Baha'i Faith and prophecy

[shunyadragon]

This thread is in response to question in other threads concerning the claim of the founders of the Baha'i Faith to fulfill the prophecies of Judaism, Christianity and the other religions of the world. The following are some beginning points. The points are important, because the Baha'i view of prophecy as universal is reflected in the universal.

(1) God is a universal God for all humanity and not a Jewish, Christian or Moslem God. The nature of God is unknown and hidden. The attributes of God are revealed in the religions and evident in the nature of existence itself. There are no contradictions except in the egos of humans. A considerable amount of my argument rests on this premise. God is not theistic, deistic, pantheistic, monistic, God is . . .

(2) The scripture of the world's religions is inspired, but writen by humans from the worldview of the time.

(3) All the major religions of the world have prophecies for the coming and return of messiahs, but when they do arrive they are rejected and persecuted. Many of the prophecies from the different religions of the world are in harmony and the predictions are remarkably similar.

(4) Religion is progressive, evolved, cyclic and universal. In fact it mirrors physical creation in these attributes. Messiahs have revealed guidance and wisdom to all the people of the world through out history. Revelation comes through the existence itself. The cycles of Revelation are also cycles of creation.

(5) I believe the Bible prophecies the coming of more than one messiah. In fact Genesis 3:15. I believe there are other references to the coming of more than one messiah.

(6) Salvation is as much a collective goal as an individual experience. Salvation is the nature of the journey of all life in all existence. The primary focus of the individual should be the salvation of humanity and saving our home for the future, not the self.

(7) The world created will not be destroyed by the creator. There are no mistakes and wipping the slate clean with great floods or fiery planetary ethnic cleansing of those that are not saved.

The story begins in the late 1700s and the first half of the 1800s when the prophetic dreams of many around the world foretell the coming of a messiah and a great change in the world. The key years of change center around 1843-45 and 1862-64.

The first key date in prophecies foretell the importance off 1844 and 1863. Why did many people from around expect things to happen around these years? What happened around this time to fulfill the prophecies?

Any one may access any Baha'i site and check out the claims. I will post individual events and prophecies for anyone to flail away at.

One interesting point is the the Baha'i Faith including some miracles are better documented for the beginning of a religion making similar claims as Christianity. Some miracles are clearly better documented in Baha'i history, but the Baha'i Faith believes that miracles even witnessed first hand are not proof of anything.

[One Bad Pig]

This thread is in response to question in other threads concerning the claim of the founders of the Baha'i Faith to fulfill the prophecies of Judaism, Christianity and the other religions of the world. The following are some beginning points. The points are important, because the Baha'i view of prophecy as universal is reflected in the universal.

Shunya, thanks for posting this. Between you and a Baha'i I work with I might even learn something.

(1) God is a universal God for all humanity and not a Jewish, Christian or Moslem God. The nature of God is unknown and hidden. The attributes of God are revealed in the religions and evident in the nature of existence itself. There are no contradictions except in the egos of humans. A considerable amount of my argument rests on this premise. God is not theistic, deistic, pantheistic, monistic, God is . . .

Since a considerable amount of your argument rests on the above premise(s), I expect you to offer substantial proof. How is God not theistic, deistic, pantheistic, or monistic? I agree with you on some of these. I just want to know where you're coming from.

(2) The scripture of the world's religions is inspired, but writen by humans from the worldview of the time.

So does this mean it's partly right? How do you know which parts are right?

(3) All the major religions of the world have prophecies for the coming and return of messiahs, but when they do arrive they are rejected and persecuted. Many of the prophecies from the different religions of the world are in harmony and the predictions are remarkably similar.

(4) Religion is progressive, evolved, cyclic and universal. In fact it mirrors physical creation in these attributes. Messiahs have revealed guidance and wisdom to all the people of the world through out history. Revelation comes through the existence itself. The cycles of Revelation are also cycles of creation.

(5) I believe the Bible prophecies the coming of more than one messiah. In fact Genesis 3:15. I believe there are other references to the coming of more than one messiah.

Examples of the above, please.

(6) Salvation is as much a collective goal as an individual experience. Salvation is the nature of the journey of all life in all existence. The primary focus of the individual should be the salvation of humanity and saving our home for the future, not the self.

Could you elaborate on this? What is salvation? What are we saved from? Can the individual save himself? Can he save others? How?

(7) The world created will not be destroyed by the creator. There are no mistakes and wipping the slate clean with great floods or fiery planetary ethnic cleansing of those that are not saved.

So the Bible is wrong on these counts? The flood is attested to in both the OT and NT, and apocalypse is a subject written on throughout the Bible.

The story begins in the late 1700s and the first half of the 1800s when the prophetic dreams of many around the world foretell the coming of a messiah and a great change in the world. The key years of change center around 1843-45 and 1862-64.

The first key date in prophecies foretell the importance off 1844 and 1863. Why did many people from around expect things to happen around these years? What happened around this time to fulfill the prophecies?

Any one may access any Baha'i site and check out the claims. I will post individual events and prophecies for anyone to flail away at.

Could you provide some links?

One interesting point is the the Baha'i Faith including some miracles are better documented for the beginning of a religion making similar claims as Christianity. Some miracles are clearly better documented in Baha'i history, but the Baha'i Faith believes that miracles even witnessed first hand are not proof of anything.

Why do you mention them, then?

[shunyadragon]

Shunya, thanks for posting this. Between you and a Baha'i I work with I might even learn something.

Since a considerable amount of your argument rests on the above premise(s), I expect you to offer substantial proof. How is God not theistic, deistic, pantheistic, or monistic? I agree with you on some of these. I just want to know where you're coming from.

The point humans go to considerable lengths to describe what God is and what God is not. Each of these terms may or may not describe some of the attributes. For example, God may be considered theist, because in ways he may be personally involved. He may in some ways be deist, because he may not be always personally involved. Many events of existence may just happen as creation naturally unfolds.

So does this mean it's partly right? How do you know which parts are right?

Interesting question. I view scripture from two points of view. Premise (1) is an important one in that God is universal and omnipotant. The other point of view is the fallable human. If I view the scripture of any single religion of the world by itself, it collapses like a house of cards. None bears witness to innerent infaliable scripture. In every one I see human weaknesses and they all fail to meet the most basic of sceptical tests and all fail to present a universal world view. If I take the other extreme position that they are all false and the work of the fears and vain hopes of fallable human efforts I found this view voided the spirtual charactor I saw in humanity replaced it with cold logic. I believe somewhere there is a middle road.

In the east it may be called the 'middle mountain'. If you climb the middle mountain you may see both other mountains clearly. Look at the chinese character shan for mountain.

Examples of the above, please.

I will cover these questions in another post.

Could you elaborate on this? What is salvation? What are we saved from? Can the individual save himself? Can he save others? How?
So the Bible is wrong on these counts? The flood is attested to in both the OT and NT, and apocalypse is a subject written on throughout the Bible.

Long list of questions here and some have been addressed in other threads.
I answer some briefly.

What is salvation? - It is the journey of the human soul, humanity and existence created by a compassionate and caring God. It is the journey through many worlds.

Can the individual save himself? Can he save others? - NO.

What are we saved from? - From ourselves mostly.

The flood is attested to in both the OT and NT, - Yes, the flood is attested to, but what does it mean? I am a geologist and the flood is not attested to in the geologic record. I also do not consider God contradictory and I do not think Whoops! messed this up. I will have to wipe everything out and start over. As I said in my premises creation itself is witness to revelation.

. . . and apocalypse is a subject written on throughout the Bible. - The apocalypse for the most part is in the dreams and visions of the writers and is interpreted differently by different people. The prophetic visions of events of recent history could very well be what they saw. Actually the same goes here as with the world flood. A compassionate omnipotent God does not play games like a kid in a sandbox.

Could you provide some links?

Will do tomorrow. I am tired to night.

Why do you mention them, then?

In part, miracles are a part of every religion. Many claim their own miracles as some kind of proof. I am presenting a different view.

[kofh2u]

shunyadragon:
Baha'i view of prophecy as universal is reflected in the universal.

KOFHY:
When you say universal, do you infer Universal? Capital U?

The Buckminster Fuller movement accepts the concept that Universe is all that is not you, the personal you which each of us recognizes as "me."

shunyadragon:
(1) God is a universal God for all humanity and not a Jewish, Christian or Moslem God. The nature of God is unknown and hidden. The attributes of God are revealed in the religions and evident in the nature of existence itself. There are no contradictions except in the egos of humans. .

KOFHY: Hahahaaaaa,....
I must accuse you of implicit agreement with the Freudian Bible Intetpretation:

Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God, (The Universal Force), created the
heaven and the earth.

shunyadragon:
A considerable amount of my argument rests on this premise. God is not theistic, deistic, pantheistic, monistic, God is . .

KOFHY:
How considerable?
Our digression into Babism may be just a cultural digression in terminologies since YHVH is really the Hebrew oarticiplebof the verb "To be." YHVH is... and is becoming....

shunyadragon:
(2) The scripture of the world's religions is inspired, but writen by humans from the worldview of the time.

KOFHY:
Inspired?
What exactly does this so often used term mean? Intuitively derived, in shaman-like fashion?

shunyadragon:
(3) All the major religions of the world have prophecies for the coming and return of messiahs, but when they do arrive they are rejected and persecuted. Many of the prophecies from the different religions of the world are in harmony and the predictions are remarkably similar.

KOFHY:
They are in many ways similar.
And, as Freud and Jung recognized, man's internal and individual psychic mechanisms are expressed collectively in the species.
A Collective Intuition would seem at the core of your Bab observation.

Again, I accuse you of Freudian Bible Interpretation.

shunyadragon:
(4) Religion is progressive, evolved, cyclic, and universal. In fact it mirrors physical creation in these attributes.

KOFH:
Absolutely.
The Freudian Interpretation of scripture supports Theistic Evolution.

However, you use the word, "religion."

Freudian Interpretation would perfer to substitute "Social Intuition" for the construct of religion. Religion is part of the concept of Social Force in the form of organized religion. This means the initial intuitive expression become politizied and perverted over time.

shunyadragon:
Messiahs...

KOFHY:
Budha, Confusius, etc?
Or, do you point to the history of many, many crucified men prior to Jesus, all derived from pagan mystery cults?

shunyadragon:
messiahs...have revealed guidance and wisdom to all the people of the world through out history. Revelation comes through the existence itself. The cycles of Revelation are also cycles of creation.

KOFHY:
I believe that the Freudian Bible Interpretation reads this in terms of a more 20th, 21st century language.

Based upon the insigths of Jean Paiget, and his studies of Child Development, the Freudian Bible premises interpretations upon a set of seven underlying axioms.

One axiom is that man is growing up, one generation of development adding to the last, and refining the next. Each leading to a final product of his maturation.

shunyadragon:
(5) I believe the Bible prophecies the coming of more than one messiah. In fact Genesis 3:15. I believe there are other references to the coming of more than one messiah.

KOFHY:
Yes.
Each of these "messiahs," when defined properly by the connotative meaning of this Hebrew Word, is often referred to as a "son of God."
Freudian theistic evolution identifies an evolutionary morphing into a more advance hominoid, "man," wherever scripture specifically notes these "messiahs" by such a designation, son of God, or "walked with God."

Example:
Gen. 5:22 And Enoch, (Homo habilis), walked with God (consciously thinking, realistically), after he begat Methuselah, (Homo erectus), three hundred (thousand) years, and begat (Homo habilisian) sons and daughters:

shunyadragon:
(6) Salvation is as much a collective goal as an individual experience.

KOFHY:
By this I assume you mean in more current language: adaption to the Reality of Universe.
This defines the archaic terminology of "salvation" as the equivalent to "survival by fittness with the changing environment."

shunyadragon:
Salvation is the nature of the journey of all life in all existence.

KOFHY:
Theistic Evolutionism, again.

shunyadragon:
The primary focus of the individual should be the salvation of humanity and saving our home for the future, not the self.

KOFHY:
Right on!

shunyadragon:
(7) The world created will not be destroyed by the creator.

KOFHY:
Absolutely.
The world of the Creator is Universe, as you stated previously.
Whether man adapts and complies with this God of the living or no, whether or not man lives with, and in, "Reality," the Universe will do quite well.

Scripture confirms this process of extinction. In Genesis, a line of descent from Adam to Modern Homo sapiens is delineated. That list in Genesis is in the process of being confirmed evermore closely. It is analogous to our present state of the art in Paleontology:

Gen. 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam (Ramapithecus Man). In the day, (4-6 million years ago when humans diverged from apes), that God created man, (Hominoids), in the likeness, (mentally), of God, (the external Universe), made he (Reality) him (the abstract mind on Man);

shunyadragon:
There are no mistakes and wipping the slate clean with great floods...

KOFHY:
Yes,again we agree!
The metaphorical flood was the sudden population explosion 40,000 years ago.Modern Homo sapiens' replaced all other species of hominoids.

Gen. 6:6 And it, (the evolutionary process), repented the LORD that he had made man, (all hominoids in general), on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart (that cataclysmic changes were to come).

Gen. 6:7 And the LORD, (Almighty Universe) said, I will destroy man (of these types and species) whom I have created, destroy them from the face of the earth: (extinction!); both (this species and kind of) man, and (his idea of) the beast, and (his idea of) the creeping thing, and (his idea of) the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

shunyadragon:
...or fiery planetary ethnic cleansing of those that are not saved.

KOFHY:
The simile of fire and the plasma-like mind of man is very appropriate to the next evolutionary step.

There will be no devastating flood like the Noah metaphor. Modern Homo sapiens who replaced and pro-actively aided and abetted the extinction of Neanderthals will merely change, mentally, psychologically.
His Subconscious Mind has already become apparent to the once more limited awareness of the Conscious Mind.
But, man is soon to experience transfiguration in the awakening of his presently locked and totally Unconscious Mind.

"But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep (in the facility of their Unconscious Mind). For since by a man came death (in partial and premature consciousness), by a man also came the (first) resurrection of the dead (or sleeping world of phylogenetic memory). For as in Adam, (partial consciousness), all (previous phylogenetic memories) die, so also in Christ all will be made (awakened), alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits (of awakened Conscience), after that those who are (awakened to the same Conscience as) Christ's at His coming, (true Christians), then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom (of mind within) to the God and Father (imaged in the trinity of our Conscious Mind, Subconscious Mind, and Unconscious Mind), when He has abolished (the in the Free Will of the Conscious Mind) all rule and all authority and power." - 1Corinthians 15:20-24

shunyadragon:
The story begins in the late 1700s and the first half of the 1800s when the prophetic dreams of many around the world foretell the coming of a messiah and a great change in the world. The key years of change center around 1843-45 and 1862-64.

KOFHY:
The millerites were to become disappointed by their blind misunderstanding of a materilization. They expected, in 1844-5, a person, someone coming in their external world.
What did happen was a marker, the sign of the son of man in the heavens appeared, and the "birth" occurred in a new paradigm in our understanding, the "Age of Enlightenment."
This of course, was the partial awakening to the Total Consciousness not quite yet with us.

shunyadragon:
The first key date in prophecies foretell the importance off 1844 and 1863. Why did many people from around expect things to happen around these years? What happened around this time to fulfill the prophecies?

Any one may access any Baha'i site and check out the claims. I will post individual events and prophecies for anyone to flail away at.

KOFHY:
Good.

shunyadragon:
One interesting point is the Baha'i Faith including some miracles are better documented for the beginning of a religion making similar claims as Christianity. Some miracles are clearly better documented in Baha'i history, but the Baha'i Faith believes that miracles even witnessed first hand are not proof of anything.

KOFHY:
True. They are merely incentives which encourage people to see the signs of the times and to decide upon the redirection of their lives through higher awareness.

1Cor. 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump (the final moment of the second coming): for the trumpet (of awakened Unconscious Mind) shall sound (in our thoughts), and the dead (Collective Unconscious Minds) shall be raised incorruptible (unperverted in clarity and memory), and we shall be changed (into Homoiousian beings).

[One Bad Pig]

The point humans go to considerable lengths to describe what God is and what God is not. Each of these terms may or may not describe some of the attributes. For example, God may be considered theist, because in ways he may be personally involved. He may in some ways be deist, because he may not be always personally involved. Many events of existence may just happen as creation naturally unfolds.

Okay, I can agree that God is sometimes actively involved, but generally not.

So does this mean [the Bible is] partly right? How do you know which parts are right?

Interesting question. I view scripture from two points of view. Premise (1) is an important one in that God is universal and omnipotant. The other point of view is the fallable human. If I view the scripture of any single religion of the world by itself, it collapses like a house of cards. None bears witness to innerent infaliable scripture. In every one I see human weaknesses and they all fail to meet the most basic of sceptical tests and all fail to present a universal world view. If I take the other extreme position that they are all false and the work of the fears and vain hopes of fallable human efforts I found this view voided the spirtual charactor I saw in humanity replaced it with cold logic. I believe somewhere there is a middle road.

It seems like you think scripture is mostly worthless. How then can you assume it has correctly conveyed God's attributes? For example, the God of the Bible is much more involved in human affairs than the Allah of the Koran.

Long list of questions here and some have been addressed in other threads.
I answer some briefly.

What is salvation? - It is the journey of the human soul, humanity and existence created by a compassionate and caring God. It is the journey through many worlds.

Can the individual save himself? Can he save others? - NO.

What are we saved from? - From ourselves mostly.

From where do you get these ideas? In Christianity/Judaism/Islam, salvation is the attainment of heaven/the avoidance of hell. In Buddhism/Hinduism, salvation is escaping the wheel of life.

The flood is attested to in both the OT and NT, - Yes, the flood is attested to, but what does it mean? I am a geologist and the flood is not attested to in the geologic record. I also do not consider God contradictory and I do not think Whoops! messed this up. I will have to wipe everything out and start over. As I said in my premises creation itself is witness to revelation.

. . . and apocalypse is a subject written on throughout the Bible. - The apocalypse for the most part is in the dreams and visions of the writers and is interpreted differently by different people. The prophetic visions of events of recent history could very well be what they saw. Actually the same goes here as with the world flood. A compassionate omnipotent God does not play games like a kid in a sandbox.

Given the fact I'm YEC, I disagree with your assessment of the flood (but that's a topic for a different forum). God is not merely compassionate; He is also just. There is tension there, but I don't pretend to fully understand God.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say about apocalyptic writings. Do you think they were writing about what had happened to them, or were actually seeing what has only come to pass recently? Jesus Himself prophesied.

Will do tomorrow. I am tired to night.

Thanks.

In part, miracles are a part of every religion. Many claim their own miracles as some kind of proof. I am presenting a different view.

Okay. I just don't understand the logic of displaying miracles on one hand while rejecting their import on the other.

[shunyadragon]

shunyadragon:
Baha'i view of prophecy as universal is reflected in the universal.

KOFHY:
When you say universal, do you infer Universal? Capital U?

KOFHY, One Bad Pig and friends

I am going to start another thread on this topic called Baha'i and progressive revelation which will deal with these topics. I originally posted my premises for the purpses of understanding the Baha'i view of prophesy. I will respond to this post in that thread. My next post in this thread will be concerning specific prophecies and the Baha'i Faith.

[shunyadragon]

The first prophesy is Daniel 8:13-14 How long shall the vision concerning the daily sacrafice, and the abomination of desolation, to give sanctuary and the host to be troden under foot? He said unto me, "two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

The decree to rebuild Jerusalem was issued in 457 BC, using 2300 years comes out to the 1843-45 time period for fulfilment of the prophecy. The edict of toleration for the Jews to reenter Jerusalem was published on March 21, 1844. This edict fulfills an important condition required for the return of the messiah and the 'Times of the Gentiles' will be fulfilled and the Jews would return to Palestine Luke 21:24-27.

The dating of the coming of Christ uses the same consistent interpretation of the prophecies of Daniel for the return.

The promise of the Gospel being taught all over the world was fulfilled at this time when the heart of Africa was reached in 1844 by missionaries. Mark 13:10.

The prophecies point to this year occurs in other world religions also.

In Islam the return of the 12th Imam would take place concerning the Shite prophecy of his return 1000 years after he disappeared in the year 260.

In Buddhism the return of the Most Great Buddha whould be in the west after Buddhism was revealed in the west. In the spring of 1844 the first Buddhist writings were translated and released in both Europe and the USA.

There are other prophecies in the OT and other religions that are compatable with this year and the return was simultaneously expected in the west by more than than on Millenial faith in the Christianity. Other related prophecies will be given in the next post.

An important point is the Baha'i does not just fulfill one or two prophesies, but many and from religions and beliefs from all over the world.

[shunyadragon]

Okay, I can agree that God is sometimes actively involved, but generally not.


Okay. I just don't understand the logic of displaying miracles on one hand while rejecting their import on the other.

The answer to your post is [url http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39414] here [/url]

[One Bad Pig]

The first prophesy is Daniel 8:13-14 How long shall the vision concerning the daily sacrafice, and the abomination of desolation, to give sanctuary and the host to be troden under foot? He said unto me, "two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

The decree to rebuild Jerusalem was issued in 457 BC, using 2300 years comes out to the 1843-45 time period for fulfilment of the prophecy. The edict of toleration for the Jews to reenter Jerusalem was published on March 21, 1844. This edict fulfills an important condition required for the return of the messiah and the 'Times of the Gentiles' will be fulfilled and the Jews would return to Palestine Luke 21:24-27.

What did you do, find an event to match the prophecy so your date would work out? Why would the abomination of desolation start when Jerusalem was allowed to be rebuilt by the Jews? Then again, the "sanctuary" refers to the temple itself, not Jerusalem as a whole. There's this niggling detail that the Temple [b]still[/i] isn't restored, because the third holiest object in Islam happens to be occupying the spot the Temple stood. Even if you assume that "sanctuary" refers to Jerusalem, the Jews didn't assume control of the city until 1967 (and still don't control the Temple Mount).

The dating of the coming of Christ uses the same consistent interpretation of the prophecies of Daniel for the return.

Jesus Himself said he didn't know when He would return. This hasn't stopped people from trying to predict it, though. We are to stand ready for His immanent return. In addition, Jesus' return will be a triumphant one. He wasn't going to be coming back just to be killed again (like the Bab was).

The promise of the Gospel being taught all over the world was fulfilled at this time when the heart of Africa was reached in 1844 by missionaries. Mark 13:10.

JPH has argued that the word translated "world" there referred to the Roman Empire at the time. Whether you agree with that or not, many people don't think that this will be fulfilled until the gospel is in every language. This has not yet happened.

The prophecies point to this year occurs in other world religions also.

In Islam the return of the 12th Imam would take place concerning the Shite prophecy of his return 1000 years after he disappeared in the year 260.

I don't know that much about Islam, so I'll have to pass on this one. I'm assuming you're using an Arabic calendar.

In Buddhism the return of the Most Great Buddha whould be in the west after Buddhism was revealed in the west. In the spring of 1844 the first Buddhist writings were translated and released in both Europe and the USA.

Buddha is not God. Buddhists will tell you that.

There are other prophecies in the OT and other religions that are compatable with this year and the return was simultaneously expected in the west by more than than on Millenial faith in the Christianity. Other related prophecies will be given in the next post.

The only other group I'm familiar with who used that year was the Jehovah's Witnesses, and they rejected it for another (and another, and another...) when it became evident they were wrong.

An important point is the Baha'i does not just fulfill one or two prophesies, but many and from religions and beliefs from all over the world.

Well, you've failed to convince me so far (especially using the set of scriptures I subscribe to).

[shunyadragon]

What did you do, find an event to match the prophecy so your date would work out? Why would the abomination of desolation start when Jerusalem was allowed to be rebuilt by the Jews? Then again, the "sanctuary" refers to the temple itself, not Jerusalem as a whole. There's this niggling detail that the Temple [b]still[/i] isn't restored, because the third holiest object in Islam happens to be occupying the spot the Temple stood. Even if you assume that "sanctuary" refers to Jerusalem, the Jews didn't assume control of the city until 1967 (and still don't control the Temple Mount).

Abonination of desolation begins on that date. I believe the 'sanctuary' refers to Jerusalem and the State of Isreal. The process of fulfillment occurs over a period of time beginning in 1844. I think the timing of the prophecy clearly fits with the decree of rebuilding the temple in the same manner as Christ first fulfilled the prophecy in Daniel. The prophecies match well.

Jesus Himself said he didn't know when He would return. This hasn't stopped people from trying to predict it, though. We are to stand ready for His immanent return. In addition, Jesus' return will be a triumphant one. He wasn't going to be coming back just to be killed again (like the Bab was).

The Bab was not the return of Christ he was the Herald or forerunner to Baha'u'llah, the return of Christ, which I will go into concerning other prophecies.

As with Christ's coming and his return many are still waiting. As for the advent of the 'annointed one' some are still trying to predict it and are waiting. Christ's lack of knowledge of his return further supports the view Christ was not God, but as he claimed he spoke for God and had no power of his own.

JPH has argued that the word translated "world" there referred to the Roman Empire at the time. Whether you agree with that or not, many people don't think that this will be fulfilled until the gospel is in every language. This has not yet happened.

True, but these are interpretations, and likewise the Jews who are very knowledgeable concerning scripture reject Christ fulfilling the prophecies.

I don't know that much about Islam, so I'll have to pass on this one. I'm assuming you're using an Arabic calendar.

The purpose of this was to show the corraboration of prophecies between different religions.

Buddha is not God. Buddhists will tell you that.

We agree, but then disagree on Christ. I do not think Christ is God either.

The only other group I'm familiar with who used that year was the Jehovah's Witnesses, and they rejected it for another (and another, and another...) when it became evident they were wrong.

Others picked the dates of fulfillment including 1863.

Well, you've failed to convince me so far (especially using the set of scriptures I subscribe to).

The purpose here is not necessarily to convince anyone. In these informal debates I learn a lot. I am not well versed on prophecies and in this process of looking things up and reading I learn about the Baha'i prophecies and find out what the counter arguments are.

[shunyadragon]

Other prophecies in the Bible that are in harmony with Daniel 8:13-14.

Leviticus 26: 28-33 I will chastise you seven times . . . and I will scatter you among the heathen.

Daniel 4:13-16 Behold a watcher and a holy one came down from heaven; he cried aloud and thus . . . let seven times pass over him.

Seven times may be interpreted as seven years X 360 days = 2520 years, beginning in 667 BC. leading to 1844 as the fulfillment of the return from being scattered among the heathen.

Next the book of Revelation and 1844.

[shunyadragon]

Prophecies for more than one messiah or 'annointed one'

I interpret Genesis 3:15 to refer to the plural and I fell there is more support for this.

Zechariah 4:14 Then he said, "There are two 'annointed ones' that stand by the Lord of the whole earth."

Revelation 11:3-4 "And I will give power unto my two witnesses and they shall prophesy a thousand and two-hundred and three score days. These two olive trees and the candlesticks standing before the God of the earth."

Some interpret the two witnesses as Christ and Mohammod who will prophesy for 1260 years, which is the length of the dispensation of Islam in the Islamic calender and 1844 in the Christian calender.

[shunyadragon]

The Templers from Germany set up a monastery at the foot of Mount Carmel in the expectation of the return of Christ in the 1860's. Baha'u'llah was in prison within sight of the Templer monastery and colony.

Mount Carmel figures strongly in the prophecy of the OT.

Isaiah 35:1-2 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them and the dessert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose. It shall bloom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: The glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the Glory of the Lord, and the excellency of God.

Mount Carmel is know the Seat of the Universal House of Justice and the World Center of the Baha'i Faith. Much of the mountain is in Baha'i gardens.

[kofh2u]

The Templers from Germany set up a monastery at the foot of Mount Carmel in the expectation of the return of Christ in the 1860's. Baha'u'llah was in prison within sight of the Templer monastery and colony.

Mount Carmel figures strongly in the prophecy of the OT.

Isaiah 35:1-2 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them and the dessert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose. It shall bloom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: The glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the Glory of the Lord, and the excellency of God.

Mount Carmel is know the Seat of the Universal House of Justice and the World Center of the Baha'i Faith. Much of the mountain is in Baha'i gardens.

I assume there are congregations that meet somewhere. I wonder what the membership is.

You seem to rely on scripture solely for these connections with the "expected one" you look forward to coming. What will he do, how will you recognize him?

[One Bad Pig]

Abonination of desolation begins on that date. I believe the 'sanctuary' refers to Jerusalem and the State of Isreal. The process of fulfillment occurs over a period of time beginning in 1844. I think the timing of the prophecy clearly fits with the decree of rebuilding the temple in the same manner as Christ first fulfilled the prophecy in Daniel. The prophecies match well.

However, this makes absolutely no sense. Why would the "abomination of desolation" begin when the Jews get to restore the temple? Why would it end with a mere edict of toleration? Using these events actually weakens your case IMO.

The Bab was not the return of Christ he was the Herald or forerunner to Baha'u'llah, the return of Christ, which I will go into concerning other prophecies.

Christ's return is supposed to be with power and in triumph. I don't think Baha'u'llah qualifies on either count.

As with Christ's coming and his return many are still waiting. As for the advent of the 'annointed one' some are still trying to predict it and are waiting. Christ's lack of knowledge of his return further supports the view Christ was not God, but as he claimed he spoke for God and had no power of his own.

No, he knew not the timing of His return because He voluntarily gave up some of his divine attributes during His incarnation.

True, but these are interpretations, and likewise the Jews who are very knowledgeable concerning scripture reject Christ fulfilling the prophecies.

The Jews are less knowledgeable about the prophecies Christ fulfilled, because they deliberately avoid them. Most Jews who become Christians do so because they study the prophecies.

We agree, but then disagree on Christ. I do not think Christ is God either.

Buddha didn't come from God.

Others picked the dates of fulfillment including 1863.

Who? Why?

The purpose here is not necessarily to convince anyone. In these informal debates I learn a lot. I am not well versed on prophecies and in this process of looking things up and reading I learn about the Baha'i prophecies and find out what the counter arguments are.

That's fine. This isn't meant to be a debate forum.