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Perform Same-Sex Marriage Or Go To Jail !!!!!!

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  • Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
    wat
    In the Real World, a great many gay people are devout Christians. They wish to marry just like others, and they desire that their marriage be recognized by their faith as a genuine religious marriage -- as well as a legal contract with the government.

    Are you volunteering to tell them "sorry, your sincere religious beliefs don't count because you're gay"?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by phank View Post
      In the Real World, a great many gay people are devout Christians. They wish to marry just like others, and they desire that their marriage be recognized by their faith as a genuine religious marriage -- as well as a legal contract with the government.

      Are you volunteering to tell them "sorry, your sincere religious beliefs don't count because you're gay"?
      Nobody is preventing private gay marriages. There's no requirement to have the marriage observed by the state.
      "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

      There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
        Nobody is preventing private gay marriages. There's no requirement to have the marriage observed by the state.
        Traditional Christians expect their religious marriages to be recognized by the state but they insist that gay people (Christians, Jews, whatever) do not have the same freedom to exercise their religious or civil rights?
        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

        Comment


        • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
          Traditional Christians expect their religious marriages to be recognized by the state but they insist that gay people (Christians, Jews, whatever) do not have the same freedom to exercise their religious or civil rights?
          Ignoring your gross equivocations (freedom and rights have nothing to do with it), it's like saying that liberals expect poor people to get welfare but not rich people (or corporations). It's a limited benefit, not a right or a restriction on freedom.
          "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

          There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
            Ignoring your gross equivocations (freedom and rights have nothing to do with it), it's like saying that liberals expect poor people to get welfare but not rich people (or corporations). It's a limited benefit, not a right or a restriction on freedom.
            Why is marriage not a matter of religious freedom?

            Why is marriage not considered a civil right?

            You consider marriage to be somehow similar to welfare???
            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

            Comment


            • Originally posted by phank View Post
              In the Real World, a great many gay people are devout Christians. They wish to marry just like others, and they desire that their marriage be recognized by their faith as a genuine religious marriage -- as well as a legal contract with the government.

              Are you volunteering to tell them "sorry, your sincere religious beliefs don't count because you're gay"?
              Sincerity doesn't make reality phank. Many people are sincere, but it doesn't make them right.

              Besides, why would you want to force other people to accept you and your beliefs? Doesn't make very much sense to me...
              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

              Comment


              • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                Why is marriage not a matter of religious freedom?
                Because religion doesn't require you to obtain a government certificate for marriage.

                Why is marriage not considered a civil right?
                For the same reason welfare isn't.

                You consider marriage to be somehow similar to welfare???
                State sanctioned marriage, yes, it's a benefit for people who meet the criteria.
                "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                  Because religion doesn't require you to obtain a government certificate for marriage.
                  Of course. Thus, civil marriage is not a religious obligation. But citizens nonetheless have a right to get married, as they define marriage according to their religious beliefs or lack thereof, of course, within limits defined by the state (eg, state prohibition of polygamy, age of consent).

                  Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                  For the same reason welfare isn't.

                  State sanctioned marriage, yes, it's a benefit for people who meet the criteria.
                  Marriage is not considered a civil right for the same reason that welfare is not considered a civil right? I do not understand your supposed equivalence between marriage and welfare. Welfare involves financial and material support provided by the government to poor, disabled, orphans, ie, people in need. How is marriage like that? Marriage is a benefit provided by the state? No. Marriage is a (sometimes religious) legal contract between two people, regardless of their dependence upon the state.
                  βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                  ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                  אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by phank View Post
                    In the Real World, a great many gay people are devout Christians. They wish to marry just like others, and they desire that their marriage be recognized by their faith as a genuine religious marriage -- as well as a legal contract with the government.

                    Are you volunteering to tell them "sorry, your sincere religious beliefs don't count because you're gay"?
                    I question the devoutness of those who give more weight to their sexual urges than the teachings of scripture. And yes, I'm willing to tell them that.
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      You don't get it robrecht - I don't care, no man should have to compromise his religious beliefs in the market place. This was never the case for most of our history - this is just one more example as to why anti-discrimination laws are so pernicious. And antithetical to human freedom.
                      Freedom of religion in the US means freedom to hold an opinion or belief; it does not mean one can take action in violation of social duties or subversive to good order. Thus, while the freedom to believe any religious dogma you choose is absolute, the freedom to act on it is constrained by the laws of the land. It cannot impinge upon the rights of others.
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                        Freedom of religion in the US means freedom to hold an opinion or belief; it does not mean one can take action in violation of social duties or subversive to good order. Thus, while the freedom to believe any religious dogma you choose is absolute, the freedom to act on it is constrained by the laws of the land. It cannot impinge upon the rights of others.
                        Yep, because everybody knows that holding the equivalent of a shotgun to the back of the wedding officiate saying to officiate this wedding or else they go to jail is a great and wonderful way to start off a marriage and in no way impinges upon the rights of a wedding officiate to pick and choose what weddings they want to officiate and what weddings they don't want to officiate (I know plenty of marriages between a man and woman that members of the clergy didn't want to officiate, but that doesn't stop them from asking somebody else or just getting married by a judge). Tazzy Wazzy's tolerance in action again. Don't you just love the Tazzy Wazzy brand of tolerance (according to him, I have a major mental disorder that he seems to think can be diagnosed online, so don't take a word he says seriously. I sure don't)?
                        Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 10-22-2014, 08:43 PM.
                        "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                        GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                          . . .but that doesn't stop them from asking somebody else or just getting married by a judge.
                          That is not fair. That way they could not shove their sexual perversion in the face of someone who might object.
                          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                            That is not fair. That way they could not shove their sexual perversion in the face of someone who might object.
                            Yeah, but this is their version of tolerance, in action. It appears shot gun weddings are coming back into style these days. The only difference is that the shot gun is now pointed at the officiate instead of the groom. Sounds like a great way to remember your wedding to share in the future. I can see it now:

                            "Remember that time that minister didn't want to marry us, so we sued him to make him marry us or else he went to jail. That was such a nice judge, we'll have to send him a Christmas card next year."

                            Some good wedding memories there...
                            "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                            GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by lilpixieoferror View Post
                              ...the rights of a wedding officiate to pick and choose what weddings they want to officiate and what weddings they don't want to officiate
                              Maybe you can clear up some confusion I have here. If I open a commercial, for-profit business as a wedding mill, rather than being part of a private nonprofit recognized tax exempt church, have I given up any of my religious protections? Robrecht seems to be implying that there is some legal dance I can perform which will let me run a business free of the need all other businesses have not to discriminate on the basis of something I using to discriminate. Is this true? Is there some form I can sign, some official legal government get-out-of-obeying-the-law-free card?

                              I know that other specifications on the announced ordinance list (race, gender, national origin, whatever) have no such option - you simply cannot refuse to serve negroes at your lunch counter no matter what forms you sign. Is the wedding mill business granted a special exemption?

                              Maybe another way of asking is, if a judge should rule in favor of the business in this case, what would be the rationale? Would the judge say "well, you can't discriminate on the basis of religion EXCEPT in this case"? Or would the judge point to Robrecht's special dispensation form, or what?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                                That is not fair. That way they could not shove their sexual perversion in the face of someone who might object.
                                Ah, I understand. If someone is breaking the law in a way you like, then the VICTIM is at fault for not going to someone who is NOT breaking the law. At least, if the victim is a pervert.

                                Comment

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