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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Thought Experiment: God Glass
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Get off my lawn, you whippersnappers!"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
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Aww, you say the sweetest things."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by NormATive View PostChristianity does not concern itself with doing what G-d wants.
Although they exist as a lunatic fringe, by and large at least we don't embrace the idea of Christian atheists. To start.
But yes we do have the Lord's Prayer, Beatitudes, the Golden Rule. All kinds of things God wants.
Originally posted by NormATive View PostThe Tanakh already contains 613 commandments that were designed to pretty much accomplish that...
When the descendants of the followers of Jesus decided to follow the teachings of Paul and the Hellenized Christians rather than follow Judaism (the faith of Jesus), they decided to abandon "G-d Glasses" in favor of individual determinism.
1 Corinthians 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
Originally posted by NormATive View PostEach Christian is promised all the benefits of serving G-d without having to actually serve G-d (please note that I am not suggesting that Christians DON'T serve G-d - its just that they don't have to). So, why on earth would any Christian willingly want to serve G-d in the way described in the Tanakh in great detail?
They are already guaranteed a "free pass."
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
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We are neither robots nor puppets. We are conscious entities. At least I am one.The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu
[T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations
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This is a recording...
Sorry..."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Truthseeker View PostWe are neither robots nor puppets. We are conscious entities. At least I am one.
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Originally posted by JohnnyP View PostMore and more Judaism doesn't even concern itself with a God at all, given the growing numbers of Jewish atheists and acceptance of them by many religious Jews.
Although they exist as a lunatic fringe, by and large at least we don't embrace the idea of Christian atheists. To start.
But yes we do have the Lord's Prayer, Beatitudes, the Golden Rule. All kinds of things God wants.
It is truly a shame that Christians don't embrace Agnostics and Atheists. Non-theistic worldviews can bring a deeper dimension to your spiritual journey.
Yes, you do have the Beatitudes, which I find quite inspiring. Much of the Law is summed up in the Beatitudes. Pity this part of Christianity is barely emphasized.
Originally posted by JohnnyP View PostYou know as well as I do Judaism discourages Gentiles from converting to become Jews being compelled to observe all Torah, instead encouraging them to remain Gentiles under Noahide, nothing much different from what Paul did. While at the same time, he encouraged Jews to keep observing Torah.
I think you may have that last bit wrong. Paul was lobbying James the Just, Peter and the Jerusalem Christians to move away from strict adherence to the Law.
Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post1 Corinthians 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
Quote Originally Posted by NormATive View Post
Each Christian is promised all the benefits of serving G-d without having to actually serve G-d (please note that I am not suggesting that Christians DON'T serve G-d - its just that they don't have to). So, why on earth would any Christian willingly want to serve G-d in the way described in the Tanakh in great detail?
They are already guaranteed a "free pass."
Originally posted by JohnnyP View PostWhere are they guaranteed that?
Of course, one can certainly argue the opposite:
Originally posted by JohnnyP View PostMatthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
NORMWhen the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu
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Originally posted by NormATive View PostYou are correct, modern Judaism is less concerned with the ritual G-d and more focused on the internal mindset of G-d, which comes from the mind of man in the first place. Theism optional.
Not to say I don't have some wonderful atheist friends who are better people than I am in some ways, making the world a better place. In the end maybe being rewarded far more than me. But in the meantime I wouldn't say they are intending to serve God, even though they may be doing His will in many ways.
Does that seem fair? I'm trying to be objective and agree somewhat, not like "Christians are good and atheists are evil."
Originally posted by NormATive View PostIt is truly a shame that Christians don't embrace Agnostics and Atheists. Non-theistic worldviews can bring a deeper dimension to your spiritual journey.
Once a group starts accepting into its own ranks those who entertain non- or polytheistic positions, that group as a whole acknowledges those positions to be possible realities and as a whole, throws those mitzvot out the window.
Of course they can be taken out of a biblical context as given by an eternal Creator and repackaged to fit -- God as the laws of nature for example -- and then observed that way. Non-theists do much the same in adapting to 12-Step Programs calling for a Higher Power. But then it's something different, not exactly obeying the God of the Tanach.
Originally posted by NormATive View PostYes, you do have the Beatitudes, which I find quite inspiring. Much of the Law is summed up in the Beatitudes. Pity this part of Christianity is barely emphasized.
Originally posted by NormATive View PostWhile this is true of Conservative Judaism and the Hasidim, it is not true of Reformed Judaism. I was a convert from Christianity, and they were very helpful. I expected harsh criticism of Christianity, but quite the opposite was true. They were eager to hear my perspective coming from the Christian tradition. They took the time to help me through learning Hebrew and overcoming my western orientation to the world (this is the larger obstacle to adopting the Jewish way, because it is an eastern religion.
Originally posted by NormATive View PostI think you may have that last bit wrong. Paul was lobbying James the Just, Peter and the Jerusalem Christians to move away from strict adherence to the Law.
Circumcision is rather difficult to "undo." LOL!
But as stated, Paul's lobbying would be similar to that of a modern rabbi telling other Jews not to force Gentiles to fully convert, but rather allow them observe Noahide.
Originally posted by NormATive View PostHere: https://bible.org/seriespage/assurance-eternal-security
Of course, one can certainly argue the opposite:
Others including Gentiles or non-Israelites have free will to remain in faith or fall away: as Romans 11 says, we can be cut off if we don't abide. In other words, salvation isn't guaranteed for everyone just because we're baptized etc. I wouldn't ever presume I'm safe from damnation -- to me non-existence not eternal torture -- I'm not a prophet that knows how God will judge anyone. It may be you are saved and I'm not, in the end.
But you have a valid point in that some Christians don't really understand this.
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Originally posted by JohnnyP View PostThen it's about serving man -- others, self, or both -- not the biblical idea of an omnipotent omniscient God.
Originally posted by JohnnyP View PostNot to say I don't have some wonderful atheist friends who are better people than I am in some ways, making the world a better place. In the end maybe being rewarded far more than me. But in the meantime I wouldn't say they are intending to serve God, even though they may be doing His will in many ways.
Does that seem fair? I'm trying to be objective and agree somewhat, not like "Christians are good and atheists are evil."
Originally posted by JohnnyP View PostWe can study and even embrace positive aspects of them -- like from Buddhism, or following the examples of our atheist friends who have a lot of good things to offer as I mentioned -- while still maintaining theistic integrity of our beliefs. For example observing the mitzvot to know God exists and that there is no other.
Once a group starts accepting into its own ranks those who entertain non- or polytheistic positions, that group as a whole acknowledges those positions to be possible realities and as a whole, throws those mitzvot out the window.
Of course they can be taken out of a biblical context as given by an eternal Creator and repackaged to fit -- God as the laws of nature for example -- and then observed that way. Non-theists do much the same in adapting to 12-Step Programs calling for a Higher Power. But then it's something different, not exactly obeying the God of the Tanach.
אם אין אני לי, מי לי? וכשאני לעצמי, מה אני? ואם לא עכשיו, אימתי?
Im ein ani li, mi li? U'kh'she'ani le'atzmi, mah ani? V'im lo 'akhshav, eimatai?
If I am not for myself, then who will be for me? And when I am for myself, then what am "I"? And if not now, when? - Hillel
Originally posted by JohnnyP View PostSome of that mentions the elect -- some Christians think it refers to all believers. My interpretation is that it refers to some Israelites actually descending from Jacob who receive the covenant promises by blood. As such God will make them believe no matter what, they are guaranteed salvation to preserve God's promises to Israel as a firstfruits. Just as God hardened Pharaoh's heart, it's not a free-will choice.
Others including Gentiles or non-Israelites have free will to remain in faith or fall away: as Romans 11 says, we can be cut off if we don't abide. In other words, salvation isn't guaranteed for everyone just because we're baptized etc. I wouldn't ever presume I'm safe from damnation -- to me non-existence not eternal torture -- I'm not a prophet that knows how God will judge anyone. It may be you are saved and I'm not, in the end.
But you have a valid point in that some Christians don't really understand this.
But for the here and the now it matters greatly how we treat our fellow man.
NORMWhen the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu
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Originally posted by NormATive View PostI see what you are saying about the perception that allowing foreign ideas can erode the basis of the faith. However, some will see it as an evolutionary process. This is what happened in Judaism - particularly in the years immediately following the Shoah. The faithful were keeping Kosher, observing the festivals, obeying the Law. Yet, still G-d allowed the Nazis to nearly wipe them off the face of the earth. The lesson learned was that G-d is not one who intervenes in human events. There was no other way to interpret the utter silence of G-d during our worst suffering.
Most Jews who died during the Holocaust were Orthodox believing Jews, the epitome of the Suffering Servant alongside our Christ: even if they didn't believe in him they still believed in our God.
I would thus interpret your response as:
Isaiah 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
I think you are a good person in a secular sense. But I am not sure you appreciate the religious sacrifices of those who came before you, for a God they believe in. Not believed, but still believe in Heaven.
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Originally posted by JohnnyP View PostBut let me speak frankly:
Most Jews who died during the Holocaust were Orthodox believing Jews, the epitome of the Suffering Servant alongside our Christ: even if they didn't believe in him they still believed in our God.
Originally posted by JohnnyP View PostI would thus interpret your response as:
Isaiah 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
I think you are a good person in a secular sense. But I am not sure you appreciate the religious sacrifices of those who came before you, for a God they believe in. Not believed, but still believe in Heaven.
You are uninformed concerning the Jewish faith. Most Jewish "believers" do not have the Christian concept of a Heaven. For the Orthodox, there is a "World to Come" which is not at all like the Christian Heaven. The World to Come, most Jewish theologians believe, is right here on Earth when the Moshiach (a human, by the way) will usher in a kingdom of peace, where the lamb will lie down with the lion (figuratively speaking).
Reformed, of course, believe that the World to Come is speaking of our present time and place - an attainable goal. Thus, the emphasis on doing good works in the here and now. G-d works within each individual rather than as an outside agitator above space and time.
I think that you are a good person in the religious sense. But, I am not sure you appreciate the sacrifice of secular reformers and those who do good works because it is the right thing to do and not because some book or deity ordered them to do so.
NORMWhen the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu
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Originally posted by NormATive View PostMore than a million who died were children who had no idea about belief in G-d in the Orthodox way. There is no documentation to prove that "most" who died during the Shoah were Orthodox. Those living in the Warsaw slums at the time didn't have the luxury of Orthodoxy.
"An entirely accurate estimate of how many Orthodox Jews were killed is impossible, but they were clearly the majority, somewhere between 50-70 percent."
http://books.google.com/books?id=OL4XSZjhi8kC&pg=PA23
"The largest group of Holocaust victims—religiously Orthodox and Yiddish-speaking Jews of Poland, or, in the slightly contemptuous German term, Ostjuden —were culturally alien from West Europeans, including West European Jews."
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/arch...nored-reality/
Originally posted by NormATive View PostReligious sacrifice is mostly in vain, as the Shoah experience taught.
Originally posted by NormATive View PostThey were exterminated not because of any fealty to their G-d, but because they controlled a large segment of wealth in Germany that the Nazi's desired for themselves.
Originally posted by NormATive View PostYou are uninformed concerning the Jewish faith. Most Jewish "believers" do not have the Christian concept of a Heaven. For the Orthodox, there is a "World to Come" which is not at all like the Christian Heaven. The World to Come, most Jewish theologians believe, is right here on Earth when the Moshiach (a human, by the way) will usher in a kingdom of peace, where the lamb will lie down with the lion (figuratively speaking).
Originally posted by NormATive View PostReformed, of course, believe that the World to Come is speaking of our present time and place - an attainable goal. Thus, the emphasis on doing good works in the here and now. G-d works within each individual rather than as an outside agitator above space and time.
Galations 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Galations 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
But ultimately we still look to Messiah as one who will finish the job:
Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Isaiah 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Isaiah 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Originally posted by NormATive View PostI think that you are a good person in the religious sense. But, I am not sure you appreciate the sacrifice of secular reformers and those who do good works because it is the right thing to do and not because some book or deity ordered them to do so.
NORM
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