Eternal security makes no sense to Rando!

[GoBahnsen]

Only His own

This Orm said in refererence to Jesus being the Author of faith (Heb 12:2). But virtually all the Bible translators refer to Jesus as being the Author of "our" faith. Why would Jesus Author His faith? Was Jesus saved by faith? No...He needed no Salvation. He is the giver of Salvation and the One who Author's our's, if we have it, and He Finishes it as well.

In John 10 we're told by Jesus that none can snatch us out of His hand or the Father's. That's pretty secure.
Heb 12:2

(ALT) looking with undivided attention to the Originator and Perfecter of [our] faith-Jesus-who, because of the joy being set before Him, endured a cross, having disregarded [the] shame, and has sat down at [the] right hand of the throne of God.

(ASV) looking unto Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising shame, and hath sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

(BBE) Having our eyes fixed on Jesus, the guide and end of our faith, who went through the pains of the cross, not caring for the shame, because of the joy which was before him, and who has now taken his place at the right hand of God's seat of power.

(ESV) looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

(ISV) looking off to Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of the faith, who, in view of the joy set before him endured the cross, despising its shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

(KJV+) Looking872 unto1519 Jesus2424 the3588 author747 and2532 finisher5051 of our faith;4102 who3739 for473 the3588 joy5479 that was set before4295 him848 endured5278 the cross,4716 despising2706 the shame,152 and5037 is set down2523 at1722 the right hand1188 of the3588 throne2362 of God.2316

(LITV) looking to the Author and Finisher of our faith, Jesus, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, "and sat down at the right" of the throne of God. Psa. 110:1

(Webster) Looking to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

(WNT) simply fixing our gaze upon Jesus, our Prince Leader in the faith, who will also award us the prize. He, for the sake of the joy which lay before Him, patiently endured the cross, looking with contempt upon its shame, and afterwards seated Himself-- where He still sits--at the right hand of the throne of God.

(YLT) looking to the author and perfecter of faith--Jesus, who, over-against the joy set before him--did endure a cross, shame having despised, on the right hand also of the throne of God did sit down;

[Trout]

GB,

You are a bible quoting maniac.

[GoBahnsen]

GB,

You are a bible quoting maniac.

I'll take that as a compliment. I do find it consistent that the Arminians (some of them) on this board, do believe they can lose their salvation. Afterall, they start theirs, so they think.

And then they have a field day with all the exhortations to believers to not depart from the faith (as if true elect believers could). But they seem to ignore the powerful truth of Scripture that Salvation is of the Lord. He has mercy an whom He wills and whom He wills He hardens.

I remember as a young Arminian I was often taken up with youthful lusts and temptations. At times I would yield under the idea that "I'll repent later".
"After all...I'm young, I have time...I can eat some forbidden fruit, spit it out later and tell God I'm sorry."

I lacked the Reformed understanding that would have warned me that repentance is not within my own power ultimately. I thought, as an Arminian, I was in control of faith and repentance. Little care had I that God could have determined that I should not come back to Him. I played games with God, because I thought I could.

A proper understanding of faith and repentance causes one to value them above gold, yeah much fine gold. They are gifts of grace, never to be treated as if they are within our power to execute at our determined time and place.

The Arminians have God in a place of hoping we will "get it together" and stay that way. They fail to see adoption and God's determination to not lose any of His own. Because, after all, just like in adoption, the children don't go looking for their new parents...rather they are found by them. When God adopts us, He does so with a design to take us all the way, not half way.

[lee_merrill]

Lee: Now this was spoken to disciples, people who had, in a sense, believed in Jesus. But Jesus says here "you do not believe." So I do think belief is spoken of in different senses in the Bible...

Ormly: Unregenerate disciples. Lets not convienently overlook that. In other words they were mere converts to Him.

Yes, I am saying "you do not believe … you are of your father the devil" cannot mean real saving faith in Jn. 8:30, and similarly in the soil that had no root.

Lee: Surely [Heb. 12:2] means our faith, and Jesus starts it, and he will finish it, otherwise he comes under his own condemnation:

Ormly: Never. It is His faith in you that He is the author of, not your faith. Gal 2.20 -- Yours only took you to Him, like the woman with the issue of blood. If you don't believe that then you are left with a contradiction since it was the faith she had when she went to Him for healing whereby she was healed. He said so. Who authored the faith in her but her?

If it's faith that has a beginning, because it has an author, then our faith must be the focus, the Bible does speak in this way. Thus Jesus authored the faith of the woman who came for healing, it is literally "the author of faith" as you pointed out, so if you are reading this verse in this way, then Jesus must be the author of the woman's faith.

If I have faith that takes me to Jesus, that Jesus is not the author of, then Heb. 12:2 is false, no matter how you translate it.

And Jesus will complete the job his started! Let's not skip that part, that's the focus of this thread, if he begins to build, he will finish…

Blessings,
Lee

[GoBahnsen]

Where is Rando? He comes in here to Theo 201...author's a thread and now he's not going to finish it? I put up a good post last time and I got nothing.

[Amazing Rando]

Sorry! GB, I was out all day! I see this thread's blossomed a lot since I was here last. I'll go hunt for your post.

[Amazing Rando]

You think it's your faith that is saving you?

No, I think that it is God's grace that is saving me through my faith.

[Amazing Rando]

Certainly from our side of things, I can see what you're saying. But what I'm trusting in is for God to save me, not my faith and making sure I keep it up. I'm trusting in God to be greater than my faith or lack thereof. And I have to believe that this confidence is Holy Spirit produced.

Just like faith that the Bible is God's Word is Holy Spirit produced. You can give a person a ton of evidence to believe the Bible is God's Word, but ultimately the difference between the true believer and the false is the activity of the Holy Spirit.

If my faith is not Holy Spirit produced then it is not genuine and I might believe for a while and fade away. Either way, I wasn't saved if my faith is not produced by God's Spirit.

Would you then argue that all apostates never had the Holy Spirit? Not even at their most faithful to God?

So it is God who saves from beginning to end. Author and Finisher of my faith. If I author my faith it is nothing and will not be saved. If God Author's my faith, He will sustain it and Finish it. Make sense?

Yes- I'm not disputing that. But we are saved by grace- through faith. If we end that faithful relationship, there's no means by which grace can work.

[Amazing Rando]

Perhaps Rando, Seer, or any other adherent of "temporal security" can provide one named human example of any believer who lost their "eternal security" and is said to be going to the Lake of Fire???

One would think that a named example for such a thing is in order.

Unquestionably one can fall prey to "the devil" after "salvation." This does not equate to "eternal loss" of same.

How about Judas?

You don't have to look far. Just go into the Apologetics section and ask the former Christians there who have fallen away from their faith if they were "real believers." Almost all will answer in the affirmative. Are they lying to us?

[Arminian]

I'll take that as a compliment. I do find it consistent that the Arminians (some of them) on this board, do believe they can lose their salvation. Afterall, they start theirs, so they think.

And then they have a field day with all the exhortations to believers to not depart from the faith (as if true elect believers could). But they seem to ignore the powerful truth of Scripture that Salvation is of the Lord. He has mercy an whom He wills and whom He wills He hardens.

I remember as a young Arminian I was often taken up with youthful lusts and temptations. At times I would yield under the idea that "I'll repent later".
"After all...I'm young, I have time...I can eat some forbidden fruit, spit it out later and tell God I'm sorry."

I lacked the Reformed understanding that would have warned me that repentance is not within my own power ultimately. I thought, as an Arminian, I was in control of faith and repentance. Little care had I that God could have determined that I should not come back to Him. I played games with God, because I thought I could.

A proper understanding of faith and repentance causes one to value them above gold, yeah much fine gold. They are gifts of grace, never to be treated as if they are within our power to execute at our determined time and place.

The Arminians have God in a place of hoping we will "get it together" and stay that way. They fail to see adoption and God's determination to not lose any of His own. Because, after all, just like in adoption, the children don't go looking for their new parents...rather they are found by them. When God adopts us, He does so with a design to take us all the way, not half way.

Your strange and ironic (ironic in a number of ways you apparently are unaware of...) introspective ramblings aside, the traditional Arminian interpretation of Hebrews 12:2 is based upon grammar. In fact I've yet to see a Calvinist commentary make a grammatical argument for your interpretation. Calvinist commentaries usually either agree with the Arminian interpretation, assert your interpretation without grammatical and contextual support, or give an exegetical explanation using the grammar which is identical to the Arminian explanation and then throw in your explanation as "something that is also obviously true."

Also, as long as faith is being spoken of objectively instead of subjectively, "our" fits well with the Arminian explanation, even though it's not called for.

[seer]

They fail to see adoption and God's determination to not lose any of His own. Because, after all, just like in adoption, the children don't go looking for their new parents...rather they are found by them. When God adopts us, He does so with a design to take us all the way, not half way.

You mean the way God delt with His "people" His "children" His "sons" His "beloved" His "wife" in the OT. Most of them were lost... Sorry GB - none of it makes sense apart from LFW.

[Solly]

Funny how this goes back and forth; one minute salvation is in Christ assured in him and faith is his gift - or at least the grace that creates faith; next minute faith is what saves us and we can lose it. One minute he is tha anchor of our soul and hope, next, cos we have LFW, we can cast off anytime we choose.
I thought the whole point about the New Covenant was that we were not able to save ourselves, as Israel showed us under the Old Covenant, so God would ensure that we will be saved despite our failings. Israel were not spiritually saved, despite Seer's use of them, only a remnant was saved because God kept them.
The whole issue seems a bit more complex than the usual game of throwing proof texts at each other. One side gives the idea we can brush God aside even after all he has done, the other gives the impression that God won't go away no matter how bad we are.
If God has not made my salvation secure, and it is still based on my puny sinful attemtps to remain faithful - and you can talk about prevenient grace all you want, it all seems to be suspended on the pinnacle of the upsidedown pyramid - then where is the encouragement, where is the removing of burdens, and of the fear of failure?
Of course, it is right to accuse those who teach eternal salvation - or as I refer to it, the perseverance of the saints in holiness - if it leads towards antinomianism, with a reminder from Heb 12 about God's chastisements, and Paul's comments about building with hay, straw, and stubble. But AFAIC, the New Covenant was specifically dsigned to overcome my penchant for failure, both by his enabling grace and his forgiving grace. That some appear to apostatise is a warning that the whole thing can be fairly well mimicked, and I should work out my salvation in fear and trembling, but confident that it is God that works in me.

[Ormly]

No, I think that it is God's grace that is saving me through my faith.

...and that's the correct way to see it. Any other way will lead to all sorts of "mystery" when dealing with other scripture.

[Ormly]

Rev. 22:11-14 (NASB-U)
"Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy." "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. [13] "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.

What I read in the above is a whole lot of responsibility given to us as Christians and the judging of us will be proportional to the results in righteousness Christ finds when He judges in that day. Now if you say He is the author of 'our' faith that produces all that He requires of us doesn't it follow based on the above that, at the least, we are responsible for handling His faith in us? After all, it is His life we claim to have residing within us that He has given us. Why would we be given it if not to protect it; to cherish it? It is a marriage, is it not? If given to protect then it only follows that we can also "unprotect it" as spoken of above by the imply of "dirty robes". Doesn't that all speak of man's ability to choose? And doesn't it also speak to the fact that God sets before us life and death that we have a choice? Does it not follow that we can reject even after we accept the life of Christ given us by the indwelling? "Self" doesn't die easily and must always be in subjection to the Spirit we desire from above. How much do we love Him? Our allegiance to Him must always come out of a freewill or it's not allegiance in the slightest. See the wilderness experience of Jesus, our role model.

[smaller]

How about Judas?

Unsubstantiated by the scriptures.

You don't have to look far. Just go into the Apologetics section and ask the former Christians there who have fallen away from their faith if they were real believers." Almost all will answer in the affirmative. Are they lying to us?

If anyone does not believe they are blinded by the god of this world. Why is it most of you seek to condemn captive slaves of darkness? Jesus did not come to burn captives alive forever in fire.