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The New Testament is Anti-Semitic

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  • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    I'm curious. What in my remarks do you see as hyperbolic?
    Your reference to the Baha'i writings being anti-Jewish
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      Your reference to the Baha'i writings being anti-Jewish
      No, I would not say that. I have only read an extremely small amount of the Baha'i sacred scriptures and would therefore never characterize them globally like that. I did ask you your opinion about this one section I quoted and you declined to give a clear answer. Yes, saying that the Jews are accursed, that particular statement does sound anti-Jewish to me, it sounds like very strong negative language. Do you really imagine it is a positive or neutral thing to say that the Jewish people are accursed?

      I asked you about this in Post #50, but you would only say (#61) that these are the consequences of people rejecting the Revelation of God, rejecting the Guidance and Blessing of a Revelation and the grace, spiritual unity and harmony of which that Revelation offers. Not a very direct response in my opinion, but do you think even this is a positive thing to say about the Jews and others? Do you think it is a neutral thing to say about others? Eventually, you would add that all of this is being self-accursed, 'though you admitted that the Jews would certainly not agree with this characterization of them cursing themselves. Even this, 'though, do you think it is a positive or neutral thing to say about the Jews, namely that they are self-accursed?

      Because you appealed to the larger context, I quoted an earlier paragraph in which which the the Jews are spoken of as 'wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and false imaginings, still expecting the idol of their own handiwork. Thus hath God laid hold of them for their sins, hath extinguished in them the spirit of faith, and tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire.'

      Do you think it is a positive or neutral thing to say that the Jews are wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and false imaginings? To claim that they are looking forward to is idolatry? To say that God laid hold of them for their sins, that he extinguished in them the spirit of faith, and tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire--does that sound like a positive or neutral thing to say about the Jews? Really? Be honest.

      If I am using hyperbolic language here, it is only because I am directly quoting the negative language of this text to you in an attempt to get you to speak plainly and honestly about it. This text certainly does not seem positive or neutral about the Jews.
      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

      Comment


      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        Your reference to the Baha'i writings being anti-Jewish
        This section places blame on Jewish people for centuries of hatred and violence because they won't accept Jesus and Mohammed:

        Source: bahai.org

        Could it be said that the acceptance of Moses by the Christians and Muḥammadans has been harmful and detrimental to those people? On the contrary, it has been beneficial to them, proving that they have been fair-minded and just. What harm could result to the Jewish people then if they in return should accept His Holiness Christ and acknowledge the validity of the prophethood of His Holiness Muḥammad? By this acceptance and praiseworthy attitude the enmity and hatred which have afflicted mankind so many centuries would be dispelled, fanaticism and bloodshed pass away and the world be blessed by unity and agreement. -Source

        © Copyright Original Source

        Comment


        • By the way, does the Universal House of Justice agree that it has no authority to interpret Baha'i scriptures?

          Originally posted by Sen McGlinn View Post
          Yes, absolutely. To quote one of their statements:
          In the Bahá'í Faith there are two authoritative centers appointed to which the believers must turn, for in reality the Interpreter of the Word is an extension of that center which is the Word itself. The Book is the record of the utterance of Bahá'u'lláh, while the divinely inspired Interpreter is the living Mouth of that Book -- it is he and he alone who can authoritatively state what the Book means. Thus one center is the Book with its Interpreter, and the other is the Universal House of Justice guided by God to decide on whatever is not explicitly revealed in the Book.
          (7 December 1969, published in "Messages from the Universal House of Justice: 1968-1973", pp. 42-43)
          Is this saying something like the interpretation of the scriptures must be inspired in the same way that the scriptures themselves were inspired?

          In this sentence below, does 'he and he alone' refer back to the immediately preceding 'the divinely inspired Interpreter' or earlier to the 'Bahá'u'lláh'?
          The Book is the record of the utterance of Bahá'u'lláh, while the divinely inspired Interpreter is the living Mouth of that Book -- it is he and he alone who can authoritatively state what the Book means.

          If you prefer to take this discussion back to its original context in the discussion Shuny and I were having here on Revelation, I've posted this question that that thread as well:

          http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...356#post124356
          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

          Comment


          • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
            If you prefer to take this discussion back to its original context in the discussion Shuny and I were having here on Revelation, I've posted this question that that thread as well:

            http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...356#post124356
            The question fits better in the thread on Divine Revelation. I have answered there, but without reading all the earlier posts

            Comment


            • People seem to read into the scriptures anything they happen to think. And undoubtedly the historical churches of christianity have been rabidly anti-semetic nearly from the beginning and particularly so with Roman catholics. This factor has toned down some in the last few centuries but the echoes seem to remain and perpetuate regardless.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by squint View Post
                People seem to read into the scriptures anything they happen to think. And undoubtedly the historical churches of christianity have been rabidly anti-semetic nearly from the beginning and particularly so with Roman catholics. This factor has toned down some in the last few centuries but the echoes seem to remain and perpetuate regardless.
                When Judaism stops its quest to tell Christians that their traditions are all completely false and its book; you will see a lot less hostility towards Jews. Jews ask the same thing of us. Who has the double standard now?

                I would also like to note that in the NT, the Jews are usually Judai, and that the book concerns itself with Israel rather than Rabbinic Judaism or Christianity. The appearance of anti-Jewish passages are actually anti-Herod, and anti-Pharisee.
                Last edited by Omniskeptical; 11-25-2014, 03:34 PM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Omniskeptical View Post
                  When Judaism stops its quest to tell Christians that their traditions are all completely false and its book; you will see a lot less hostility towards Jews. Jews ask the same thing of us. Who has the double standard now?
                  Even most unbelievers on both sides will generally acknowledge that we're all dealing with the same God in either O.T. or N.T. There are of course 'some' Jews who will claim otherwise. They are entitled to their opinions. Just as there are still some christians who disavow the O.T. as being applicable to N.T. believers just as they may believe that the N.T. doesn't apply to them.
                  I would also like to note that in the NT, the Jews are usually Judai, and that the book concerns itself with Israel rather than Rabbinic Judaism or Christianity. The appearance of anti-Jewish passages are actually anti-Herod, and anti-Pharisee.
                  You would be perhaps an example of my statement: "there are still some christians who disavow the O.T. as being applicable to N.T. believers."

                  Jesus didn't make that claim nor did the O.T. Word of God make that claim.

                  Comment


                  • Everyone who are not saved are under the bondage of the devil. So any verse which accuses Judeans is not to be understood any differently that that of the unsaved nations. ". . . To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in Me. " -- Acts 26:18.
                    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Omniskeptical View Post
                      When Judaism stops its quest to tell Christians that their traditions are all completely false and its book; you will see a lot less hostility towards Jews. Jews ask the same thing of us. Who has the double standard now?
                      This a problem on what justifies violence and hostility against another belief system or religion. It is never justified. Interesting is the view from the Baha'i perspective, is that the hostility and violence between religions is the rejection of the Progressive Revelation from God, causing human selfish motivations, hostility and violent polarizations. The Divine compassion and love for all of humanity is lost, and humanity suffers.

                      I would also like to note that in the NT, the Jews are usually Judai, and that the book concerns itself with Israel rather than Rabbinic Judaism or Christianity. The appearance of anti-Jewish passages are actually anti-Herod, and anti-Pharisee.
                      This may be your view, but the reality of history is different.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        This may be your view, but the reality of history is different.
                        The NT cannot be blamed for the stupid squabbles of orthodox Jews, and Trinitarian Christians.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Omniskeptical View Post
                          The NT cannot be blamed for the stupid squabbles of orthodox Jews, and Trinitarian Christians.
                          The stupid squabbles you speak of result in Doctrine, Dogma, and the body of beliefs
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            The stupid squabbles you speak of result in Doctrine, Dogma, and the body of beliefs
                            Modern Jews don't believe Jesus is a statement made by God. If Jesus was human, and he most certainly was, there is no reason he shouldn't be. Jews have a hard time believing this, but it doesn't make their doubts anyless cynical.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Omniskeptical View Post
                              Modern Jews don't believe Jesus is a statement made by God. If Jesus was human, and he most certainly was, there is no reason he shouldn't be. Jews have a hard time believing this, but it doesn't make their doubts anyless cynical.
                              I do not believe cynicism is the issue. Apparently the argument presented by Jesus and converted Jews to most Jews of the time was not convincing, except to the Gentiles of Rome. By~600 AD there were few Jewish Christians. Yes, Jews, Baha'is and Muslims will not accept the Trinitarian belief in the nature of God, but that should not inspire nor justify violence against those that believe differently. Muslims consider the Baha'i Faith to be Heretical even though they are both share the same Monotheism, and in most Muslim countries the punishment for being a Baha'i is death.
                              Last edited by shunyadragon; 01-27-2015, 05:39 PM.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • Thanks for the article; very interesting. It's rather sophomoric to attempt to fit today's buzz phrases into Biblical context. I guess the root of it all is that man is evil in nature and is in need of a savior. However, this Scripture in Romans neatly sums the point up:

                                What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin" Romans 3:9
                                Key word "all" in "all are under sin."

                                - Steven

                                Comment

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