For Berean Todd; your perspective in opposition to 'unbiblical' charismatic practices

[markporter]

I thought I'd start a new thread for this so as not to get the other one too far off topic.

I'm interested to know what particular differences you would highlight between your viewpoint and that of charismatic believers such as myself, I guess tongues is going to come up, you didn't define your exact understanding on that, but what else?

[Berean Todd]

I thought I'd start a new thread for this so as not to get the other one too far off topic.

I'm interested to know what particular differences you would highlight between your viewpoint and that of charismatic believers such as myself, I guess tongues is going to come up, you didn't define your exact understanding on that, but what else?

Well, I would have many differences with a good number of charismatics, but that does not mean I divide myself from them; one of my best friends is a charismatic woship leader - he calls himself a "Bapticostal" because he is a conservative charismatic.

What are some of my differences with charismatics? Well, let me address some:

1. For one, my experience is that most charismatics are dispensational in their beliefs. While I had been one, I have left that camp.

2. Tongues - I think as practiced what is spoken in most churches is gibberish, and I do not think that is what Biblical tongues is.

3. Tongues require and interpretation, and I have never been to a charismatic church yet where one was given.

4. We are commanded for only one or two to speak in tongues, yet many churches half the church is rolling around.

5. It is said that it is better not to speak tongues in church, and that 5 words of prophecy are better than 1000 words in a tongue. Yet tongues in church prevail in many churches.

6. While I believe in spiritual healings, I do not believe in spiritual healers.

7. I have not been to a charismatic seminary so I don't know the specifics, but based on vastly different interpretations and applications, I expect there is a different hermaneutic applied by them.

8. (meant to be somewhat silly, but at its core something I believe) I believe that TBN is a demonically inspired channell dominated by false teachers, and greedy thieves.

There is a good start to differences that I have with charismatic practice, or at least that of the majority of the charismatic movement today.

[markporter]

ok, that's interesting, it doesn't look a huge amount different from the charismatic beliefs that I know, except the tongues stuff.

1. I'm not sure that my local churches would argue with you there
2. If you're implying that tongues must be human languages then of course there's a difference here, but if you're implying that lots of people fake the gift then there's probably not one.
3. I've never heard an interpretation, but I have friends that have, I guess at my church it's never spoken out as a clear thing to everyone that would allow for an interpretation, although it happens ocassionally. I don't think the requirement for interpretation is always there, it depends upon the way the tongues is presented in the first place.
4. Hmm, I think I might dispute this one, I think that the context is very important and that in some settings everyone praying in tongues could be alright
5. It's true I guess, we don't see enough of the other spiritual gifts
6. Sure, but would you agree that there are those with particular gifts of healing?
7. hmm, maybe
8. Heh, no particular argument

[Berean Todd]

At the bottom I am posting a copy of a chapter of Scripture posted on the other thread in comparitive religions, notes regarding it will be made in response to your thoughts.

3. I've never heard an interpretation, but I have friends that have, I guess at my church it's never spoken out as a clear thing to everyone that would allow for an interpretation, although it happens ocassionally. I don't think the requirement for interpretation is always there, it depends upon the way the tongues is presented in the first place.

See specifically verses 27-28 which give exact guidelines, but several others as well, including 2, 5 and 9.

4. Hmm, I think I might dispute this one, I think that the context is very important and that in some settings everyone praying in tongues could be alright

Again, see specifically verses 27-28 - no more than 2 or 3 are allowed and there must be an interpretation, and per verse 3 it should be orderly.

5. It's true I guess, we don't see enough of the other spiritual gifts

You seem to agree, but since not strongly let me point you specifically to one of my favorite verses in the chapter, verse 19

6. Sure, but would you agree that there are those with particular gifts of healing?

I'm not sure. Perhaps, though I have never seen or heard of one who was true. Benny Hinn, for example, is a demonic false teacher, and a proven liar.
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1 Cor 14
1Let love be your highest goal, but also desire the special abilities the Spirit gives, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For if your gift is the ability to speak in tongues, you will be talking to God but not to people, since they won't be able to understand you. You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit, but it will all be mysterious. 3But one who prophesies is helping others grow in the Lord, encouraging and comforting them. 4A person who speaks in tongues is strengthened personally in the Lord, but one who speaks a word of prophecy strengthens the entire church.
5I wish you all had the gift of speaking in tongues, but even more I wish you were all able to prophesy. For prophecy is a greater and more useful gift than speaking in tongues, unless someone interprets what you are saying so that the whole church can get some good out of it.
6Dear brothers and sisters, if I should come to you talking in an unknown language, how would that help you? But if I bring you some revelation or some special knowledge or some prophecy or some teaching--that is what will help you. 7Even musical instruments like the flute or the harp, though they are lifeless, are examples of the need for speaking in plain language. For no one will recognize the melody unless the notes are played clearly. 8And if the bugler doesn't sound a clear call, how will the soldiers know they are being called to battle? 9And it's the same for you. If you talk to people in a language they don't understand, how will they know what you mean? You might as well be talking to an empty room.
10There are so many different languages in the world, and all are excellent for those who understand them, 11but to me they mean nothing. I will not understand people who speak those languages, and they will not understand me. 12Since you are so eager to have spiritual gifts, ask God for those that will be of real help to the whole church.
13So anyone who has the gift of speaking in tongues should pray also for the gift of interpretation in order to tell people plainly what has been said. 14For if I pray in tongues, my spirit is praying, but I don't understand what I am saying.
15Well then, what shall I do? I will do both. I will pray in the spirit, and I will pray in words I understand. I will sing in the spirit, and I will sing in words I understand. 16For if you praise God only in the spirit, how can those who don't understand you praise God along with you? How can they join you in giving thanks when they don't understand what you are saying? 17You will be giving thanks very nicely, no doubt, but it doesn't help the other people present.
18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in a church meeting I would much rather speak five understandable words that will help others than ten thousand words in an unknown language.
20Dear brothers and sisters, don't be childish in your understanding of these things. Be innocent as babies when it comes to evil, but be mature and wise in understanding matters of this kind. 21It is written in the Scriptures,

"I will speak to my own people
through unknown languages
and through the lips of foreigners.
But even then, they will not listen to me,"
says the Lord.
22So you see that speaking in tongues is a sign, not for believers, but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for the benefit of believers, not unbelievers. 23Even so, if unbelievers or people who don't understand these things come into your meeting and hear everyone talking in an unknown language, they will think you are crazy. 24But if all of you are prophesying, and unbelievers or people who don't understand these things come into your meeting, they will be convicted of sin, and they will be condemned by what you say. 25As they listen, their secret thoughts will be laid bare, and they will fall down on their knees and worship God, declaring, "God is really here among you."
26Well, my brothers and sisters, let's summarize what I am saying. When you meet, one will sing, another will teach, another will tell some special revelation God has given, one will speak in an unknown language, while another will interpret what is said. But everything that is done must be useful to all and build them up in the Lord. 27No more than two or three should speak in an unknown language. They must speak one at a time, and someone must be ready to interpret what they are saying. 28But if no one is present who can interpret, they must be silent in your church meeting and speak in tongues to God privately.
29Let two or three prophesy, and let the others evaluate what is said. 30But if someone is prophesying and another person receives a revelation from the Lord, the one who is speaking must stop. 31In this way, all who prophesy will have a turn to speak, one after the other, so that everyone will learn and be encouraged. 32Remember that people who prophesy are in control of their spirit and can wait their turn. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace, as in all the other churches

[markporter]

I think from my readings of these passages a while back I would take the points to be that tongues is an essentially private thing, but that if it's used in public that there should be an interpretation and not to put too much emphasis on it in that context. Now I think there are moments in church where this might be appropriate such as if there is a time of prayer led from the front but in which everyone is also praying aloud on their own - where there is a part specifically set aside for one to one you to God stuff. I think what Paul says is highly contextual and addresses a particular situation.