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Presuppositional apologetics

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  • #16
    All arguments have presupposed truth or truths. It is when these presupposed truth or truths are different, including logic to be used, different conclusions are drawn.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • #17
      No problem with the mistakes 37818, I'd be a hypocrite if I expected perfection of people.

      All arguments have presupposed truth or truths. It is when these presupposed truth or truths are different, including logic to be used, different conclusions are drawn.
      You and I still disagree about the existence of presuppositions that's can be demonstrated, I know this is your position, there's no reason to repeat it.

      And people can reach different different positions simple on the basis of one person having more information than the others. Very, very few beliefs, even granting a foundationalistic, or presuppositionalistic (even the Van Tillian-Calvinistic-Reformed-Theology-Is-A-Presupposition kind of presuppositional) view of the world, are presuppositional (or foundational if you prefer the term).

      Most of our beliefs consists of mundane observations. And since two people can have a different exposure to the facts, they can both reach different conclusions for entirely the right reasons.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
        No problem with the mistakes 37818, I'd be a hypocrite if I expected perfection of people.



        You and I still disagree about the existence of presuppositions that's can be demonstrated, I know this is your position, there's no reason to repeat it.

        And people can reach different different positions simple on the basis of one person having more information than the others. Very, very few beliefs, even granting a foundationalistic, or presuppositionalistic (even the Van Tillian-Calvinistic-Reformed-Theology-Is-A-Presupposition kind of presuppositional) view of the world, are presuppositional (or foundational if you prefer the term).

        Most of our beliefs consists of mundane observations. And since two people can have a different exposure to the facts, they can both reach different conclusions for entirely the right reasons.
        How would you define a presupposition?
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
          How would you define a presupposition?
          I would define a presupposition as an implicit assumption needed in order to be able to argue for anything, but which in turn cannot itself be justified by reference to anything else. Its a belief that is true, and without which reasoning becomes impossible.

          A premise is the fundemental unit of any deductive piece of logic, its a statement that's taken to be true and from which other truthes are deduced. A premise can either be a presupposition, derived from a presupposition, or can be based on other things such as natural observations or divine inspiration.

          So while all presuppositions are premises, not all premises are presuppositions.

          That I'm sitting in a bed, is a belief I have, its based on my current experience. Since I know (again from experience) that beds are soft, and that I'm comfy, and that sitting in soft things often gives a comfy feeling, I can deduce that the bed is a cause of that sensation. However since you can't claim to know that I'm sitting in a bed, and its not required for you to be able to reason, this chain of logic is not foundational, or presuppositional.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
            I would define a presupposition as an implicit assumption needed in order to be able to argue for anything, but which in turn cannot itself be justified by reference to anything else. Its a belief that is true, and without which reasoning becomes impossible.

            A premise is the fundemental unit of any deductive piece of logic, its a statement that's taken to be true and from which other truthes are deduced. A premise can either be a presupposition, derived from a presupposition, or can be based on other things such as natural observations or divine inspiration.

            So while all presuppositions are premises, not all premises are presuppositions.

            That I'm sitting in a bed, is a belief I have, its based on my current experience. Since I know (again from experience) that beds are soft, and that I'm comfy, and that sitting in soft things often gives a comfy feeling, I can deduce that the bed is a cause of that sensation. However since you can't claim to know that I'm sitting in a bed, and its not required for you to be able to reason, this chain of logic is not foundational, or presuppositional.
            So neither is logic.
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              So neither is logic.
              I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

              Comment


              • #22
                Did you mean that logic itself is not a presupposition? That's a fairly vague statement, the application of logic is not a presupposition. Do you mean the axioms of something like formal logic? The law of negation, and the law of excluded middle?

                Earlier in this conversation I already pointed out to you where those come from.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                  Did you mean that logic itself is not a presupposition? That's a fairly vague statement, the application of logic is not a presupposition. Do you mean the axioms of something like formal logic? The law of negation, and the law of excluded middle?

                  Earlier in this conversation I already pointed out to you where those come from.
                  I hold that logic, the use of logic makes logic presuppositional.

                  You argued that all premises are not necessarily presuppositions, did you not? From my point of view you just made premise/presupposition, that all premises are not necessarily presuppositions.

                  From my point of view all premises are presuppositions. They cannot not be.
                  Last edited by 37818; 11-11-2014, 02:01 PM.
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                    I hold that logic, the use of logic makes logic is presuppositional.
                    I'm sorry but I really can't make sense of this sentence.

                    You argued that all premises are not necessarily presuppositions, did you not? From my point of view you just made premise/presupposition, that all premises are not necessarily presuppositions.
                    How do you figure that? I explained my view, and then I gave some sketchy arguments for them. Those arguments are themselves not presuppositions, or if you take even arguments to be presuppositions, then you've stretched the word far beyond any kind of presuppositionalist philosophy I've ever heard about. I have a feeling you're slightly confused about the term.

                    From my point of view all premises are presuppositions. They cannot not be.
                    Why?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                      I hold that logic, the use of logic makes logic is presuppositional.
                      I'm sorry but I really can't make sense of this sentence.
                      The sentence was a conflation of two thoughts. What was intended to be said was:
                      I hold that logic, the use of logic makes logic presuppositional.
                      Logic, its mere use involves the presupposition of the logic to be valid.



                      How do you figure that? I explained my view, and then I gave some sketchy arguments for them. Those arguments are themselves not presuppositions, or if you take even arguments to be presuppositions, then you've stretched the word far beyond any kind of presuppositionalist philosophy I've ever heard about. I have a feeling you're slightly confused about the term.
                      What do you call a truth that is assumed to be true without first providing its proof?
                      What do you call the method of arguing which does this?


                      Why?
                      If presupposed truths are not presuppositions, then what are they?
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        Logic, its mere use involves the presupposition of the logic to be valid.
                        Why is it a presupposition? I've already given some arguments to demonstrate how we can know the laws of logic from observation of the universal difference of being and non-being. All of formal logic can be derived just from this distinction. And since its an observation, and nothing is required even in terms of reliability of senses, then there's no presupposition here.

                        What do you call a truth that is assumed to be true without first providing its proof?
                        An assumption.

                        What do you call the method of arguing which does this?
                        Standing-up-and-spouting-assumptionsionism?

                        If presupposed truths are not presuppositions, then what are they?
                        Now you're shifting the goalpost. Prior to this you stated that all premises were presuppositions. That's not the same thing as asking whether presupposed truthes are presuppositions. And even then, you can presuppose a truth without it being a presupposition, we do that all the time in hypotheticals and in any hypothesis.

                        Only a very small subset of premises could be presuppositions.

                        Here is a premise: There is a pencil on the table in front of me. This statement happens to be true (at the very least I'm very sure that it is). And you can derive other truthes from it, at the very least the trivial truth that the following sentence is false: "There isn't a pencil on the table in front of me." However the knowledge of this premise is based upon other things, such as my experience of there being a pencil on the table, which is based on me knowing what a pencil looks like and what a pencil is, which has an explanation in all the encountes I've had with pencils in my life.

                        However I don't use that premise in any other place. Unlike, for instance, the validity of logic, I don't need to invoke the premise-of-the-pencil in order to explain those things.

                        That is unlike the presuppositions (if they exists), which can't themselves be discovered to be true by natural means, can't be based on other truthes we already know, and can't be dispensed with without making the world unintelligible.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Leonhard,
                          Can you accept the concept some have accepted truths prior to accepting or rejecting another's ideas or arguments?
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            Can you accept the concept some have accepted truths prior to accepting or rejecting another's ideas or arguments?
                            Yes, that's obviously true and undisputed here.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              Can you accept the concept some have accepted truths prior to accepting or rejecting another's ideas or arguments?
                              Yes, that's obviously true and undisputed here.
                              Would you agree or disagree that those making the arguments promoting a view do the same thing behind making the arguments promoting a view?
                              Last edited by 37818; 11-29-2014, 07:42 PM.
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                                Would you agree or disagree that those making the arguments promoting a view do the same thing behind making the arguments promoting a view?
                                I'm really sorry 37818, but again this sentence structure is hard to decode. But if you're asking whether premises go into arguments and worldviews, then yes, this is also obviously true.

                                If you mean whether the very act of making arguments require premises, then yes, for instance the laws of logic.

                                It would be very weird to make the claim that you have a worldview without premises, that is, without actually claiming anything. I have definitely not defended that here. I've only defended that only a very small number of premises could possible be counted as presuppositional, and tried to explain to you that not all premises are presuppositional.

                                If you're making the mistake of thinking that presuppositional apologetics is about examining the premises of a worldview, and attacking those. Then I'm sorry, but you're not doing presuppositional apologetics as such. That's very much in line with classical evidentialistic apologetics.
                                Last edited by Leonhard; 11-30-2014, 02:23 AM.

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