It's Confirmed, Men Are Pigs!

[fm93]

I do have to ask though, what end are you trying to achieve with being friendly via a hello though? Especially in light that for some folk, even those mild hellos are intrusive (Be it for personality reasons, or in my case, cultural reasons), subjective intentions being utterly irrelevant (Because, hello, we can't read minds).

Ordinarily when I see people say a friendly "hello" to others on the street, it's accompanied by just a quick, small smile and nod just before walking by. Not really anything serious. But it seems that there is a clear distinction between what I'm used to seeing in everyday life and what I see in this video. For one thing, I notice that quite a few people turn and stare at her after walking by, which I've never seen anyone do when merely saying hello. That makes me suspect that some of those men aren't simply giving a greeting in the sense that the other members are talking about--more likely, it's at least partly related by a desire to ogle her.

[One Bad Pig]

Ordinarily when I see people say a friendly "hello" to others on the street, it's accompanied by just a quick, small smile and nod just before walking by. Not really anything serious. But it seems that there is a clear distinction between what I'm used to seeing in everyday life and what I see in this video. For one thing, I notice that quite a few people turn and stare at her after walking by, which I've never seen anyone do when merely saying hello. That makes me suspect that some of those men aren't simply giving a greeting in the sense that the other members are talking about--more likely, it's at least partly related by a desire to ogle her.

I would be tempted to turn and stare too, if a friendly "Hi" were studiously ignored. And I would be thinking, "what's wrong with her?" not "wow, she's hot!"

[fm93]

I would be tempted to turn and stare too, if a friendly "Hi" were studiously ignored. And I would be thinking, "what's wrong with her?" not "wow, she's hot!"

In the instances in which my greetings have gone ignored, I've simply continued walking and shrugged with a slightly taken-aback expression. I've never turned back around and stared. But to each his own, I guess.

[Darth Executor]

Also the context. It's just plain rude to take up a stranger's time when they're walking down the street. They obviously have somewhere to go. Even if these men were trying to have a conversation (they are not) it's still socially unacceptable.

I agree, non-white men should not try to start conversations with white women, that would be uppity.

[One Bad Pig]

In the instances in which my greetings have gone ignored, I've simply continued walking and shrugged with a slightly taken-aback expression. I've never turned back around and stared. But to each his own, I guess.

Yeah, I'd probably keep walking too, as I'm rather an introvert. I'd be tempted, though.

[Bill the Cat]

My sample size is NYC. I work there.

So you found THESE PARTICULAR GUYS? Or are you making a sweeping generalization based on unrelated data?

I work in NYC, and I am using my brain.

No. You are ASSuming.

To them.

And to me.

A greeting is not a conversation, but even the type of greeting common in other areas doesn't apply.

Yes it does. Just because she thinks they are after more does not mean they are.

[Bill the Cat]

When I say "hi" to someone I just want to be friendly. I don't expect them to stop and talk to me, but I do expect them to say "hi" back or at least nod at me and smile. I am an equal opportunity greeter, I say it to men or women.

Exactly. My mama taught me to be polite as often as I can, as did my drill instructor.

[Jedidiah]

The producers of the video claim that the woman experienced 100+ incidents in her ten hour walk — that'd average out to 10+ incidents per hour. Naturally, the video has been edited: who would watch a ten-hour long video?

Documentation of street harassment is widely available. I don't think it's meritorious questioning whether it's a frequent problem in NYC or elsewhere.

I don't have an oar in these waters, but I have a question. If there were so many cat calling events in this 10 hour video, why were so many simple greetings included? I ask this regardless of whether they were rude or not. Seems a bit thin to me.

[Darth Executor]

[Bill the Cat]

[MaxVel]

So basically New Yorkers are equal-opportunity harassers...?

[rogue06]

I don't have an oar in these waters, but I have a question. If there were so many cat calling events in this 10 hour video, why were so many simple greetings included? I ask this regardless of whether they were rude or not. Seems a bit thin to me.

Simple greetings can be viewed as unwanted advances if someone is determined to see them as such.

[myth]

I hope everyone else is as amused as I am about how the conversation on this has played out so far.

PM: I disagree with most of what you said. I understand that the context of a comment can mean more than the comment itself, but that doesn't make a simple "hello" harassment. It may well mean the woman regards it as such...but that's just a sad fact of the degraded environment the woman lives in. It doesn't actually make saying 'hello' harassment. And the motive behind the comment isn't the only important factor either. If I approach a woman whom I find attractive and try to strike up a conversation (because I want to ask for her number), it's not catcalling or harassment unless my the content or tone of my words are disrespectful (or perhaps if I continue trying to talk to her if she's clearly not interested in talking to me). But simply saying, "hello" while also finding the person sexually attractive does not automatically equate to harassment.

Sam: I had similar words for you, but after your later comments I'll leave that alone. I will point out, though, that your earliest comments in this thread were not very articulate, and the words that you actually wrote (which were apparently divorced from what you meant) caused several of us to believe you meant something different. Perhaps more careful phrasing will avoid a similar problem in the future.

[Sam]

I hope everyone else is as amused as I am about how the conversation on this has played out so far.

PM: I disagree with most of what you said. I understand that the context of a comment can mean more than the comment itself, but that doesn't make a simple "hello" harassment. It may well mean the woman regards it as such...but that's just a sad fact of the degraded environment the woman lives in. It doesn't actually make saying 'hello' harassment. And the motive behind the comment isn't the only important factor either. If I approach a woman whom I find attractive and try to strike up a conversation (because I want to ask for her number), it's not catcalling or harassment unless my the content or tone of my words are disrespectful (or perhaps if I continue trying to talk to her if she's clearly not interested in talking to me). But simply saying, "hello" while also finding the person sexually attractive does not automatically equate to harassment.

Sam: I had similar words for you, but after your later comments I'll leave that alone. I will point out, though, that your earliest comments in this thread were not very articulate, and the words that you actually wrote (which were apparently divorced from what you meant) caused several of us to believe you meant something different. Perhaps more careful phrasing will avoid a similar problem in the future.

Myth: I think I was fairly clear early on exactly what scope I was arguing. There wasn't anything in my clarification, I believe, that I hadn't written previously. I think it's a problem of being too articulate, in that I usually pick my qualifiers for very specific purposes and those qualifiers often seem to get glossed over when people read from a disagreeing perspective. The best I can do is clarify when asked for clarification.

I'll state again that my main point is getting people beyond the question of whether a particular greeting meets the criteria for harassment and understanding that the environment or culture of harassment that women face on a routine basis serves to blur whatever distinction you can make from an objective outsider's perspective. I'm still seeing people complain about women who don't respond to greetings or act "coldly" toward a sincere "compliment." I've lost the tab now but one woman commenting on the video shared that she doesn't feel secure returning even casual greetings from male strangers because she doesn't know whether that will be taken as an invitation for the man to compliment her breasts.

Harassment is a pervasive problem for women and that creates a cultural dynamic that can't be ignored, even by the people making genuine greetings. For "compliments," I'd argue that it's a bit impolite, at least, to start a conversation with a stranger by remarking on physical appearance, even in the form of a compliment.

[myth]

Sam, I meant articulation in the sense of describing the totality of your perspective. Later on (as now) when your comments were more expansive I had a better understanding of your thinking. But here's why I was a little confused. PM stated that saying hello is harassment when he strung these sentences together:

I do know and she knows. They say hello to her because she's attractive. They are not striking up a conversation. They are cat calling. Cat calling is harassment.

Then you responded (on the same page) by stating that neither you nor PM had said any such thing:

No, dude. I haven't said anything like that. I have said that people who are taking offense at this video because they think women should react differently to someone saying hello and someone explicitly objectifying or harassing them need to understand that the environment of harassment makes any unsolicited greeting from a stranger suspect. So the argument, heard by some here and elsewhere, that women need to just understand the difference between a catcall and a sincere greeting misses the point of public places as a hostile environment for women.

I haven't seen Psychic Missile arguing that simple hellos constitute harassment, either.

And I believe that's what might be getting missed by the folks making the argument that a lot of this is just polite hellos. Given that the problem of catcalling and "street harassment" is so common, a woman cannot necessarily take even a polite hello at face value — just like that man who followed this woman for five minutes illustrates, there's always a real risk that a "polite hello" is just as much a solicitation as an explicit catcall. And when women are faced with a culture of catcalling, it forces a change in public behavior. Even in places where friendly hellos are common in public (I haven't noticed too much difference between the South and Northern Midwest in this aspect), the prevalence of harassment in public places makes such pleasantries a real threat to women.

I have noticed a difference between North and South, and that's why I made my first comment in the thread. But I am interested in your perspective, which I hadn't given much thought, about why women would appear so aloof in public places. Even so, that doesn't have much bearing on the motive behind simply saying hello, which is what I think some of us from the South are arguing. I do agree that if women live in an environment that they have to act like this (routinely) in public then we do have more work to do as a society.

No, that's why I put the "virtually" qualifier in there; and I think it was the appropriate qualifier. If you categorize all of the greetings and solicitations in that video, the innocuous greetings will be vastly overwhelmed by the inappropriate greetings/solicitations — especially when we note that at least one of the innocuous greetings was immediately followed by the most explicit act of physical intimidation in the entire clip.




What I said is that women can't take even innocuous greetings at face value (again, artfully demonstrated by the man who followed the woman in that video for five minutes). It doesn't follow that women should treat polite greetings as a form of harassment; what it does mean is that women often can't take a polite greeting at face value and therefore must develop a defensive policy that deals with the problem of harassment and false sincerity. It might be a polite greeting or it might be a clever way to initiate harassment. In the environment of harassment that many women face from an early age, it is important to recognize that implicit threat. So when you find a lot of guys saying that a lot of women are just "cold" or "snooty" or a "<insert derogatory obscenity here>" for not smiling in public when complimented or responding to a polite hello, it is imperative to drive home the point: if there was a daily threat that public greetings or invitations to talk might easily lead to the same kind of harassment that has been a routine or even constant aspect of public life, it's entirely rational to develop a "don't respond, don't smile, don't look" public persona.




I can see why you thought that so I hope I've clarified my position more explicitly; I think there is a big problem with many people not understanding the nature of public harassment and the perception among victims that such an environment creates. If we're looking, as third parties, and separating out what is and is not harassment and judging what a woman should do based on our perceived clarity, that's wrong — it's not understanding the necessarily nebulous and therefore hostile environment many women face where you just can't afford to make those nuanced decisions. You might very well be responding to some guy who will walk at your shoulder for the next five minutes without invitation . . . or worse.

You admitted to Zymologist that you understood why the clarification was needed. So, I hope you don't think I was reading from a different perspective and glossing over details. I do (usually) pay attention. ;)