Baha'i Faith and prophecy

[shunyadragon]

What does this have to do with the Baha'i faith? Why does the Baha'i faith uniquely fulfil it?

Ah! The pig is back. This one brought him out of the wilderness. I am not sure how you mean 'uniquely'. Proof is an interesting problem, but there are numerous prophecies I have cited, like those in Daniel that fit well and can be interpreted as a year is a day in the same way that the Daniel prophecies predicted Christ. I do not rely on one or two prophecies.

The Baha'i Faith fulfills it, because Baha'u'llah was brought to the foot of Mount Carmel and imprisoned there. When he was released he stayed and wrote his letters to the kings and his scripture there. It is another prophecy among many. The Baha'i Faith built their world center on Mount Carmel and planted it in gardens. The nation of Isreal is restored forever and the desert blooms.

The Templers from Germany believed this too and came to Mount Carmel at the time Baha'u'llah was there to make the deserts bloom. There homes were in sight of his prison. They failed and went home. The Baha'is succeeded and also declared that it was time for the homeland to be restablished and the deserts would bloom.

The prophecies concerning the Baha'i Faith are often better than some of the ones that Christians try to shoe horn in like the 'virgin' birth prophecy in Isaiah and the odd Micah chapter 5 prophecy, which are totally out of context and poorly translated.

You may not belive my interpretation, but my interpretation includes the whole chapter in context as in Chapter 35 of Isaiah.

The Jewish leaders of Jesus' time were apostate. They did not like it that he was pointing this out. How were Muslims (or Christians) as a whole apostate when the Bab or Baha'u'llah came? Note: You need to prove this using the Koran and the Bible, respectively; Jesus called out the Jewish leaders of his time based on the Old Testament.

You missed the point, and your question is a little confusing. Check your definitions and read my post again. Christ said a lot of things about the Jewish leaders, but He did not accuse them as apostate.

The Jews called Christ and Christianity heretics and apostacy, and still do. Christians likewise caled Moslems heretics and apostacy, as did the Christians and Moslems call the Baha'is.

I am not sure why you are concerned with the Koran your last reference to my post of a prophecy from the Koran was this:

I don't know that much about Islam, so I'll have to pass on this one. I'm assuming you're using an Arabic calendar.

[kofh2u]

shunyadragon:

1) Your worldviews expressed in your posts reflect a degree of orthodoxy, but many stray far a field, and at times they are quit unorthodox.

KOFHY:
Like what?

shunyadragon:
Christian orthodoxy would not allow any consideration of any other religion in the picture of Divine Revelation.

KOFHY:
I think you mean the party line of various denominations.

What I mean by Orthodoxy is defined in guidelines under the Christianity Forum, here on Tweb.

As far as divine revelation, I believe all true "revelation" or insight springs from divine source, although, like Cyrus the Great, the person may not realize it.

shunyadragon:

An interesting point that I might address in prophecy and history is that, like with the Jews at the time Christ came, orthodoxy of the past fails.

KOFHY:
Yes. You are talking about doctrine. I agree that people often mean "We have the truth" when they use the term orthodox.

Again, I specifically refer to the list under guidelines.

shunyadragon:
The advent is greated with hostility and labelled apostacy, heresy and persecuted. The messiah is rejected, killed or imprisoned as with Christ, Bab and Baha'u'llah.

KOFHY:
Read Matthew 5, the Beauitudes... that is how a prophet KNOWS he is in the Kingdom of Heaven. It is as it ought be!

The more violent, the more certain one can be.

[kofh2u]

The following is a prophecy that was requested by a fellow Twebber concerning Mount Carmel and the Baha'i Faith.

Isaiah 35

1 The desert and the parched land will be glad;
the wilderness will rejoice and blossom.
Like the crocus, 2 it will burst into bloom;
it will rejoice greatly and shout for joy.
The glory of Lebanon will be given to it,
the splendor of Carmel and Sharon;
they will see the glory of the LORD,
the splendor of our God.

This chapter deals with the return of the Lord to Carmel, and the blooming of the gardens of Carmel and the deserts of Isreal after the return. It also describes the restablishment of the homeland forever.



10 and the ransomed of the LORD will return.
They will enter Zion with singing;
everlasting joy will crown their heads.
Gladness and joy will overtake them,
and sorrow and sighing will flee away.

Is 35 complements so much more of this writings. The Bab correctly interprets the verse, as do/have many other Christian denominations. I am not sure if the Jews recognize the significance of this proclamation of their return to the Promised Land.

For them, it is the two-edged sword of the gentile Christian hordes. Christian "soldiers" have begun, and will finish, the reestablishment of Israel. Argue as they might, the sensitive of Christians to the Jewish plight and the recognition of scriptural prophecy have gradually brought the necessary forces together.

All that remains now is for Christians to flood the impoverished Holy Lands with an economic carrot for peace derived from massive, on-going tourism:

Isa. 60:8 Who are these that fly as a cloud (from the Americas), and as the doves (of peace) to their (cathedral) windows?

Isa. 60:1 Arise, (O'Israel), shine; for thy enlightenment is come, and
the glory of the LORD, (the meaning of Hebrew scripture), is risen upon thee.

Isa. 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth (for 1000 years), and (a Dark Age), the gross darkness of the people: but the LORD, (the Word), shall arise upon thee thereafter, and his glory shall be seen in the enlightenment upon thee.

Isa. 60:3 And the Gentiles (of Christianity) shall come to thy
enlightenment (O'Israel), and kings (of political rule) to the brightness of thy (nation's) rising.

Isa. 60:4 Lift up thine eyes you people of Israel round about, and
see: all, (the two billion Christian), they gather themselves together,
they come to thee (in the Promised Land): thy sons (of the Diaspora) shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side (from 1948 forever).

Isa. 60:5 Then, thereafter, thou shalt see (these hoards of Christianity, and ye O'Israel), flow together (with them), and thine
heart shall fear (the truth of Christ in your conversion), and be enlarged (in understanding of scripture); because the abundance of the sea (of unconscious realizations) shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles, (now Christians, two billions in number), shall come unto thee.

Isa. 60:6 The multitude of (their) camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah (Jordan of today) ; all they from Sheba shall come (to pilgrimage in the Holy Land): they shall bring gold and incense (and economic prosperity); and they shall show forth the praises of the LORD.

Isa. 60:7 All the flocks (of the Palestinian immigrants from Gaza) of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of (the West Bank) Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory, (the House of Israel and the House of Judah).

Isa. 60:8 Who are these that fly as a cloud (from the Americas), and as the doves (of peace) to their (cathedral) windows?

[shunyadragon]

shunyadragon:

1) Your worldviews expressed in your posts reflect a degree of orthodoxy, but many stray far a field, and at times they are quit unorthodox.

KOFHY:
Like what?

Unorthodox enough to raise the rancles of the orthodox. You at times broaden the concept of revelation beyond what would be acceptable to Tweb orthodoxy.

shunyadragon:
Christian orthodoxy would not allow any consideration of any other religion in the picture of Divine Revelation.

KOFHY:
I think you mean the party line of various denominations.

What I mean by Orthodoxy is defined in guidelines under the Christianity Forum, here on Tweb.

As far as divine revelation, I believe all true "revelation" or insight springs from divine source, although, like Cyrus the Great, the person may not realize it.

The orthodoxy that is defined by Tweb would be the accepted party line of most major churches and doctrine is a companion to orthodoxy and not seperate.

shunyadragon:

An interesting point that I might address in prophecy and history is that, like with the Jews at the time Christ came, orthodoxy of the past fails.

KOFHY:
Yes. You are talking about doctrine. I agree that people often mean "We have the truth" when they use the term orthodox.

Again, I specifically refer to the list under guidelines.

I consider the list guidelines to reflect the orthodoxy that I consider would fail. Again doctrine and orthodoxy are bedfellows and not seperate. The orthodoxy spelled out in the Tweb guidelines would reflect the 'We have the truth' of Christianity. Individual churches may claim to have a greater degree of exclusive truth than others, but the natural consequence of this orthodoxy and doctrine is exclusiveness.

[One Bad Pig]

Ah! The pig is back. This one brought him out of the wilderness.

I've been lurking.

I am not sure how you mean 'uniquely'. Proof is an interesting problem, but there are numerous prophecies I have cited, like those in Daniel that fit well and can be interpreted as a year is a day in the same way that the Daniel prophecies predicted Christ. I do not rely on one or two prophecies.

By 'uniquely' I mean "how does the Baha'i faith fulfill the prophecy better than any other explanation?"

The Baha'i Faith fulfills it, because Baha'u'llah was brought to the foot of Mount Carmel and imprisoned there. When he was released he stayed and wrote his letters to the kings and his scripture there. It is another prophecy among many. The Baha'i Faith built their world center on Mount Carmel and planted it in gardens. The nation of Isreal is restored forever and the desert blooms.

The Templers from Germany believed this too and came to Mount Carmel at the time Baha'u'llah was there to make the deserts bloom. There homes were in sight of his prison. They failed and went home. The Baha'is succeeded and also declared that it was time for the homeland to be restablished and the deserts would bloom.

Your statement above is rather misleading (see here). The Templars didn't fail, they got kicked out. Also, once again you're saying that the Baha'i interpretation is correct because some fringe group of Christians also believed it.

The prophecies concerning the Baha'i Faith are often better than some of the ones that Christians try to shoe horn in like the 'virgin' birth prophecy in Isaiah and the odd Micah chapter 5 prophecy, which are totally out of context and poorly translated.

You may not belive my interpretation, but my interpretation includes the whole chapter in context as in Chapter 35 of Isaiah.

Then why do you fixate on the blooming of Mt Carmel, when the prophecy lifts up Mt. Carmel as an example of what the blooming will be like (along with Lebanon and Sharon)?

You missed the point, and your question is a little confusing. Check your definitions and read my post again. Christ said a lot of things about the Jewish leaders, but He did not accuse them as apostate.

I did not miss the point. Your point was in error, IMHO, and I was correcting it. Christ broke no OT law, only those that generations of scribes had added to the OT. They wrongly called him apostate. OTOH, Christ called them hypocrites, blind guides, whitewashed tombs, etc. That pretty well describes apostacy IMO.

The Jews called Christ and Christianity heretics and apostacy, and still do. Christians likewise caled Moslems heretics and apostacy, as did the Christians and Moslems call the Baha'is.

OTOH, the veil in the Temple separating the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies split in two at the time of Christ's crucifixion, and the scarlet thread of the scapegoat stopped turning white. Jesus performed miracles that rabbis had concluded only the Messiah would be able to do, such as cleanse a Jewish leper, cast a demon out of a mute person, and heal a person blind from birth (see relevant sections here). There was ample evidence there for the Jews to accept Jesus as the Christ. However, they were more interested in maintaining the status quo than following the truth. OTOH, Muhammed didn't even have a correct understanding of Christianity (or Judaism), since he learned it from some rather unorthodox Christians (and Jews). For example, he confused Mary with the Holy Spirit. Since the Baha'i faith is an offshoot of Islam, it is difficult to imagine that the Bab or Baha'u'llah had any better understanding of Christianity. For these reasons, it is easy to see why Christians would disagree with Moslem and Baha'i teachings.

I am not sure why you are concerned with the Koran your last reference to my post of a prophecy from the Koran was this:

Jesus showed from the OT that the Jewish leaders of his day were apostate. I challenge you to show from the bible why Christians are wrong, and from the Koran why Moslems are wrong.

[shunyadragon]

I've been lurking.

By 'uniquely' I mean "how does the Baha'i faith fulfill the prophecy better than any other explanation?"
Your statement above is rather misleading (see here). The Templars didn't fail, they got kicked out. Also, once again you're saying that the Baha'i interpretation is correct because some fringe group of Christians also believed it.

The reference you gave is fairly accurate. I do not think what I said was misleading in anyway. I have not seen any other explanation that fits the chapter better than what has actually happened in the past ~170 years. The Templers failed regardless of the reason. The Baha'is stayed despite wars, persecution, imprisonment and efforts to kick them out.

The reference to the beliefs of the Templers shows, like other instances that I referenced, that the Baha'i belief is not unique concerning prophecy and many people all over the world shared similar visions at the same time.

Then why do you fixate on the blooming of Mt Carmel, when the prophecy lifts up Mt. Carmel as an example of what the blooming will be like (along with Lebanon and Sharon)?

I did not fixate on the blooming of Mt Carmel. I also included the 'blooming of isreal' as well as Carmel. What happened is as the prophesy stated.

I believe that based on history. this has happened, 'when the prophecy lifts up Mt. Carmel as an example of what the blooming will be like (along with Lebanon and Sharon).'

I did not miss the point. Your point was in error, IMHO, and I was correcting it. Christ broke no OT law, only those that generations of scribes had added to the OT. They wrongly called him apostate. OTOH, Christ called them hypocrites, blind guides, whitewashed tombs, etc. That pretty well describes apostacy IMO.

This is not what apostacy means. Apostacy is the accusation of leaving, breaking away from an older established religion or faith. Religons and faiths that form based on the teachings of a new messiah or leader are considered apostacy by the leadership and/or believers. The charge of apostacy would be someone who departs from previous orthodoxy and doctrine, and Christ did this, if not to the extent Paul did in creating a greater chasm between Judaism and the new faith Christianity in both theology, orthodoxy and doctrine.

Jesus showed from the OT that the Jewish leaders of his day were apostate. I challenge you to show from the bible why Christians are wrong, and from the Koran why Moslems are wrong.

You are still trying to look at this as defending your view. Apostate would not be 'what the Jewish leaders were' regardless of who was right or wrong. This thread is not about 'showing who is right or wrong' in terms of orthodoxy and doctrine. It is about prophecy. There are other threads that challenge Christian theology concerning issues like the trinity.

[One Bad Pig]

The reference you gave is fairly accurate. I do not think what I said was misleading in anyway. I have not seen any other explanation that fits the chapter better than what has actually happened in the past ~170 years. The Templers failed regardless of the reason. The Baha'is stayed despite wars, persecution, imprisonment and efforts to kick them out.

The Baha'is weren't enemies of the state, though.

The reference to the beliefs of the Templers shows, like other instances that I referenced, that the Baha'i belief is not unique concerning prophecy and many people all over the world shared similar visions at the same time.

...and all the others were kooks.

I did not fixate on the blooming of Mt Carmel. I also included the 'blooming of isreal' as well as Carmel. What happened is as the prophesy stated.

So the Baha'is are laying claim to making Israel bloom again, even though they're a small minority of the population?

This is not what apostacy means. Apostacy is the accusation of leaving, breaking away from an older established religion or faith. Religons and faiths that form based on the teachings of a new messiah or leader are considered apostacy by the leadership and/or believers. The charge of apostacy would be someone who departs from previous orthodoxy and doctrine, and Christ did this, if not to the extent Paul did in creating a greater chasm between Judaism and the new faith Christianity in both theology, orthodoxy and doctrine.

The Jewish leaders had been breaking away from proper observance of the Torah for centuries; that's the reason the Jews lost their kindom. The major and minor prophets show quite plainly that the Jews were not following the Old Covenant (which is why there was a need for a New Covenant).

[shunyadragon]

The Baha'is weren't enemies of the state, though.
...and all the others were kooks.

They were considered enemies of the state when it was Islamic. After it became a British protectorate the Baha'i Faith was still considered an enemy of the religious leadership. They are still considered enemies of the state in Islamic countries.

So the Baha'is are laying claim to making Israel bloom again, even though they're a small minority of the population?

No, God did. It was the fulfillment of prophecy.

The Jewish leaders had been breaking away from proper observance of the Torah for centuries; that's the reason the Jews lost their kindom. The major and minor prophets show quite plainly that the Jews were not following the Old Covenant (which is why there was a need for a New Covenant).

This may or may not be true, but it does not represent apostacy. I agree that the Jews were corrupted by Greco-Roman influences and collusion, but that is another issue and topic.

[kofh2u]

No, God did. It was the fulfillment of prophecy.

Yes, it is as Jesus said, these are my brothers, those who do the word of my Father...

Your Bab may or may not be esteeemed as messiah, but your people, in recognizing the meaning of so much scripture... Zechariah 13, 14, Isaiah 66, 60, 61, 62, 35...
I can not be taken away that the words you say are God's:

Isa. 66:7 Before (Israeli Statehood) she travailed, she brought forth; before (sovereign nationality) her pain came (in Holocaust), she was delivered of a (Christian) man child.

Isa. 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to bring forth (a new country) in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as (had) Zion travailed (in the United Nation approval), she brought forth her children (from the ends of the earth).

Isa. 66:9 Shall I bring to the birth (this nation, Israel), and not
cause to bring forth (my prophecies)? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth (this one prediction), and shut the womb (from those prophecies remaining)? saith thy God.

Isa. 66:10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:

Isa. 66:11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her
consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.

Isa. 66:12 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river (of peacemakers), and the glory of the (Christian) Gentiles like a flowing stream (of tourism): then shall ye suck (the economic gains), ye shall be borne upon her sides (of historical sites), and be dandled (as the Holy People of the Book) upon her knees.

[One Bad Pig]

They were considered enemies of the state when it was Islamic. After it became a British protectorate the Baha'i Faith was still considered an enemy of the religious leadership. They are still considered enemies of the state in Islamic countries.

Evidently they aren't considered enough of a bother to slaughter or kick out. Religious differences are one thing; enemy citizenship (with fervent support of the homeland's policies) in time of war is entirely a different matter.

No, God did. It was the fulfillment of prophecy.

What did the Baha'is have to do with the fulfillment of the prophecy? If they just happened to arrive about the time that the efforts of the Templars started the process of turning the desert into a garden, why does it apply to you over the Jews (who also were beginning to resettle there) for whom the prophecy was written in the first place?

This may or may not be true, but it does not represent apostacy. I agree that the Jews were corrupted by Greco-Roman influences and collusion, but that is another issue and topic.

Okay, I looked up "apostacy". I apologize; I was using the term incorrectly. The corruption of the Jews began long before Greco-Roman influence began to impact them; it's why they lost their kindoms. However, the Jews incorrectly labeled the Christians as apostate. They were considered a sect of Judaism from the Roman POV (an important distinction back then).

[kofh2u]

(Kofh's augmentation of orthodox Christian interpretations add specifics. Kofh fills in many omitted meanings. The previous generations could not have known what we of this 21st Century can now see.)

Shuny says that these additions and embellishments are:

"Unorthodox enough to raise the rancles of the orthodox.

You at times broaden the concept of revelation beyond what would be acceptable to Tweb orthodoxy.


The orthodoxy that is defined by Tweb...

(IS SPECIFIED AND ENUMERATED)

..would be the accepted party line of most major churches... and...

(THESE CHURCHES INSIST ON DOGMA NOT ESSENTIAL TO THE ENUMERATED ORTHODOX BELIEFS)

...doctrine is a companion to orthodoxy and not seperate.


I consider the list guidelines to reflect the orthodoxy that I consider would fail. Again doctrine and orthodoxy are bedfellows and not seperate.

(HERE WE SEE A MODERN PRIESTHOOD SITTING IN THE SEAT OF CHRIST)


The orthodoxy spelled out in the Tweb guidelines would reflect the 'We have the truth' of Christianity.
(I AM HOPING NOT)


Individual churches may claim to have a greater degree of exclusive truth than others, but the natural consequence of this orthodoxy and doctrine is exclusiveness.

Matt. 23:30 And say, If we, (the orthodoxy, the pharisees, of our own generation, likened today, to include even certain Christian bible experts), had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the (solitary, self-proclaiming) prophets, (in the human sacrifice of Jesus, called the Christ).
Matt. 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, (vain Bible lawyers), that ye are the (genetically related) children of them (who think so common to this Modern Homo sapien species) which killed the (solitary, self-proclaiming) prophets, (including Jesus Christ, whom you offered in humansacrifice to perserve a failed Judaism).

[Richbee]

Thank you Frank!!!

Frank, I don't believe that you are approaching this stumbling block with intellectual honesty. Perhaps you were raised as a Christian, and later rejected all of Christian teaching, because you suffered some bad experiences, but in matters of our Christine doctrine, we do have a few that are non-negotiable, and the Trinity is ONE of them.

You seem more Anti-Christian than Baha'i. Is this any way to Unite all peoples to worship ONE God?

Any assertions that the Christian Trinity is Greco-Roman pagan god(s) worship, is well, quite frankly Anti-Jewish, Anti-Jesus-the-Jew, and Anti-Biblical.

Now, a much more honest approach, would be to say, I can't find the unity in the tri-unity, the three appear to be three, where is the oneness?

You mentioned, that you accept, and here we agree that Jesus himself recited the Shema, Mark 12:28-30 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this:

Scripture Verse:

Mark:28-30

'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'

I hope I have quoted this correctly and that together we agree on this, and note, this should go a long way for those skeptical of the New Testament, and refute those who would alledge some Greco-Roman pagan mythical words in the mouth of Jesus. Are we one the same page? Jesus is quoting from Deuteronomy 6:4-5.

You will, I trust, agree, that here, we have something that Jesus wouldn't likely do if it contradicted anything he believed about the nature of God. Jesus affirmed the "oneness" of God, that He was the only God to whom all of our allegiance is due.

Correct?

I hope you can see from this that the Shema can't really be used to argue against Christianity's view of God. Both the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament use the Shema in the exact same way; to pledge allegiance to the one true God of the universe, YHVH.

So, where we differ, is in perceiving, or seeing the nature of God.

I challenge you to discover the plurality in God's nature in the OT! If you deny this, then you deny the Jewish faith, as well, and this might be the CRUX of the issue. (I have a feeling a Shi'ite Muslim could have a problem with Hebrew as well, as we know as a fact that Mohammed could neither read nor write.)

I do appreciate that the paradoxes or mysteries of the Bible can be challenging, and I should remember, that I cannot win a battle of words, or score points. After all, you can just keep scrolling and sing along with lalalalalala in your head, or day dream about flying back to America, to see family and friends and I am left tying empty bits and bytes into a 2 dimensional cyber or digital whole in our cyberspace-time-space continuum.

So, please accept, or at least walk a few more spaces with me, and consider, that in some mysterious way, God is One, and greater than one. God is not someone that can be put in a box or dealt with in mathematical terms. (linear) God is certainly complex in his oneness, and it's easy to see this in the Hebrew Scriptures as well as the New Testament. Yeah, I said EASY! (Jesus said, my burden is light...)

In the Hebrew Bible, we see this complexity in 1 Kings 8:27, when Solomon builds the Temple for God: "But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!" Yet God does come and fill the Temple, without diminishing any of his Godness that is still filling the heavens. We also see, in Gen. 19:24, Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah--from the LORD out of the heavens and in both cases it is God, YHVH, the LORD who was talking to Abraham, and the Lord who was up in the heavens. At the same time we see in the Scriptures God's Spirit come upon the prophets, and on King Saul and David (who cries out in Psalm 51:11, Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.) What is clear is that God's oneness is not as simple a matter as some would like to believe. And we see God reveal Himself as a man, often called "The Angel of the LORD," See Genesis 32:28-30, with whom does Jacob wrestle with?

Let me stop, do you have a problem with Hebrew, because Saul or Paul was an expert, and a Hebrew of Hebrews, not a Greek Jew raised in the Greek Temples, or Greek Jewish, but a Jew, raised speaking and studying in Hebrew.
Thus, a Hebrew of Hebrews.

What I'd like to show you is that in the Hebrew Scriptures and tradition is that there are definite understandings of an "eternal Son of God," also called "the Word of the Lord" that in the New Testament is finally revealed as Jesus, the word made flesh that you can find in John 1:14; and that the Holy Spirit, also called in the Hebrew Scriptures the Shekinah, is not only present in the Hebrew Bible, but serves exactly the same purpose as in the New Testament. My point is that although Christianity took these Biblical passages, and explained them in the doctrine of The Trinity (which might be better understood as God having a "tri-une" nature) it doesn't make the concept any less Jewish, or take away from the foundation of the Jewish faith, and the the Shema.

Now, going forward, please appreciate that as a Christian, I believe that you have no right to twist our scriptures and we reserve the right to ex-communicate or reject false prophets who teach a different gospel message, and we need to get square on this, and grow up to the big mature truth that the Bab' or Baba was never a Christian, and never claimed any unique or inside position in the Jewish faith or the Hebrew of the OT, and so accordingly, please stop channeling the false prophet, and the Anti-Christ mantra.

I believe in your Religious freedom and if you wish to reject the Christian faith and Jesus, fine, go your own path, but please, please....



....teaching a different gospel, than the Christian gospel, and stop teaching outside of the Jewish faith, because if you can't get this straight, you are rendered irrational, illogical and incoherent in any Religious debate, as you have no foundation to assert any premise about the nature of God for Jews and Jesus-the-Jew, and for Saul/Paul the Hebrew of Hebrews, and the Pharisee of Pharisees, and the apostle of the resurrected Jesus Christ, God, God of God, the only begotten Son of God, the one sent by the Father, and ONE with the FATHER, separate, distinct "persona", yet One with the Father.

Now, on what grounds do you reject Jesus?

Jesus Himself prayed,

Scripture Verse:

John 17:2-3

"[Father], You have granted [me] authority over all people that [I] might give eternal life to all those you have given [me]. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

John R.W. Stott writes,"If Jesus was not God in human flesh, Christianity is exploded. We are left with just another religion with some beautiful ideas and noble ethics; its unique distinction would then be gone."

Peace, and Happy New Year! Note, that I will stand with you for your own Religious Freedom from Tibet to Beijing and from Nepal to Washington D.C.

So, "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness....." and Love to you, and Love to all whom you love and cherish,

Sincerely, Richard "B." Goode

P.S. I would also pray that you repent, or turn around and you will find Jesus one step back, where you left him years ago, and I pray that no one, including me dies in their sins. (See John 8:21-23)

[shunyadragon]

Frank, I don't believe that you are approaching this stumbling block with intellectual honesty. Perhaps you were raised as a Christian, and later rejected all of Christian teaching, because you suffered some bad experiences, but in matters of our Christine doctrine, we do have a few that are non-negotiable, and the Trinity is ONE of them.

Intellectual honesty here is used here more to say we strongly disagree. The trinity issue is not a part of this thread.

You seem more Anti-Christian than Baha'i. Is this any way to Unite all peoples to worship ONE God?

I do not believe that disagreement with the orthodoxy and doctrine of traditional Christianity is being anti-Christian. Your attacks are more scathing and negative than almost everyone else on Tweb and very anti-everything that does not agree with your worldview. This is attitude very intellectually dishonest, because your presuppositions determine your entire worldview. Arguing entirely from presupposition has no intellectual content.

Any assertions that the Christian Trinity is Greco-Roman pagan god(s) worship, is well, quite frankly Anti-Jewish, Anti-Jesus-the-Jew, and Anti-Biblical.

I do not think you can speak for the Jews of the world and history. I believe all the Jewish theologians, Rabbis, scholars and most believers throughout recorded history, and an objective view of the OT would agree with me that the doctrine of the trinity in traditional Christianity is false and a Greco-Roman pagan belief.

You mentioned, that you accept, and here we agree that Jesus himself recited the Shema, Mark 12:28-30 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this:


I hope I have quoted this correctly and that together we agree on this, and note, this should go a long way for those skeptical of the New Testament, and refute those who would alledge some Greco-Roman pagan mythical words in the mouth of Jesus. Are we one the same page? Jesus is quoting from Deuteronomy 6:4-5.

You will, I trust, agree, that here, we have something that Jesus wouldn't likely do if it contradicted anything he believed about the nature of God. Jesus affirmed the "oneness" of God, that He was the only God to whom all of our allegiance is due.

Correct?

Correct! I agree, but the doctrine of the trinity is still false. I believe the doctrine of the trinity is Paulist, and not Christian.