Quiverfull Movement

[Paprika]

I am quite sure I am telling the truth about my own emotions. Or is this another claim that you disbelieve? lol

It is something I distrust, yes.

The circumstances of being in perpetual childbirth. You do believe she actually gave birth multiple times and almost died in the process, or not?

I don't believe she was "nearly killed every time".

Yes, she was attempting to be faithful to her interpretation of the biblical mandate for families. She then realized she was en route to insanity and thusly cut all ties from what she now sees as an ultra-fundamentalist cult.

She didn't cut ties from her children.

[Scrawly]

It is something I distrust, yes.

You distrust that I am telling the truth about how I feel?

I don't believe she was "nearly killed every time".

I don't believe I said she was "nearly killed every time".

She didn't cut ties from her children.

I guess she looked at them as innocent victims in the melee, and that she can raise them without the damaging indoctrination she was exposed to.

[Paprika]

You distrust that I am telling the truth about how I feel?

Yes.

I don't believe I said she was "nearly killed every time".

That's what she claimed. I do not believe this claim. Do you?

I guess she looked at them as innocent victims in the melee, and that she can raise them without the damaging indoctrination she was exposed to.

How do you know?

[Scrawly]

Yes.

Well, you should try and be more open to believing your brother and fellow Christian (who believes lying is immoral).

That's what she claimed. I do not believe this claim. Do you?

I believe having multiple births can bring one close to death for some (most?) people, yes.

How do you know?

I am making an educated guess based upon the circumstances. Moreover, I believe she founded an organization to prevent this type of dysfunction, and it therefore seems reasonable to assume she didn't want to turn her back on her own kids which are vulnerable to the harm she is combating.

[Paprika]

Well, you should try and be more open to believing your brother and fellow Christian (who believes lying is immoral).

Unfortunately the evidence I have results in an inference to the contrary.

I believe having multiple births can bring one close to death for some (most?) people, yes.

Stop evading. She said was "nearly killed every time". Do you believe this? Why or why not?

I am making an educated guess based upon the circumstances. Moreover, I believe she founded an organization to prevent this type of dysfunction, and it therefore seems reasonable to assume she didn't want to turn her back on her own kids which are vulnerable to the harm she is combating.

While abandoning her husband.

[Scrawly]

Unfortunately the evidence I have results in an inference to the contrary.

What's the evidence?

Stop evading. She said was "nearly killed every time". Do you believe this? Why or why not?

I believe it's possible, sure.

While abandoning her husband.

It might have been necessary.

[Paprika]

What's the evidence?

1) Your uncritical acceptance of the article
2) Your evasion or refusing to answer many of my points and counter-points, eg my examination of her contradictory statements and her inherent biases
3) That PM you sent me some time back.

I believe it's possible, sure.

Stop evading. Do you believe it happened?

It might have been necessary.

And it might not. Done playing with possibilities and 'mights'?

[Scrawly]

OK I really, really need to get some sleep, so this will be my last response for a bit. Also, I was at work when I responded, and it was quite busy, so I might have missed some things you said. However:

1) Your uncritical acceptance of the article

I don't think I uncritically accept anything.

2) Your evasion or refusing to answer many of my points and counter-points, eg my examination of her contradictory statements and her inherent biases

Well I look at the article as a testimony of someone who subscribed faithfully to the 'Quiverfull Movement', and their interpretations of the biblical mandate for the family. She eventually realized she was in a cult and made her way out. This is the substance of what I was highlighting and I don't remember you making any case against that substance. Feel free to point it out, but try and grasp the big picture of what had transpired in this woman's life.

3) That PM you sent me some time back.

I'm not sure if a PM from some time back could be shored up to prove I was emotionally charged whilst reading the article.

Stop evading. Do you believe it happened?

I'm not evading. I believe that she came close to death during the multitude of pregnancies she underwent. That is all.

And it might not. Done playing with possibilities and 'mights'?

Yes, which is why I kept emphasizing the big picture: A woman in the Quiverfull movement comes close to a nervous breakdown in the midst of trying to fulfill a biblical mandate at the expense of her health because it was a sacrifice she was making for Christ. This woman subsequently wakes up and recognizes she is participating in an extreme fundamentalist movement and therefore rages against the Bible and the Christ that almost destroyed her life. She then sets up an organization and becomes an activist against this perceived insanity in hopes of preventing future calamities for other families. You seemingly distrust that narrative, on what grounds may I ask? Would you mind disclosing if you have some affiliation with the Quiverfull movement?

[Paprika]

I don't think I uncritically accept anything.

I think you do.

Well I look at the article as a testimony of someone who subscribed faithfully to the 'Quiverfull Movement', and their interpretations of the biblical mandate for the family. She eventually realized she was in a cult and made her way out. This is the substance of what I was highlighting and I don't remember you making any case against that substance. Feel free to point it out, but try and grasp the big picture of what had transpired in this woman's life.

This isn't what we've been disputing.

I'm not sure if a PM from some time back could be shored up to prove I was emotionally charged whilst reading the article.

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

I'm not evading. I believe that she came close to death during the multitude of pregnancies she underwent. That is all.

Came close to death "nearly ... every time"?

Yes, which is why I kept emphasizing the big picture: A woman in the Quiverfull movement comes close to a nervous breakdown in the midst of trying to fulfill a biblical mandate at the expense of her health because it was a sacrifice she was making for Christ. This woman subsequently wakes up and recognizes she is participating in an extreme fundamentalist movement and therefore rages against the Bible and the Christ that almost destroyed her life. She then sets up an organization and becomes an activist against this perceived insanity in hopes of preventing future calamities for other families. You seemingly distrust that narrative, on what grounds may I ask?

It's rather fascinating: here we've been disagreeing whether there were appropriate grounds for divorce, and whether there is anything 'disturbing', and now you're trying to bring up this "big picture" which I have not disputed, as something I am disputing. One might think you're just trying to shift the goalposts.

[Scrawly]

Oh and you speak of her bias, yet acknowledge:

"As a general statement, I hardly see how these claims fall under intentional abuse by the husband, given that she herself claims that the husband did it all in good faith, and that "I *willinging* went along with all the harsh demands of the Quiverfull lifestyle, and in many instances, I was the one who pushed patriarchy and headship ON HIM."

Her statements there don't seem too biased in her favour, do they?

You go on to state:

"according to her the husband did what he did in good faith, and she in good faith went along and even pushed him to do some things he wasn't comfortable with doing. It may be that the system the family was operating under was harmful for them, due to both parents buying into terrible theology, but again, that is no valid reason for divorce."

It seems that she divorced/ran away on the grounds of having apostatized from the faith and concluded that people in that movement, including her husband, were nuts. She also claimed that he said the devil was speaking through her, so yeah, I don't really blame her for bailing instead of having a deep discussion with him to try and fix things.

[Scrawly]

Came close to death "nearly ... every time"?

Perhaps. I don't know the state of her health during those times. I feel comfortable giving her the benefit of the doubt because I don't see why she would be lying about this, do you?

It's rather fascinating: here we've been disagreeing whether there were appropriate grounds for divorce, and whether there is anything 'disturbing', and now you're trying to bring up this "big picture" which I have not disputed, as something I am disputing. One might think you're just trying to shift the goalposts.

I certainly know if I was in her situation and dropped out of the cult, I would file for divorce. Trying to reason with cultists is often very difficult and making a clean break is sometimes best. Yet do you think it's possible she did in fact try and reach out to him?

[Paprika]

Oh and you speak of her bias, yet acknowledge:

"As a general statement, I hardly see how these claims fall under intentional abuse by the husband, given that she herself claims that the husband did it all in good faith, and that "I *willinging* went along with all the harsh demands of the Quiverfull lifestyle, and in many instances, I was the one who pushed patriarchy and headship ON HIM."

Her statements there don't seem too biased in her favour, do they?

I certainly don't expect people to be consistent. Note also that my speaking of bias was also made in the context of her telling her story to American Atheists.

You go on to state:

"according to her the husband did what he did in good faith, and she in good faith went along and even pushed him to do some things he wasn't comfortable with doing. It may be that the system the family was operating under was harmful for them, due to both parents buying into terrible theology, but again, that is no valid reason for divorce."

It seems that she divorced/ran away on the grounds of having apostatized from the faith and concluded that people in that movement, including her husband, were nuts. She also claimed that the devil was speaking through her, so yeah, I don't really blame her for bailing instead of having a deep discussion with him to try and fix things.

Do explain how this is a valid reason for divorce.

[Scrawly]

I certainly don't expect people to be consistent. Note also that my speaking of bias was also made in the context of her telling her story to American Atheists.

Yes, she is now an activist and counter-cult speaker bringing awareness and hoping to rescue those in the throes of cults she was once entangled in. Was she making stuff up or exaggerating for the crowd? I don't see why. This experience was clearly very traumatic for her and only she knows how deep the wounds are from it. I imagine she wouldn't be going on little crusades such as that, if she was making stuff up.

Do explain how this is a valid reason for divorce.

From her perspective I see it as the only sane thing to do. She left the "faith". Her husband essentially called her the devil. What was she supposed to do? Wait around and hope that he likewise leaves the cult? Do we know for certain that she didn't try and reach out to him?

I'm also curious as to why you didn't answer my query as to whether or not you have connections with the Quiverfull movement?

[Paprika]

From her perspective I see it as the only sane thing to do. She left the "faith". Her husband essentially called her the devil.

What was she supposed to do? Wait around and hope that he likewise leaves the cult? Do we know for certain that she didn't try and reach out to him?

You certainly seem to be assuming she did, and that that would make the divorce valid. I am not claiming that the divorce had no valid reason; I am claiming that she has presented no valid reason for divorce.

I'm also curious as to why you didn't answer my query as to whether or not you have connections with the Quiverfull movement?

Because I try not to bother with distractions.

[Scrawly]

You certainly seem to be assuming she did, and that that would make the divorce valid. I am not claiming that the divorce had no valid reason; I am claiming that she has presented no valid reason for divorce.


Because I try not to bother with distractions.

Have a nice day bro. I'm off to dream land - I hope! *mumble* stupid insomnia *mumble*