Originally posted by AkByR64
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If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Presuppositional Apolgetic
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by firstfloor View PostThe classical axioms of logic [Identity, Excluded Middle, Non-Contradiction] are all propositions about how reality operates. Therefore they are summaries of natural laws or, another way to look at it is that they come out of the consistent regularity of light and matter in motion.
It is interesting to speculate further about why matter is so consistent but at the moment there are no definite answers that I am aware of. [Insert God of gaps here.]
So, the laws of logic would still apply outside the universe. Therefore the laws of logic couldn't be propositions about how reality operates. See how easy that is?
Furthermore, we've never find the laws of logic under a rock or water. So that in of itself defeats physical materialism. Since these laws are not physical, by definition they transcend the physical world because the physical world depends upon them to exist.Yeng Vg
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Originally posted by AkByR64 View PostThe problem with that is that if the laws of logic were contingent upon the universe, then I want you to think about this proposition "Before the universe existed, it was true that the universe did not exist".
So, the laws of logic would still apply outside the universe.
Therefore the laws of logic couldn't be propositions about how reality operates. See how easy that is?
Furthermore, we've never find the laws of logic under a rock or water. So that in of itself defeats physical materialism.
Since these laws are not physical, by definition they transcend the physical world because the physical world depends upon them to exist.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Before the Universe existed, the words "before" "the" "Universe" and "existed" have no meaning at all. Logic does not pre-date existence. There is no true or false in that domainLast edited by firstfloor; 05-18-2015, 07:27 AM.“I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
“And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
“not all there” - you know who you are
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Originally posted by firstfloor View PostBefore the Universe existed, the words "before" "the" "Universe" and "existed" have no meaning at all. Logic does not pre-date existence. There is no true or false in that domain. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostYou are using universe to mean existence. Indeed that the universe is understood to include existence in that the universe like existence possesses everything. A thing in the universe is not the universe. A thing in existence is not existence proper. I make a distinction between a thing which exists and the existence in which the the thing exists. A thing has existence in space which is in the universe which is in existence.“I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
“And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
“not all there” - you know who you are
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostYou are using universe to mean existence.
A thing in the universe is not the universe.
A thing in existence is not existence proper. I make a distinction between a thing which exists and the existence in which the the thing exists. A thing has existence in space which is in the universe which is in existence.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by firstfloor View PostBefore the Universe existed, the words "before" "the" "Universe" and "existed" have no meaning at all. Logic does not pre-date existence. There is no true or false in that domainYeng Vg
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostWe do not know that the universe began to exist or not.
But let's assume you are right. We don't know. If we don't know, then how can they claim to know so much about the quantum sea of energy from which the singularity POTENTuality came from?
How can they KNOW since you said we cannot KNOW? Are you saying they are wrong? Is that what you mean? lol.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostNo your reasoning is flawed assuming that our physical existence including all possible universes began to exist. This is unknown. Not really easy at all.Last edited by AkByR64; 06-12-2015, 08:17 PM.Yeng Vg
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Originally posted by AkByR64 View PostYes it does have "meaning" because the word existence means all possibilities. You probably aren't aware of this but scientists even go as far as theorize M-theory which is outside of this universe. If there's no meaning before the universe then how do you explain quantum physics to be able to think about the quantum state? This is precisely the mechanics about the nature of the universe PRIOR to the BIG BANG.“I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
“And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
“not all there” - you know who you are
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostYes, The best definition here is the greater cosmos that contains all possible universes.
True, planets, stars, and galaxies is not the universe.
This distinction is arbitrary, a basis of your assumption of belief that there is world of existence that is greater than our physical existence. Both of us believe in God that is the source of everything, but unfortunately your argument is too circular. The known universe and all possible universes possibly constitutes all of existence.
Therefore, logically speaking, knowing that the universe had a transcendent cause by one not made here in this universe does not mean it doesn't exist.Last edited by AkByR64; 06-12-2015, 08:40 PM.Yeng Vg
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Originally posted by AkByR64 View PostThe vast majority of scientists seem to agree the universe began 13.5 billion years. If you deny this then you are going against mainstream science. I'm not claiming that I know this. Science isn't in the business of knowing, only that it is the best available data.
Again scientists do not 'know' that our universe is the beginning of anything other then the universe as we experience.
But let's assume you are right. We don't know. If we don't know, then how can they claim to know so much about the quantum sea of energy from which the singularity POTENTuality came from?
How can they KNOW since you said we cannot KNOW? Are you saying they are wrong? Is that what you mean? lol.
Again science doesn't deal with knowledge. Science deals with theory. And there are no theory of any kind that don't propose things similar to the classic definition of God as an explanation. Every theory propose things that lie outside of our own laws and universe. And since it transcend this universe (space time energy matter)..how is that any different than say God did it?... Or that it began to exist? Every theory had a beginning all the way down to subatomic particles... even if it didn't begin in this universe, it still began in other universe.Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-12-2015, 08:48 PM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by AkByR64 View PostThe big bang theory postulates the origin of space and time. So whatever caused it had to be outside of it's own dimension. That is why a supernatural cause is needed to explain it because it is the beginning of the universe out of nothing. Logical deduction.
Therefore, logically speaking, knowing that the universe had a transcendent cause by one not made here in this universe does not mean it doesn't exist.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe highlighted is problematic. First, science is not a popularity poll.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostSecond, it is generally accepted that the beginning of our universe, IF there was ever actually a beginning, IS NOT consider the beginning of our physical existence which contains our universe. I do not think you are aware of what actual data the science of physics and cosmology is based on.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostAgain scientists do not 'know' that our universe is the beginning of anything other then the universe as we experience.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostAs noted above scientist are not in the 'know' business, therefore do not claim so. The science of cosmology and physics is firmly based in falsifiable objective methodology.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostAs noted above scientist are not in the 'know' business, therefore do not claim so.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostScience does deal with knowledge. The difference between beliefs, meanings and definitions of God is that this represents extremely anecdotal claims. The knowledge and theories are based on objective methods of methodological naturalism. The comparison is not valid.Last edited by AkByR64; 06-12-2015, 10:16 PM.Yeng Vg
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostNot detached logical deduction nor reasoning. There are many theories involved in the nature of the quantum world and the beginnings of all possible universes. The beginning of a universe as the beginning of space and time of that one universe. there are not proposed alternate dimensions in science, only the quantum world from which all possible universes originate.
'knowing?' I do not believe it is 'known' one way or another.Yeng Vg
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