the relationship between God the soul, and the world. . . . . Greek philosophy was in no way indebted to Greek polytheism. it was rather the case that the religious consciousness of Greece was enhanced by her philosophers. This process is particularly clear in Plato and Aristotle. Plato wanted to refine religion, not reject it, and so he combined stringent criticism of the traditional stories about the gods with a reasoned presentation of the divine nature as totally honest and benevolent in word and deed. Aristotle's extraordinary achievement in theology was to deduce an elevated and monotheistic view of the deity from the nature of the physical world."-'An introduction to Greek Philosophy' by J.V. Luce pp.12 and 13

So Philosophy is in fact Theology whereing another name for itself but the same stuff, paganism, but from where? For the answer to that question we will turn to the theology of ancinet Egypt which Jehovah God so detested, in the following expressions:-

"the distinctive idea of tri-unity we must turn to Egypt, where the New-Kingdom* theology began to treat the triad as a trinity. In the early Christian centuries this development was endorsed by Greek influance: the Platonic triadic system sometimes close to the dimension of trinitarianism, and popular Greek syncretism was often regarded three deities as one"-'Triads and Trinity' by John Gwyn GriffithsBA, DD (Wales), MA (Liverpool), D.Phil., D.Litt. (Oxon,) is Professor Emeritus of Classics and Egyptology at the University of Wales, Swansea page 306-307 *About the time of Moses etc.

But what of the Egyptian gods I mentioned?

Sir E. A. Wallis Budge further goes on to say the following about the Egyptian god Thoth (Greek-Hermes, Roman-Mercury) and how it parallels Plato's Logos (via Heralclitus) which was later absorbed into the Churches doctrines as Plato received his ideas via the Egyptians:-

"We are now able to sum up the attributes ascribed to Thoth, and to consider how he employed them in connection with the dead. In first place, he was held to be both the heart and the tongue of Ra, that is to say, he was the reason and the mental powers of the god, and also the means by which their will was translated into speech ; from one aspect he was speech itself, and in later times he may well have represented, as Dr. Birch said, the logos of Plato. In every legend in which Thoth takes a prominent part we see that it is he who speaks the word that results in the wishes of Ra being carried into effect, and it is evident that when he had once given the word of commend that command could not fail to be carried out by one means or the other."-'The gods of the Egyptians' by E.A. Wallis Budge Vol. 1 p.407

So now we need to ask how on earth did Plato get this Egyptian Theology which the Greeks called philosophy? The following is taken form Plutarch's 'Moralia Vol. V on how pagan Egyptian theology was viewed in his day and equated to philosophy:-

"9. The kings were appointed from the priests or the military class, since the military class had eminence and honour because of valour, and the priests because of wisdom (Gk. sofian). But he who was appointed from the military class was at once made one of the priests and a participant in their philosophy (Gk.filosofiaV), which for the most part, in veiled in myths and in words containing dim reflexions and adumbration of truth, as they themselves intimate beyond question by appropriately placing sphinxes before their shrines to indicate that religious teaching has in it an enigmatical sort of wisdom (Gk. sofian). ...
10. Witness to this also are the wisest of the Greeks: Solon, Thales. Plato, Eudoxus, Pythagoras, who came to Egypt and consorted with Priests; and in this number some would include Lycurgus also. Eudoxus, they say, received instruction from Chonphis of Memphis, Solon from Sonchis of Sais, and Pythagroas from Oenuphis of Heliopolis. Pythagroas, as it seem, was greatly admired, and he also greatly admired the Egyptians priests, and, copying their symbolism and occult teaching, incorporated his doctrines in enigmas."-Plutarch's 'Moralia Vol. V pp.23, 25, 27. Loeb Classical Library

In the eyes of the ancient Egyptian mystical theologians, their priests, ideas were put into forms, the way they explained and depicted their gods, and here we will see the concept of the trinity, a Father, Son, and Spirit, (Osiris, Hours, Isis and others) which was to the Ancient Egyptians a 'Most Holy Trinity' (or Triad). This theological concept found it's way into Christendom's teaching because of the adoption of these concepts by the Greek and Roman philosophers via the Alexandrine school of philosophy (and the Chaldean Oracles) which was influenced by the surviving pagan Egyptian priesthood, which were in turn adopted by the apostate early Church Fathers of the third and fourth centuries as they very faultily tried to explain the Bible teachings of the 'Logos' (and others, e.g. Catholic indulgences, Isis and Hours as the Virgin Mary and Jesus) in the background of pagan theological philosophy, which in turn was followed by the Catholic Church scholars, thus into the majority of the main stream theological teachings of Christendom's Churches down to this 20th century.

Barryrob

PS sorry about the quotes but I cannot afford the fare to go to Egypt and see all of this personaly!
Hope not to many spelling errors?

[barryrob]

A. Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian.
"If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority...There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).

B. Immanuel means "God is with us." Jesus means "the LORD saves." Who does it say will do the saving in verse 21? Jesus.

Continued at: http://www.saveme.org/articles/trinity.htm
(edited to go to web link to avoid back-to-back posts.)

First of a few thought on your quotes, what more quotes! now we have somthing to work on.


A. In the quote from Origen we see the classic case of confusing the Greek philosphhial Logos with the person of the Logos namely Jesus. To the Greeks the Logos was the mind/wisdom of god(s), the facility of reason used by all so part of all so when applied to God it -The Logos- becomes him (the same substance) but this is not what John said in hie prolog, he said the the person of The Logos was incarnated as in human form on the earth (Jihn 1:14) as Jesus not a somekind of emination (part of the person of God) from God, his words/mind/wisdom (which is what it ment ot the Pagan Greek philosophers) becoming fleash as intimated to by Origin.


B. 1. Immanuel means "God is with us." So God walked on earth, well he did or did not, it cannot be both? Not according to the Bible as God cannot be seen:-

John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time*; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.
*I think "any time" is pretty comprehensive

Exodus 33:20 And he added: “You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live.”

John 6:46 Not that any man has seen the Father, except he who is from God; this one has seen the Father.

1 John 4:12 At no time has anyone beheld God. If we continue loving one another, God remains in us and his love is made perfect in us.


So now we say are but Jesus is not the same person as the father well this is true so how can he be God, are but he is made of the same stuff so are the angels and the bible calls the angels gods true but in a lesser way as we all know, well we should do by now, Origen does not seem to work!


As it is said of Jesus that He IS God incarnated as a man, men must have seen God, but the Bible says that is not the case!

In fact Justin Maytyr makes this clear:-

Justin Martyr's writings based on Prov Ch 8. agreeing, for the most part, with our position of Jesus being created and lesser god, (whole chapter quoted). Taken from: THE ANTE-NICENE FATHERS The Writings of the Fathers down to A.D. 325 THE REV. ALEXANDER ROBERTS, D.D., AND JAMES DONALDSON, LL.D., EDITORS AMERICAN REPRINT OF THE EDINBURGH EDITION VOLUME 1 THE APOSTOLIC FATHERS JUSTIN MARTYR, IRENAEUS p.437-8:-

DIALOGUE OF JUSTIN PHILOSOPHER AND MARTYR WITH TRYPHO, A JEW

CHAPTER 61 - WISDOM IS BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER, AS FIRE FROM FIRE

""I shall give you another testimony, my friends," said I, "from the Scriptures, that God begat before all creatures a Beginning, [who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion He calls Himself Captain, when He appeared in human form to Joshua the son of Nave (Nun). For He can be called by all those names, since He ministers to the Father’s will, and since He was begotten of the Father by an act of will;

..."

All of which would seem to agree with Jesus being "begotten" (created) and The Father being "unbegotten" (uncreated).

2. Jesus means "the LORD saves."
Correction Jesus is a Greek rendering of the Hebrew word "Yeshua" meaning "Salvation of Jehovah" which showed well as Jesus was God's provison as God's Lamb, but if he -Jesus- was God then we have 'God The Lamb' somthing else that does not seem to work! If we use the Hebrew way of Worship as a lesser pattern for worship, which the Book of Hebrews shows that it is, we would have the Jews worshiping Sheep and the High Preist as he also set the pattern that Jesus would follow but in the fuller way?!

I will get to some MORE of your Quotes aaaaahhhhhhhh latter?

All the best
Barryrob

[Sparko]

First of a few thought on your quotes, what more quotes! now we have somthing to work on.

Just so you dont go crazy, The quotes I used are short, concise and relevant to my article.

A. In the quote from Origen we see the classic case of confusing the Greek philosphhial Logos with the person of the Logos namely Jesus. To the Greeks the Logos was the mind/wisdom of god(s), the facility of reason used by all so part of all so when applied to God it -The Logos- becomes him (the same substance) but this is not what John said in hie prolog, he said the the person of The Logos was incarnated as in human form on the earth (Jihn 1:14) as Jesus not a somekind of emination (part of the person of God) from God, his words/mind/wisdom (which is what it ment ot the Pagan Greek philosophers) becoming fleash as intimated to by Origin.

Can you explain this? I am not understanding what you mean. Origen is affirming that the Son was with the Father always. That there was never a time that he "became" or was created. He always existed. If the Word always existed, then he is uncreated and therefore GOD. not A God, but THE God. What John speaks about is similar, He said the in the beginning the Word was with God, and the word WAS God. Then goes on to say that all things are made through him, and that he became flesh (Jesus). Origen is speaking of the same thing. That the Word is uncreated, and IS God.

B. 1. Immanuel means "God is with us." So God walked on earth, well he did or did not, it cannot be both? Not according to the Bible as God cannot be seen:-

John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time*; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.
*I think "any time" is pretty comprehensive

Exodus 33:20 And he added: “You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live.”

John 6:46 Not that any man has seen the Father, except he who is from God; this one has seen the Father.

1 John 4:12 At no time has anyone beheld God. If we continue loving one another, God remains in us and his love is made perfect in us.

er, Barryrob,

It is speaking of God the Father, as shown in John 6:46. Since the Son is also God, yet man, he can be seen.

This is a good place to bring up Isaiah 40. in the NWT, no less:

3 Listen! Someone is calling out in the wilderness: “Clear up the way of Jehovah, YOU people! MAKE the highway for our God through the desert plain straight.... 5 And the glory of Jehovah will certainly be revealed, and all flesh must see [it] together, for the very mouth of Jehovah has spoken [it].”

9 ...Say to the cities of Judah: “Here is YOUR God.” 10 Look! The Sovereign Lord Jehovah himself will come even as a strong one, and his arm will be ruling for him. Look! His reward is with him, and the wage he pays is before him. 11 Like a shepherd he will shepherd his own drove. With his arm he will collect together the lambs; and in his bosom he will carry [them]. Those giving suck he will conduct [with care].

So,

Not only does Isaiah say that Jehovah himself will be coming, but they will be able to see him. And who came? Who did John the baptist announce with these same words? Was it... Jesus?

Yes it was. And Isaiah says it will be Jehovah. Hmmmm. could that mean that Jesus IS Jehovah? Why, I believe so.

2. Jesus means "the LORD saves."
Correction Jesus is a Greek rendering of the Hebrew word "Yeshua" meaning "Salvation of Jehovah" which showed well as Jesus was God's provison as God's Lamb, but if he -Jesus- was God then we have 'God The Lamb' somthing else that does not seem to work! If we use the Hebrew way of Worship as a lesser pattern for worship, which the Book of Hebrews shows that it is, we would have the Jews worshiping Sheep and the High Preist as he also set the pattern that Jesus would follow but in the fuller way?!

Again, this argument fails as a strawman, showing you do not understand the doctrine of the Trinity at all and does nothing to defeat it. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, yet they are three persons of one substance.

First, don't forget Jesus' other name "God is with us" - Emmanuel. Taken together you get "Salvation is of Jehovah" and "Jehovah is with us" - and Isaiah saying that Jehovah himself is coming to save and will be seen. Therefore we get that Jesus is Jehovah, that as the second person of God, he can be seen since he has a body, and can be the lamb of God the Father, and still be God the son. No problem there.