The Problem of Evil

[rhutchin]

Some thoughts on the problem of evil.

The term, “evil,” is an adjective; it is descriptive. When we say that someone or something is evil, we are describing it as something that is basically undesirable.

For evil to exist, someone has to define what it is. One can do this by defining what is “good.” Then we define evil as “not good.”

When God finished the creation, He described everything as “very good.” There was nothing evil at that time nor could anything be declared evil unless it undid what God had done. Therefore, we might define “evil” as anything that undoes what God has done.

When God gave the command to Adam and Eve, he defined what was good. It was good to refrain from eating the fruit of a certain tree. We can then define “evil” as eating the fruit. Therefore, we can define obedience to God as good and disobedience to God as evil.

The question comes up, Why does God allow evil? We can rephrase this as, Why does God allow people to disobey Him? The short answer is that He decided to give people the freedom to obey Him if they want and disobey if they do not.

This is the foundation I would begin to construct for any discussions about evil. Any additions?

[lee_merrill]

Hi Rhutchin,

I would ask this: Do we really want always and only nothing to overcome? No mountains to climb, no dragons to contend with? Only and always living instead in a pillow palace?

And if there is no suffering, what would there be to reward? No "well done" can be spoken, to those who have coasted downhill all the way...

Blessings,
Lee

[Ormly]

Some thoughts on the problem of evil.

The term, “evil,” is an adjective; it is descriptive. When we say that someone or something is evil, we are describing it as something that is basically undesirable.

For evil to exist, someone has to define what it is. One can do this by defining what is “good.” Then we define evil as “not good.”

When God finished the creation, He described everything as “very good.” There was nothing evil at that time nor could anything be declared evil unless it undid what God had done. Therefore, we might define “evil” as anything that undoes what God has done.

When God gave the command to Adam and Eve, he defined what was good. It was good to refrain from eating the fruit of a certain tree. We can then define “evil” as eating the fruit. Therefore, we can define obedience to God as good and disobedience to God as evil.

The question comes up, Why does God allow evil? We can rephrase this as, Why does God allow people to disobey Him? The short answer is that He decided to give people the freedom to obey Him if they want and disobey if they do not.

This is the foundation I would begin to construct for any discussions about evil. Any additions?

Wake up! Evil "happened" BEFORE Adam and Eve! There's a battle in the heavenly's that we aren't privy to. It has to do with Angels, Satan, Jesus Christ, and God. Humanity is the prize either in part or in the whole. In the whole Satan has been defeated, but in the parcel, he's alive and well. He roams the earth seeking whom he may to devour --- especially the body of Christ, the Church.

[smaller]

Some thoughts on the problem of evil.

The term, “evil,” is an adjective; it is descriptive. When we say that someone or something is evil, we are describing it as something that is basically undesirable.

For evil to exist, someone has to define what it is.

God created "everything" that is INCLUDING evil (Isaiah 45:7) for His Pleasure.

All things were created by Him both "visible" and "invisible" and "evil" can encompass both categories.

One can do this by defining what is “good.” Then we define evil as “not good.”

Using God as our comparative either good or evil is not "perfect." Good is considered as "it's own reward" as is "evil." Both positions multiply unto themselves, good to positive and evil to negative. Both are to be considered "lesser" powers or influences highlighted by "polarity."

When God finished the creation, He described everything as “very good.” There was nothing evil at that time nor could anything be declared evil unless it undid what God had done.

So not true. Since God can make "good" come of "evil" even evil can be considered "good" in the sense that God may show His Superiority OVER it by even making good of evil.

We also know that satan was a "liar" and a "murderer" from the "beginning" and I find nowhere where the devil and his messengers are considered "very good" other than in God's Full Intention to eventually destroy them and usurp their "works" via His Overpowering Superiority.

Therefore, we might define “evil” as anything that undoes what God has done.

A very unlikely presentation unless you "knew" everything God intends and how He moves with every "piece" of the puzzle.

When God gave the command to Adam and Eve, he defined what was good. It was good to refrain from eating the fruit of a certain tree.

I would consider God's Command to "naturally" be violated by Adam and Eve.

Adam after all was God's son. Any son desires to be "like" their Father. When God said "you may eat freely EXCEPT" Adam already knew that there is no FREEDOM that includes EXCEPTIONS. Therefore it was right that the "command" aroused "sin" and caused it to be "revealed." Adam may have been a perfect man, but was neither "incorruptible" or Perfect as God IS Perfect. Adam had no choice other than to move in The Fathers Direction and that included "exposure" to evil.

God's Command also includes "let Light shine from darkness." So in this we can see Adam as a lesser "light" shinning from "darkness" being the "sin" that Adam was "exposed to." This is not a "bad" thing as it results in much good.

We can then define “evil” as eating the fruit. Therefore, we can define obedience to God as good and disobedience to God as evil.

Evil will not escape with an attachment of only "disobedience." Evil is God's servant as ALL THINGS are simply because He IS Greater than "all things."

The question comes up, Why does God allow evil?

He does not just allow it. He created it. He uses it. He will put it away like a temporary and common "garden tool."

We can rephrase this as, Why does God allow people to disobey Him?

Paul tells us in Romans 11:32 that it was God who bound all men to disobedience (including presumably Adam) for the purpose of demonstrating His Eternal Mercy to all men. In this we see God's Wisdom in the creation and using of evil.

The problem is we have been constucted in such a way that we cannot discern ourselves from the disobedience that we are bound with. Mankind does not have to be the same as the disobedience that we are all bound with. God has constucted all men in this way and we do not discern the "difference" by God's Election to hide this from us, His Children. God is really the boogey man in this exercise trying to teach His Kids some things about darkness.

The short answer is that He decided to give people the freedom to obey Him if they want and disobey if they do not.

IF the supposed "freedom" we theoretically have included the power to overcome the "sin" that indwells our flesh I could agree but of course all the supposed "free" will in the world will not allow mankind to escape the influences that sin indwelling bring to every person that cause even "believers" to see "in part" and in "darkness." There is no "free" in part and in darkness.

[Ormly]

Adam after all was God's son.

Wrong! Therefore your whole argument is scewed beyond repair and discussion.

[smaller]

Wrong! Therefore your whole argument is scewed beyond repair and discussion.

Ormly, your freewill has overshadowed simple logic. Move along.

Luke 3:38
Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

[Ormly]

Ormly, your freewill has overshadowed simple logic. Move along.

Luke 3:38
Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Why don't you to sort it out properly? Who was God's ONLY BEGOTTEN? Adam? Now if you can see that Adam wasn't, which I doubt, though you really do, then you will agree your cult-like premise is wrong. In this, one size doesn't fit all.

----- I'll now move along

[smaller]

Why don't you to sort it out properly? Who was God's ONLY BEGOTTEN? Adam? Now if you can see that Adam wasn't, which I doubt, though you really do, then you will agree your cult-like premise is wrong. In this, one size doesn't fit all.

----- I'll now move along

I am certainly willing to measure a SINLESS SON as The Begotten Son and the very Image of God Himself. This does not negate Adam as being God's son measured under the provision of Jesus Christ through Whom all things were made including the First Adam and the Last Adam.

All of Israel are called both God's Children and "gods" as well.

When mankind is separated from "sin" kind it becomes easier to see by The Light of the Word. When a man is locked into the eternal judgment of his neighbors whom God has commanded us to Love, then your measures are only in darkness.

[Ormly]

----- A-a-hh------uuu-u-m-m-mmm

[smaller]

----- A-a-hh------uuu-u-m-m-mmm

Ormly, only you would post a position that God burns His Own Children, begotten or not. I think that makes a definition of "evil."

[Cue The Son]

Ormly, only you would post a position that God burns His Own Children, begotten or not. I think that makes a definition of "evil."

Goodness people aren't we GETTING OFF THE POINT a little?

Sorry i'm a newcomer.

However, it seems to me that we have forgotten that "through Him all things were made and was not anything without Him made that was made" - forgive the imperfect quotation - it's late at night for me. Anyway, the point is,

1 God creates all things, and wills them into existence.
2 God is good and therefore all He creates is good
3 Evil is not good
4 Evil cannot exist as a substance - for it would have to be created and (2)
5 Evil is indeed an 'adjective' but we ought not define it in positive terms (eg disobediance)

The Devil sinned by saying " i WILL ascend..." this created an epistemological problem:

God is Truth.
To deny Truth is to lie
Truth by ITS NATURE expulses lies
therefore God had to expel Satan - for if He did not, He would have been supporting Satan's claim - which is not True, and this would negate His Godhood - that is, His being Truth.

Thus we see that while evil might be of the devil (just remove the 'd'...) it is NOT a THING...

If something were truly 'evil' then it would NOT BE - for all existence owes its being to God who IS and wills us to be. God, being good, cannot create or will the existence of Evil - that is as a substance. This is why Jesus is needed because without His salvific act, we are less than Good. "Only God is Good".

et cetera

It is the quintessential paradox of the Godman that faciltates the function of the Redeemer..."God keeps His oath to sparrows" (Emily Dickinson) Mt 10:29-31

Yours, Tristan

[rhutchin]

rhutchin
…The term, “evil,” is an adjective; it is descriptive. When we say that someone or something is evil, we are describing it as something that is basically undesirable.

For evil to exist, someone has to define what it is.

Smaller
God created "everything" that is INCLUDING evil (Isaiah 45:7) for His Pleasure.

All things were created by Him both "visible" and "invisible" and "evil" can encompass both categories.

Here we disagree. My point is that “evil” is not a physical entity that is created. The term, “evil,” is an adjective that we use to describe actions by created entities (people or angels). The question then is, What is evil? We might say that murder is evil, but murder is not evil until God says that it is. If God did not say to Adam, “Do not eat,” then there would have been nothing wrong or evil about Adam eating the fruit. It is when God classifies an action as evil (or as good) that we know what evil is.

The citation to Isaiah 45:7 is to a Hebrew term that is different than that normally translated into English as “evil.” Isaiah 45:7 is talking about something other than the “evil” to which I am referring in this thread. Someone should check the Hebrew out just to make sure about this.

rhutchin
When God finished the creation, He described everything as “very good.” There was nothing evil at that time nor could anything be declared evil unless it undid what God had done.

Smaller
So not true. Since God can make "good" come of "evil" even evil can be considered "good" in the sense that God may show His Superiority OVER it by even making good of evil.

We also know that satan was a "liar" and a "murderer" from the "beginning" and I find nowhere where the devil and his messengers are considered "very good" other than in God's Full Intention to eventually destroy them and usurp their "works" via His Overpowering Superiority.

Even given what you say, we identify those things that are “evil” by their actions and that is because God defines those actions as evil. Satan is a "liar" and a "murderer." Lying and murder are “evil” actions because God defines them as evil. Satan can then be described as “evil” because he does evil actions; he lies and he murders.

rhutchin
Therefore, we might define “evil” as anything that undoes what God has done.

Smaller
A very unlikely presentation unless you "knew" everything God intends and how He moves with every "piece" of the puzzle.

I do not think that we have to know everything in order to define the term, “evil.” If we define everything that God does as good regardless of whether we know everything that God does, then we can, as a matter of definition, characterize as evil anything that undoes what God has done.

rhutchin
When God gave the command to Adam and Eve, he defined what was good. It was good to refrain from eating the fruit of a certain tree.

Smaller
I would consider God's Command to "naturally" be violated by Adam and Eve.

Adam after all was God's son. Any son desires to be "like" their Father. When God said "you may eat freely EXCEPT" Adam already knew that there is no FREEDOM that includes EXCEPTIONS. Therefore it was right that the "command" aroused "sin" and caused it to be "revealed." Adam may have been a perfect man, but was neither "incorruptible" or Perfect as God IS Perfect. Adam had no choice other than to move in The Fathers Direction and that included "exposure" to evil….

The point here is that God’s command that Adam could freely eat “except” established what was good (not eating) and what was evil (eating). If God had not make this distinction, then eating would not have been evil. It was God’s command that determined what was good and what was evil and by making this command, God gave Adam the ability to act in a way that could be described as evil.

rhutchin
We can then define “evil” as eating the fruit. Therefore, we can define obedience to God as good and disobedience to God as evil.

Smaller
Evil will not escape with an attachment of only "disobedience." Evil is God's servant as ALL THINGS are simply because He IS Greater than "all things."

When you say that evil is a servant, do you mean that evil is a being or a tangible entity or do you mean that the being or tangible entity can be described as evil?

rhutchin
The question comes up, Why does God allow evil?

Smaller
He does not just allow it. He created it. He uses it. He will put it away like a temporary and common "garden tool."

This helps with the issue. If you say that God created “evil” then can you describe the physical characteristics of whatever is “evil”?

rhutchin
The short answer is that He decided to give people the freedom to obey Him if they want and disobey if they do not.

Smaller
IF the supposed "freedom" we theoretically have included the power to overcome the "sin" that indwells our flesh I could agree but of course all the supposed "free" will in the world will not allow mankind to escape the influences that sin indwelling bring to every person that cause even "believers" to see "in part" and in "darkness." There is no "free" in part and in darkness.

I agree. Freedom, if abused, can be stifling.

[smaller]

Here we disagree. My point is that “evil” is not a physical entity that is created.

There are "spirits" of "anti-Christ" which equates to "anti-Love." These are "invisible powers" that God created to destroy.

So if we need a definition of "evil" we could best describe it as that which is ANTI-LOVE. The OPPOSITE of God Himself.

The term, “evil,” is an adjective that we use to describe actions by created entities (people or angels).

And I propose that evil as an invisible power exists regardless of it's "observable acts" of same.

The question then is, What is evil? We might say that murder is evil, but murder is not evil until God says that it is. If God did not say to Adam, “Do not eat,” then there would have been nothing wrong or evil about Adam eating the fruit. It is when God classifies an action as evil (or as good) that we know what evil is.

You cannot look only to external acts to determine "evil." We know using scripture that there are "invisible powers" that saints war against, so this precludes evil being only an "action figure."

The citation to Isaiah 45:7 is to a Hebrew term that is different than that normally translated into English as “evil.” Isaiah 45:7 is talking about something other than the “evil” to which I am referring in this thread.

You can scoff off the "translation" all you want. The facts will remain that God created "all things" visible and invisible and there are no exceptions from a scriptural perspective.

Someone should check the Hebrew out just to make sure about this.

Even given what you say, we identify those things that are “evil” by their actions and that is because God defines those actions as evil. Satan is a "liar" and a "murderer." Lying and murder are “evil” actions because God defines them as evil. Satan can then be described as “evil” because he does evil actions; he lies and he murders.

But you see satan is also the "father" of "all lies" even though you cannot "see" how this happens. dig? That is the "invisible power" of evil that satan "has" over the flesh of mankind. The flesh of mankind is his instant puppet and we cannot "see" how this operates. We can perhaps at a later time observe the external "fruit" or more accurately the lack thereof, but this does not get to the "ROOT" of the issue.

I do not think that we have to know everything in order to define the term, “evil.” If we define everything that God does as good regardless of whether we know everything that God does, then we can, as a matter of definition, characterize as evil anything that undoes what God has done.

None can "undo" what God does.

I would propose anti-God or anti-Love as being more accurate. Resistor of Love.

The point here is that God’s command that Adam could freely eat “except” established what was good (not eating) and what was evil (eating).

And again you only look to the observable act, not mindful of all the potential pieces that move without physical observation, i.e. the talking snake.

Christ spoke to entities that could not be seen constantly in the scriptures and they were upon men and women but were not the same as them. Why should this be neglected. We know that we can hear a lie with out ears, but do we see the "father" of the lie? No. Through God's Word we become "cognizant" of the workings of powers that cannot be seen any other way.

To see the "external act" of evil and to then eradicate the act so it never occured again would not eradicate the "father" of all lies.

If God had not make this distinction, then eating would not have been evil. It was God’s command that determined what was good and what was evil and by making this command, God gave Adam the ability to act in a way that could be described as evil.

We know that The Law is "spiritual." I could make several observations about The Law but suffice it to say that The Command was given to the "lawless" who immediately "break The Law" because that is what "they" are meant to do, and they "did it" with Adam. By one man "sin" entered the world.

When you say that evil is a servant, do you mean that evil is a being or a tangible entity or do you mean that the being or tangible entity can be described as evil?

Let's put this into perspective here. God is beyond any comprehension that we will ever come up with. He is Great Beyond Measure.

As such I have boiled this down to a simple equation which really is nothing more than a synopsis of the several scriptures that represent the position. It is this: All things serve The Maker of all things.

This service would include powers both visible and invisible.

This helps with the issue. If you say that God created “evil” then can you describe the physical characteristics of whatever is “evil”?

Such a thing would equate to trying to make a box to fit Love into. Quite a dead end to "physically" capture evil like a "lion."

[smaller]

Goodness people aren't we GETTING OFF THE POINT a little?

Sorry i'm a newcomer.

However, it seems to me that we have forgotten that "through Him all things were made and was not anything without Him made that was made" - forgive the imperfect quotation - it's late at night for me. Anyway, the point is,

1 God creates all things, and wills them into existence.
2 God is good and therefore all He creates is good
3 Evil is not good
4 Evil cannot exist as a substance - for it would have to be created and (2)
5 Evil is indeed an 'adjective' but we ought not define it in positive terms (eg disobediance)

Evil includes a definition of "invisible power" and nothing was created except by God and this includes satan, his messengers, and evil. (Isaiah 45:7)

The Devil sinned by saying " i WILL ascend..." this created an epistemological problem:

The devil was a liar and a murderer from the beginning according to Jesus. He was "made" to "resist" God.

God is Truth.
To deny Truth is to lie

So is to "define" or "contain" Truth or God a lie.

Truth by ITS NATURE expulses lies
therefore God had to expel Satan - for if He did not, He would have been supporting Satan's claim - which is not True, and this would negate His Godhood - that is, His being Truth.

The notion that satan was some holy angel run amok is a false one. Satan could have been a "perfect" devil from the beginning yet still have been a "devil."

Thus we see that while evil might be of the devil (just remove the 'd'...) it is NOT a THING...

If something were truly 'evil' then it would NOT BE - for all existence owes its being to God who IS and wills us to be. God, being good, cannot create or will the existence of Evil - that is as a substance. This is why Jesus is needed because without His salvific act, we are less than Good. "Only God is Good".

The Word says God not only creates evil, but uses evil for His Intended Purposes. The notion that God is bound and cannot do evil is patently a limit upon God. Better to see that God is so far exceedingly superior to evil that He can use it to make good come about and this He has done and will continue to do.

[rhutchin]

rhutchin
Here we disagree. My point is that “evil” is not a physical entity that is created.

Smaller
There are "spirits" of "anti-Christ" which equates to "anti-Love." These are "invisible powers" that God created to destroy.

So if we need a definition of "evil" we could best describe it as that which is ANTI-LOVE. The OPPOSITE of God Himself.

That’s an interesting take. If God is love, then God could have created an entity that was opposite to Himself and could be called not-love. (I think anti is the wrong term to use since anti-love just means that one is against love when we need something that is actually not God or not-love).

If the invisible powers are anti-Christ or against Christ, they would not necessarily have had to be created evil. They could start out as good and then become what we would describe as evil (like Adam when Adam did evil).

Do you see Satan, perhaps, as having been originally created as not-love or as an entity that was created good but became anti-Christ?

rhutchin
The term, “evil,” is an adjective that we use to describe actions by created entities (people or angels).

Smaller
And I propose that evil as an invisible power exists regardless of it's "observable acts" of same.

That’s interesting also. Do you mean an invisible power unto itself or an invisible power exerted by some unique entity? Kinda creepy to think of unseen powers that are pure evil and nothing else.

rhutchin
The question then is, What is evil? We might say that murder is evil, but murder is not evil until God says that it is. If God did not say to Adam, “Do not eat,” then there would have been nothing wrong or evil about Adam eating the fruit. It is when God classifies an action as evil (or as good) that we know what evil is.

Smaller
You cannot look only to external acts to determine "evil." We know using scripture that there are "invisible powers" that saints war against, so this precludes evil being only an "action figure."

Looking at external acts is the way to identify those who are evil. If someone or something does something that we call evil, then we can describe that entity as evil.

When the Scriptures speak of the saints warring against unseen powers, I always got the picture of physical entities like Satan and the demons who do evil and seek to get the saints to do evil and can themselves be described as evil. This is what they now are but not what they were created as.

rhutchin
The citation to Isaiah 45:7 is to a Hebrew term that is different than that normally translated into English as “evil.” Isaiah 45:7 is talking about something other than the “evil” to which I am referring in this thread.

Smaller
You can scoff off the "translation" all you want. The facts will remain that God created "all things" visible and invisible and there are no exceptions from a scriptural perspective. Someone should check the Hebrew out just to make sure about this.

I still think we need to be concerned with the Hebrew words that are translated as well as the translation itself. In the Greek, three Greek words can each be translated as the English, “Love.” They do not mean the same thing and we should be careful not to treat them as the same just because the translation makes them appear to be the same.

rhutchin
Even given what you say, we identify those things that are “evil” by their actions and that is because God defines those actions as evil. Satan is a "liar" and a "murderer." Lying and murder are “evil” actions because God defines them as evil. Satan can then be described as “evil” because he does evil actions; he lies and he murders.

Smaller
But you see satan is also the "father" of "all lies" even though you cannot "see" how this happens. dig? That is the "invisible power" of evil that satan "has" over the flesh of mankind. The flesh of mankind is his instant puppet and we cannot "see" how this operates. We can perhaps at a later time observe the external "fruit" or more accurately the lack thereof, but this does not get to the "ROOT" of the issue.

Here you identify evil as the power wielded by Satan. Is that what you meant earlier? So, what is the root of the issue? Is Satan evil because God created him as evil or did Satan become evil some time after he was created?

rhutchin
I do not think that we have to know everything in order to define the term, “evil.” If we define everything that God does as good regardless of whether we know everything that God does, then we can, as a matter of definition, characterize as evil anything that undoes what God has done.

Smaller
None can "undo" what God does.

I would propose anti-God or anti-Love as being more accurate. Resistor of Love.

Technically, no. However, God did allow Satan to undo His work in the garden. God allowed Satan to undo or take away the blessings God had given to Job. I agree that evil is anti-love; I just think it is more: it is non-love.

rhutchin
The point here is that God’s command that Adam could freely eat “except” established what was good (not eating) and what was evil (eating).

Smaller
And again you only look to the observable act, not mindful of all the potential pieces that move without physical observation, i.e. the talking snake.

Christ spoke to entities that could not be seen constantly in the scriptures and they were upon men and women but were not the same as them. Why should this be neglected. We know that we can hear a lie with out ears, but do we see the "father" of the lie? No. Through God's Word we become "cognizant" of the workings of powers that cannot be seen any other way.

To see the "external act" of evil and to then eradicate the act so it never occured again would not eradicate the "father" of all lies.

I am not disagreeing with you. I do not think we would know the “Father of lies” unless he lied or God told us who he was. He would not be the “Father of lies” if he did not actually lie. Jesus said that you would know people by their fruit, the outward manifestation of their hearts. Without observable acts, what could we determine (absent some other source of information)?

rhutchin
If God had not make this distinction, then eating would not have been evil. It was God’s command that determined what was good and what was evil and by making this command, God gave Adam the ability to act in a way that could be described as evil.

Smaller
We know that The Law is "spiritual." I could make several observations about The Law but suffice it to say that The Command was given to the "lawless" who immediately "break The Law" because that is what "they" are meant to do, and they "did it" with Adam. By one man "sin" entered the world.

We agree on this point.

rhutchin
When you say that evil is a servant, do you mean that evil is a being or a tangible entity or do you mean that the being or tangible entity can be described as evil?

Smaller
Let's put this into perspective here. God is beyond any comprehension that we will ever come up with. He is Great Beyond Measure.

As such I have boiled this down to a simple equation which really is nothing more than a synopsis of the several scriptures that represent the position. It is this: All things serve The Maker of all things.

This service would include powers both visible and invisible.

I hear you saying that God created things and that these things act in ways that can be described as evil. If so, we agree. Otherwise, I have misunderstood you.

When you say that these things serve their Maker, I am taking you to mean that no one does evil unless God allows them to do so (as God allowed Satan to do evil against Job but only with His permission)

rhutchin
This helps with the issue. If you say that God created “evil” then can you describe the physical characteristics of whatever is “evil”?

Smaller
Such a thing would equate to trying to make a box to fit Love into. Quite a dead end to "physically" capture evil like a "lion."

I think I agree if you mean that evil is not a physical entity that can be contained in a box.