Eternal security makes no sense to Rando!

[Calvinist4Him]

None whatsoever. I can appreciate the idea of God's providence being in control of everything, but the idea that once you've accepted Christ, all is said and done just doesn't seem to me to hold true to the bible. Or to my real-life experiences, for that matter. I find it very difficult to believe that all apostates from the Christian faith "weren't really saved" to begin with.

This is where "Perseverance of the Saints" comes into the mix....

If they were really saved, why are they no longer saved? This is where conditional election and unconditonal election bump heads. As for me, well, I'm saved by grace. What then shall seperate us from the love of Christ?

[Arminian]

Funny how this goes back and forth; one minute salvation is in Christ assured in him and faith is his gift - or at least the grace that creates faith; next minute faith is what saves us and we can lose it. One minute he is tha anchor of our soul and hope, next, cos we have LFW, we can cast off anytime we choose.
I thought the whole point about the New Covenant was that we were not able to save ourselves, as Israel showed us under the Old Covenant, so God would ensure that we will be saved despite our failings. Israel were not spiritually saved, despite Seer's use of them, only a remnant was saved because God kept them.
The whole issue seems a bit more complex than the usual game of throwing proof texts at each other. One side gives the idea we can brush God aside even after all he has done, the other gives the impression that God won't go away no matter how bad we are.
If God has not made my salvation secure, and it is still based on my puny sinful attemtps to remain faithful - and you can talk about prevenient grace all you want, it all seems to be suspended on the pinnacle of the upsidedown pyramid - then where is the encouragement, where is the removing of burdens, and of the fear of failure?

This is where I prefer the more classical type of Calvinism practiced by those such a GP. To such Calvinists the warnings are read just as Arminians read them, but with the idea in mind that the warnings will most certainly work. Therefore the fear of failure is in response to the outcome if a particular path is followed, and the "removing of burdens" is in reference to the original context -- that being the law.

Considering what we now know of the socio-cultural world and writings of the ancients, and how the same imagery and phrases are used by the NT authors, no "easy-believism" theology will be able to stand the scrutiny. As a fellow Baptist, I too am surrounded by such thinking. I just love it when a classical Calvinist sits at my table on Sunday morning, because I'll have at least one person to agree with.

Considering the portion of Hebrews you quoted, I'd say my Calvinist freinds would suggest you consider it in context, rather than with the backdrop of your present LFW\anti-LFW notions. Of course, the warnigs don't work on everyone, and that opens the next "can of worms."

[Ormly]

This is where "Perseverance of the Saints" comes into the mix....

If they were really saved, why are they no longer saved? This is where conditional election and unconditonal election bump heads. As for me, well, I'm saved by grace. What then shall seperate us from the love of Christ?

Why don't you consider their ability to reject or turn away. That's certainly shown in scripture that man has done numerous times, even Paul refers to it in: Hebrews 6:4-6 (NASB-U)

"For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away ......"

[Calvinist4Him]

Why don't you consider their ability to reject or turn away. That's certainly shown in scripture that man has done numerous times, even Paul refers to it in: Hebrews 6:4-6 (NASB-U)

"For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away ......"

Where in Hebrews 6:4-6 does it mention they were saved?

[Ormly]

Where in Hebrews 6:4-6 does it mention they were saved?

Where doesn't it say it?? Do you NEED to see the word 'saved' before making distinctions? Who can taste of any heavenly gift without regeneration or at least being saved? Being "once enlightened and entered into" means they came and received and then turned away. No mystery in that I can see.

[Calvinist4Him]

Where doesn't it say it?? Do you NEED to see the word 'saved' before making distinctions?

Actually, it would help.

Who can taste of any heavenly gift without regeneration or at least being saved?

I dunno.

Being "once enlightened and entered into" means they came and received and then turned away. No mystery in that I can see.

Actually, I think the phrase "partakers of the Holy Spirit" provides the strongest support.

John Gill has quite alot to say concerning those verses, though you may not agree, you may be interested in reading his commentary. For your reading pleasure...

John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

Heb 6:4 - For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,.... The Syriac and Ethiopic versions render it, "baptized"; and the word is thought to be so used in Heb_10:32. And indeed baptism was called very early "illumination" by the ancients, as by Justin Martyr (i), and Clemens Alexandrinus (k), because only enlightened persons were the proper subjects of it; and the word once here used seems to confirm this sense, since baptism, when rightly administered, was not repeated; but then this sense depends upon an use of a word, which it is not certain did as yet obtain; nor does the apostle take notice of baptism in a parallel place, Heb_10:26. This gave rise to, and seems to favour the error of Novatus, that those who fall into sin after baptism are to be cut off from the communion of the church, and never more to be restored unto it; contrary to the promises of God to returning backsliders, and contrary to facts, as well as to the directions of Christ, and his apostles, to receive and restore such persons; and such a notion tends to set aside the intercession of Christ for fallen believers, and to plunge them into despair: it is better therefore to retain the word "enlightened", in its proper sense, and to understand it of persons enlightened with Gospel knowledge; there are some who are savingly enlightened by the Spirit of God, to see the impurity of their hearts and actions, and their impotency to perform that which is good, the imperfection of their own righteousness to justify them, their lost state and condition by nature, and to see Christ and salvation by him, and their interest in it; and these being "once" enlightened, never become darkness, or ever so fall as to perish; for if God had a mind to destroy them, he would never have shown them these things, and therefore cannot be the persons designed here; unless we render the words, as the Syriac version does, "it is impossible"----Nwjxy bwtd, "that they should sin again"; so as to die spiritually, lose the grace of God, and stand in need of a new work upon them, which would be impossible to be done: but rather such are meant, who are so enlightened as to see the evil effects of sin, but not the evil that is in sin; to see the good things which come by Christ, but not the goodness that is in Christ; so as to reform externally, but not to be sanctified internally; to have knowledge of the Gospel doctrinally, but not experimentally; yea, to have such light into it, as to be able to preach it to others, and yet be destitute of the grace of God:

and have tasted of the heavenly gift; either faith, or a justifying righteousness, or the pardon of sin, or eternal life; which are all spiritual and heavenly gifts of grace, and which true believers have real tastes of; and hypocrites please themselves with, having some speculative notions about them, and some desires after them, arising from a natural principle of self-love. Some think the Holy Ghost is intended; but rather Christ himself, the unspeakable gift of God's love, given from heaven, as the bread of life. Now there are some who have a saving spiritual taste of this gift; for though God's people, while unregenerate, have no such taste; their taste is vitiated by sin, and it is not changed; sin is the food they live upon, in which they take an imaginary pleasure, and disrelish every thing else; but when regenerated, their taste is changed, sin is rendered loathsome to them; and they have a real gust of spiritual things, and especially of Christ, and find a real delight and pleasure in feeding by faith upon him; whereby they live upon him, and are nourished up unto eternal life, and therefore cannot be the persons here spoken of: but there are others who taste, but dislike what they taste; have no true love to Christ, and faith in him; or have only a carnal taste of him, know him only after the flesh, or externally, not inwardly and experimentally; or they have only a superficial taste, such as is opposed to eating the flesh, and drinking the blood of Christ, by faith, which is proper to true believers; the gust they have is but temporary, and arises from selfish principles.

And were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; not his person, nor his special grace; there are some who so partake of him, as to be united to him, in whom he becomes the principle of spiritual life, and motion: such have the fruits of the Spirit, and communion with him; they enjoy his personal presence and inhabitation in them; they have received him as a spirit of illumination and conviction, of regeneration and sanctification, as the spirit of faith, and as a comforter; and as a spirit of adoption, and the earnest and seal of future glory; but then such can never so fall away as to perish: a believer indeed may be without the sensible presence of the Spirit; the graces of the Spirit may be very low, as to their exercise; and they may not enjoy his comforts, gracious influences, and divine assistance; but the Spirit of God never is, in the above sense, in a castaway; where he takes up his dwelling, he never quits it; if such could perish, not only his own glory, but the glory of the Father, and of the Son, would be lost likewise: but by the Holy Ghost is sometimes meant the gifts of the Spirit, ordinary or extraordinary, 1Co_12:4 and so here; and men may be said to be partakers of the Holy Ghost, to whom he gives wisdom and prudence in things natural and civil; the knowledge of things divine and evangelical, in an external way; the power of working miracles, of prophesying, of speaking with tongues, and of the interpretation of tongues; for the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost seem chiefly designed, which some, in the first times of the Gospel, were partakers of, who had no share in special grace, Mat_7:22.

Heb 6:5 - And have tasted the good word of God,.... Not the Lord Jesus Christ, the essential Word of God, who seems to be intended before by the heavenly gift; but rather, either the Scriptures of truth in general, which are the word of God, endited by him, and contain his mind and will; which he makes use of for conviction, conversion, instruction, and comfort; and which are preserved by him: and these are a good word; they come from him who is good; they are a revelation of good things; they make known things true, pleasant, and profitable: or else the Gospel in particular, of which God is the author; and in which is a wonderful display of his wisdom and grace; and which he owns and blesses for his own glory, and the good of others: and this is a "good word", the same with דבר טוב, "good matter", or "word", in Psa_45:1 פתגם טובי, "my good word", or "the word of my goodness", in the Targum on Isa_55:11 for it is the word of righteousness, reconciliation, peace, pardon, life, and salvation. And there is a special and spiritual taste of this good, word, which is delightful, relishing, and nourishing; and such who have it can never totally and finally fall away; because they who taste it, so as to eat and digest it, and be nourished by it, to them it becomes the ingrafted word, which is able to save them: but there is such a taste of this word as is disrelishing, as in profane sinners, and open opposers and persecutors of the word, or as in hypocrites and formal professors; which is only an assent to the Scriptures, as the revelation of God, or a superficial knowledge of the doctrines of the Gospel without the experience of them, and a temporal faith in them, and a natural affection for them, and pleasure with them for a time; as the Jews, and Herod with John's ministry, and the stony ground hearers.

And the powers of the world to come; meaning either the state of the church, and the glorious things relating to it, after the first resurrection, which they might have some notional apprehensions of; or the ultimate state of glory and happiness, the powers of which are the immortality, incorruption, and glory of the body, the perfect holiness and knowledge of the soul, entire freedom from all evils of every kind, full communion with Father, Son, and Spirit, and a complete enjoyment of all happiness for ever; which hypocrites may have a notional knowledge of, a natural desire after, and delight in the contemplation and hope of, as Balaam had; or rather the δυναμεις, miracles and mighty works in the former part of the Gospel dispensation, or times of the Messiah, the Jews' world to come; see Gill on Heb_2:5, are intended; which many, as Judas and others, were able to perform, who were not sincere Christians, or true believers.

Heb 6:6 - If they shall fall away,.... This is not supposed of true believers, as appears from Heb_6:9 nor is it to be supposed of them that they may fall totally and finally; they may indeed fall, not only into afflictions and temptations, but into sin; and from a lively and comfortable exercise of grace, and from a degree of steadfastness in the Gospel; but not irrecoverably: for they are held and secured by a threefold cord, which can never be broken; by God the Father, who has loved them with an everlasting love, has chosen them in Christ, secured them in the covenant of grace, keeps them by his power, has given them grace, and will give them glory; and by the Son, who has undertook for them, redeemed and purchased them, prays and makes preparations in heaven for them, they are built on him, united to him, and are his jewels, whom he will preserve; and by the Holy Ghost, whose grace is incorruptible, whose personal indwelling is for ever, who himself is the earnest and seal of the heavenly inheritance, and who having begun, will finish the good work of grace: but falling away, so as to perish, may be supposed, and is true of many professors of religion; who may fall from the profession of the Gospel they have made, and from the truth of it, and into an open denial of it; yea, into an hatred and persecution of what they once received the external knowledge of; and so shall fall short of heaven, and into condemnation: for,

to renew them again unto repentance, is a thing impossible: by "repentance" is meant, not baptism of repentance; nor admission to a solemn form of public repentance in the church; nor a legal repentance, but an evangelical one: and so to be "renewed" unto it is not to be baptized again, or to be restored anew to the church by repentance, and absolution; but must be understood either of renovation of the soul, in order to repentance; or of the reforming of the outward conversation, as an evidence of it; or of a renewing of the exercise of the grace of repentance and to be renewed "again" to repentance does not suppose that persons may have true repentance and lose it; for though truly penitent persons may lose the exercise of this grace for a time, yet the grace itself can never be lost: moreover, these apostates before described had only a show of repentance, a counterfeit one; such as Cain, Pharaoh, and Judas had; and consequently, the renewing of them again to repentance, is to that which they only seemed to have, and to make pretensions unto; now to renew them to a true repentance, which they once made a profession of, the apostle says is a thing "impossible": the meaning of which is not only that it is difficult; or that it is rare and unusual; or that it is unsuitable and improper; but it is absolutely impossible: it is impossible to these men to renew themselves to repentance; renovation is the work of the Holy Ghost, and not of man; and repentance is God's gift, and not in man's power; and it is impossible for ministers to renew them, to restore and bring them back, by true repentance; yea, it is impossible to God himself, not through any impotence in him, but from the nature of the sin these men are guilty of; for by the high, though outward attainments they arrive unto, according to the description of them, their sin is the sin against the Holy Ghost, for which no sacrifice can be offered up, and of which there is no remission, and so no repentance; for these two go together, and for which prayer is not to be made; see Mat_12:32 and chiefly because to renew such persons to repentance, is repugnant to the determined will of God, who cannot go against his own purposes and resolutions; and so the Jews (l) speak of repentance being withheld by God from Pharaoh, and, from the people of Israel; of which they understand Exo_9:16 and say, that when the holy blessed God withholds repentance from a sinner, אינו יכול לשוב, "he cannot repent"; but must die in his wickedness which he first committed of his own will; and they further observe (m), that he that profanes the name of God has it not in his power to depend on repentance, nor can his iniquity be expiated on the day of atonement, or be removed by chastisement:

seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh; who is truly and properly God, begotten of the Father, and of the same nature with him, in whom he greatly delights; this is Christ's highest name and title; and it was for asserting himself to be the Son of God that he was crucified; and his being so puts an infinite virtue in his sufferings and death; and it heightens the sin of the Jews, and of these apostates, in crucifying him. He was once crucified, and it is both impossible and unnecessary that he should be, properly speaking, "crucified afresh", or "again"; it is impossible, because he is risen from the dead, and will never die more; it is unnecessary, because he has finished and completed what he suffered the death of the cross for; but men may be said to crucify him again, when, by denying him to be the Son of God, they justify the crucifixion of him on that account; and when they lessen and vilify the virtue of his blood and sacrifice; and when both by errors and immoralities they cause him to be blasphemed, and evil spoken of; and when they persecute him in his members: and this may be said to be done "to themselves afresh"; not that Christ was crucified for them before, but that they now crucify him again, as much as in them lies; or "with themselves", in their own breasts and minds, and to their own destruction. Now this being the case, it makes their renewal to repentance impossible; because, as before observed, the sin they commit is unpardonable; it is a denial of Christ, who gives repentance; and such who sin it must arrive to such hardness of heart as to admit of no repentance; and it is just with God to give up such to a final impenitence, as those, who knowingly and out of malice and envy crucified Christ, had neither pardon nor repentance; and besides, this sin of denying Christ to be the Son of God, and Saviour of men, after so much light and knowledge, precludes the way of salvation, unless Christ was to be crucified again, which is impossible; for so the Syriac version connects this clause with the word "impossible", as well as a foregoing one, rendering it, "it is impossible to crucify the Son of God again, and to put him to shame"; and so the Arabic version. Christ was put to open shame at the time of his apprehension, prosecution, and crucifixion; and so he is by such apostates, who, was he on earth, would treat him in the same manner the Jews did; and who do traduce him as an impostor and a deceiver, and give the lie to his doctrines, and expose him by their lives, and persecute him in his saints.

© source where applicable

Reading further Hebrews 6:9 "But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak."

[Ormly]

John Gill is much too convoluted in his thinking that what he states can be of any value in this.

May I suggest this instead: Matthew 5:13 (NASB-U)
"You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.

[lee_merrill]

May I suggest this instead: Matthew 5:13 (NASB-U)
"You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.

There are some questions here, though! How can salt become unsalty? Maybe this indicates that the interpretation might be more than what our first thoughts would suggest. Next, "not good for anything" implies loss of benefit to others, but not necessarily loss of salvation.

Blessings,
Lee

[Ormly]

There are some questions here, though! How can salt become unsalty? Maybe this indicates that the interpretation might be more than what our first thoughts would suggest. Next, "not good for anything" implies loss of benefit to others, but not necessarily loss of salvation.

Blessings,
Lee

I thought the issue was how to make it salty again not how it becomes unsalty? So please stick to the issue that Jesus speaks of, ok? If you will then the passage in question in Hebrews will make more sense to you. Of course the end result will be that you will have to throw out Calvin's approach to the "P" in tulip in order to grasp what is spoken by the writer of Hebrews.

[GoBahnsen]

Would you then argue that all apostates never had the Holy Spirit? Not even at their most faithful to God?

Yes I would. I base that on God's omniscience. God isn't a man that He should be fooled has the OVT's would believe. If God authors genuine faith, then He doesn't author faith to not finish it. He doesn't adopt children to abandon them later when they are being rebellious. Rather He chastens His own and they do get the message. Though it may result in a rather sore hinny.

So again, God isn't going to regenerate a vessel created for wrath. He isn't going to save a man whom He knows is going to hell. In Matt. 7 Jesus says to certain ones "I NEVER knew you". He doesn't say, I knew you for awhile and we had a relationship going, but then you blew chowder and I stopped knowing you. No, He never knew them. They had a false faith. They trusted in their own abilities. They pointed to things they had done that should commend them to God.

Yes- I'm not disputing that. But we are saved by grace- through faith. If we end that faithful relationship, there's no means by which grace can work.

This is the weakness of your Arminianism my friend. ( And I do consider you a friend.) You are holding God's hand, in your view, and should you let go He cannot save you. We Calvinists are stuck on John 10 and we love both of those infinite hands of strength wrapped around us. We know that if God left it up to us to make sure we held on, we would never make it to glory.

So what of the passages that warn believers to persevere? They are there for our good. True elect believers heed the warnings. Yet not perfectly, sometimes wandering away from the fold. To which our Shepherd comes after us and with His rod we are guided back into the fold, so that He loses nothing of that which the Father has given Him.

What do you make of those verses were Jesus says He loses nothing of that which the Father gives to Him? You who say that people can believe (be born again) in a genuine sense then leave the fold, you make Jesus a liar, do you not?

[Berean Todd]

Yes I would. I base that on God's omniscience. God isn't a man that He should be fooled has the OVT's would believe. If God authors genuine faith, then He doesn't author faith to not finish it. He doesn't adopt children to abandon them later when they are being rebellious. Rather He chastens His own and they do get the message. Though it may result in a rather sore hinny.

So again, God isn't going to regenerate a vessel created for wrath. He isn't going to save a man whom He knows is going to hell. In Matt. 7 Jesus says to certain ones "I NEVER knew you". He doesn't say, I knew you for awhile and we had a relationship going, but then you blew chowder and I stopped knowing you. No, He never knew them. They had a false faith. They trusted in their own abilities. They pointed to things they had done that should commend them to God.

This is the weakness of your Arminianism my friend. ( And I do consider you a friend.) You are holding God's hand, in your view, and should you let go He cannot save you. We Calvinists are stuck on John 10 and we love both of those infinite hands of strength wrapped around us. We know that if God left it up to us to make sure we held on, we would never make it to glory.

So what of the passages that warn believers to persevere? They are there for our good. True elect believers heed the warnings. Yet not perfectly, sometimes wandering away from the fold. To which our Shepherd comes after us and with His rod we are guided back into the fold, so that He loses nothing of that which the Father has given Him.

What do you make of those verses were Jesus says He loses nothing of that which the Father gives to Him? You who say that people can believe (be born again) in a genuine sense then leave the fold, you make Jesus a liar, do you not?

GoB, it's been truly a blessing to read some of your recent posts, and this one was a gem. Great argumentation

[GoBahnsen]

GoB, it's been truly a blessing to read some of your recent posts, and this one was a gem. Great argumentation

How kind of you to say so. I will also say that when I see your name pop up on a thread, I know I'm going to find something decent and coherent to read. I have high hopes for you Todd.

So keep up the good posting and don't let certain ones get too far under your skin .

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

I thought the issue was how to make it salty again not how it becomes unsalty? So please stick to the issue that Jesus speaks of, ok?

Well, that was a minor point, just to show that we may have some work here to understand this statement.

But what about the main point of the reply? "No good use" doesn't imply no salvation...

Here is a similar verse:

Luke 14:34-35 Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile; it is thrown out. "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

Again, we have a similar difficulty, why is salt good for soil? It's not, actually, if the point is for agriculture (Jer. 48:9). Or the manure pile? I do not understand that, either. And what is the context?

Luke 14:33 In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.

I don't think a person can be a child of God, and not be a disciple, yet how many real believers do you know who have some attachment to their stuff? I might have a problem, too, and I'm not sure I've come to the point where I've really given up everything.

So again, I think this may not indicate issues of salvation...

Blessings,
Lee

[GoBahnsen]

Hi everyone,

Well, that was a minor point, just to show that we may have some work here to understand this statement.

But what about the main point of the reply? "No good use" doesn't imply no salvation...

Here is a similar verse:

Luke 14:34-35 Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile; it is thrown out. "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

Again, we have a similar difficulty, why is salt good for soil? It's not, actually, if the point is for agriculture (Jer. 48:9). Or the manure pile? I do not understand that, either. And what is the context?

Luke 14:33 In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.

I don't think a person can be a child of God, and not be a disciple, yet how many real believers do you know who have some attachment to their stuff? I might have a problem, too, and I'm not sure I've come to the point where I've really given up everything.

So again, I think this may not indicate issues of salvation...

Blessings,
Lee

I wanted to go off on this one paragraph lee in which you said :
"I don't think a person can be a child of God, and not be a disciple, yet how many real believers do you know who have some attachment to their stuff? I might have a problem, too, and I'm not sure I've come to the point where I've really given up everything."

I appreciate your candidness. I want to confess that for years I ran from the Lord because I could not see pony-ing up to His demands. I thought to myself "man Lord...you are so radical...if I really follow you in the way I think you are saying...people will think I've gone off the deep end. In fact it is such a deep end, I can't bring myself to dive in." So I ran and I ran and I ran. I was on a good run. But then I got tired. I got very tired. Then I saw that there was no where to run anymore. Isn't God's grace marvelous to His people?

So I did the only sane thing a child of God can do. I threw my hands in the air. I said "I've got a lot of baggage here Lord, and I like it very much, but You have at it, because I can't free myself. I'd like to, but I can't or i won't or whatever it is, I'm stuck."

I remember the joy of that day not too long ago, about March of 2003. It may come as a surprise to some, but the first thing I did as I realized the Christian life was more than I could handle and that Jesus and I had made friends again (though He was always there). The strange thing we did, that might raise many a condemning evangelical brow, is we had a beer. We just had a beer together and talked. It was all I could do.

I sensed no condemnation from Him. For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. We've had quite a few beers since and we walk in unbroken fellowship, knowing that He was pierced for my sin and bruised for my iniquity.

[Jawa Man]

My position's flavor seems to a meal prepared using the ingredients from most of your positions.

Ephesians 2:10, ESV

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

This verse says that we were made to do good because of God. This leads me to think that God is the source of all good that we do - if he is the reason we are programmed to take up good works, then all works we do are because of Him, whether we serve Him or not. This would be grace. This is why I believe that grace is the source of all good things, including spiritual growth, even the atheist helping an old lady across the street, all actions in response to the grace of the God the individual allows himself to yield to. That's why grace cannot help us grow spiritually when we decide to not accept it.

Now I think that salvation is only possible by grace, but requires us to keep it going. That is, if we choose to no longer accept grace and let God transform us, we will be cut off for not bearing fruit, because grace is what makes us bear fruit. This parable helps get this across, in my opinion:

Matthew 25:14-30, ESV

"For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property. To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, 'Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.' His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.' And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, 'Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.' His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.' He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.' But his master answered him, 'You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sowed and gather where I scattered no seed? Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

I believe salvation is a process, which is conceived when we first believe (which is God's grace given to those willing to have faith). Just as the men who received the money, we all receive some grace from God in response to our submitting, which is what starts our spiritual journey (faith). Then at judgment, He will see what we have done with that initial grace. The first two men found ways to increase the money they received - this is like letting grace transform us and then receiving more grace as we continue being sanctified, which allows us to do more good works. We must take up our cross and follow Jesus to allow this. But the third man did not allow grace to change him, but instead only remained at his first state - just belief maybe, or just belief that had one work behind it. He did not yield to God and allow him to transform him more, but became like the fruitless vine that is cut off. So when Jesus came back and saw that he didn't do anything with his money (or grace), he cast him into outer darkness, being Hell, while the others were glorified for being true servants of God.

Also, here's what Paul says about it.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27, ESV

Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

Paul even says that we must race to achieve this prize, which is an imperishable wreath, or our Resurrection and salvation. Racing would be allowing grace to change us, and responding to grace by becoming disciples, taking up our crosses and following Jesus.

So yes, I do believe we are saved by grace through faith, as Paul said. But grace is not something that happens at points in time, but is an everlasting process that even the unsaved go through. Once we have faith, which is given to us by grace and is the first step of discipleship, we gain momentum, continuing to receive more grace and finally achieve sanctity. Once grace stops, so does salvation.

Whew.