"Rapture" Flavors

[NathanDavid]

Question 4 is multiple choice; (I changed my mind)...

a) unaware b) backsliders c) hypocrites d) u-u-u-u-h?

[Dee Dee Warren]

this really isn't a debate thread

And if it is either of you two guys who sent me those bizarre emails on Revelation - stop. I didn't even read them a fast scroll and into the trash can, and then immediately said "Mighty Finder, go empty the trash."

[NathanDavid]

I don't spam.

[Bob JOnes]

Not I.

[brainout]

Okay, for the event commonly known as the "Rapture" - which is your view?

Definitely and only pre-Trib. I spent 8 whopping years writing webpages, four of which were spent solely on the juridical basis and precedents for the Trib. 60-hour weeks. Payback, actually. When I learned it all the first time over four years of daily exegesis, I was bored (prophecy bores me). So, I had to write it all out, 20 years later!

Now, the reason there's dissension over the Rapture is that folks don't know the Bible's nomenclature for it. So they think it was invented in the 1800's. But the actual precedence and cause for the Rapture is based on two things: 1) God's Rules for Accounting Time, which begin at Adam's Fall; and 2) Matt16:18, Christ's unilateral election to pay for a yet-future CHURCH, in order to SAVE Time, due to Israel rejecting Him, which would BREACH God's Rules for Accounting Time.

No one in Christendom seems to know this 'side' of the Rapture doctrine, except maybe my pastor. I'm not 100% sure he knew of 1) exactly, but comments he makes in my huge inventory of Bible classes make me think he knew of it; he taught for over 53 years, and I have every class he recorded, but haven't gone through them all yet.

Central to this doctrine is that BELIEVERS BUY TIME. That's what the Genesis 5 roster tracks, and my pastor did teach that beginning in the late 1960's or so. That's why I posted the thread in the Bible Languages 301 forum about Isaiah 53's meter, because Isaiah uses these same rules, which God REMINDS Daniel of, in Daniel 9.

Again, Christendom doesn't seem to know of all this. I noticed that there's a pastor Hagee who put out some sermons on the idea of 490-year periods, but he tracks them incorrectly. There are some other pastors or people who are also now working on the idea, but they benchmark the accounting on current historical events, which is wrong. The actual BIBLE accounting balances back to Adam, and you can definitively prove the Rapture must precede the 7-year Trib and Millennium, because ONLY THE JEWS get that time, which is vested in Christ. It's a wrap-up of the Angelic Trial.

So if you're interested, look up the "Isaiah 53's Meter" thread in Bible Languages, or just go here: http://www.geocities.com/brainout1/Mirroring.htm

[Preterist264]

I'm a Post-Trip though I don't like using the term "Rapture' I prefer the resurection which is a word found in the bible.

[FaithThruDoubt]

I don't believe in the Rapture.

[Ex Nihilo]

I don't believe in the Rapture.

So you would say you are a "Trib Fail", kind of person?

[FaithThruDoubt]

So you would say you are a "Trib Fail", kind of person?

Maybe. You'd know better than me, it would seem.

[seanD]

The more I study this, the more I'm swayed towards a pre or mid-trib rapture. It seems that some sort of rapture occurs in Rev. 11, with the two witnesses, followed by Rev. 11:15-19, which is then followed by the revelation of the beast and the false prophet in Rev. 13. And this seems to coincide with what Paul says about the one taken out of the way before the "man of sin" is revealed 2 Th 2:3.

But I"m still not sure, and I'm having problems with the preceding verses in Rev. 9.

[RBerman]

The more I study this, the more I'm swayed towards a pre or mid-trib rapture. It seems that some sort of rapture occurs in Rev. 11, with the two witnesses, followed by Rev. 11:15-19, which is then followed by the revelation of the beast and the false prophet in Rev. 13. And this seems to coincide with what Paul says about the one taken out of the way before the "man of sin" is revealed 2 Th 2:3.

But I"m still not sure, and I'm having problems with the preceding verses in Rev. 9.

Revelation 11 describes murdered two men of God going to heaven, not a general rapture.

Part of your difficulty stems from your attempts to see Revelation as entirely sequential, rather than a series of sevens, each of which tells the same story in a different way concerning the coming triumph of Christ. Seven churches, seven seals, seven trumpets, seven bowls. Many people see the birth of Christ in Revelation 12:1-5, which would rule out Revelation 12 following Revelation 11 in history.

[seanD]

Revelation 11 describes murdered two men of God going to heaven, not a general rapture.

Part of your difficulty stems from your attempts to see Revelation as entirely sequential, rather than a series of sevens, each of which tells the same story in a different way concerning the coming triumph of Christ. Seven churches, seven seals, seven trumpets, seven bowls. Many people see the birth of Christ in Revelation 12:1-5, which would rule out Revelation 12 following Revelation 11 in history.

Though that's one way to interpret it, there are a myriad number of ways others argue of interpreting it. What makes one way or the other any more or less authoritative. And every Christian believes that their interpretation is "inspired" by the Holy Spirit.

And how would explain the gap between the seven seals and trumpets -- the revelation of the beast, the implied rapture of the 144, 000 (or those beheaded), the fall of Babylon, etc, etc., and the the continuation of the seven vials of God's wrath afterwards?

[RBerman]

Though that's one way to interpret it, there are a myriad number of ways others argue of interpreting it. What makes one way or the other any more or less authoritative. And every Christian believes that their interpretation is "inspired" by the Holy Spirit.

And how would explain the gap between the seven seals and trumpets -- the revelation of the beast, the implied rapture of the 144, 000 (or those beheaded), the fall of Babylon, etc, etc., and the the continuation of the seven vials of God's wrath afterwards?

There are indeed several rival ways to read Revelation. When you've chosen your method, the conclusions you're going to reach are largely predictable in advance. There's only a "gap" between the trumpets and the bowls if you're trying to read the text as a continuous chronology. If each story stands on its own, there's no reason not to have another story in the mix that doesn't use the "seven" theme. And that's precisely what I see the middle of Revelation.

[seanD]

There are indeed several rival ways to read Revelation. When you've chosen your method, the conclusions you're going to reach are largely predictable in advance. There's only a "gap" between the trumpets and the bowls if you're trying to read the text as a continuous chronology. If each story stands on its own, there's no reason not to have another story in the mix that doesn't use the "seven" theme. And that's precisely what I see the middle of Revelation.

Well, one thing I think is pretty stark is that, whether the fifth seal is the beginning of the trib, mid-trib, or the end of the trib, Christians must be gone by this point, because the only ones who are protected from these tormenting demons (and I believe they are literally manifested demons, not symbolic helicopters -- a la Hal Lindsey) are the 144, 000 chosen Jews with the mark, unless Christians are destined to get to this torment too.

Another thing that stumps me is Rev. 9:6? Can anyone make out what in the heck that means? Everyone becomes suddenly immortal?

[jksmith]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

There are indeed many ways to interpret the signs and symbols in Revelation, but to my knowledge, there are only two chronological views of Revelation. Revelation is seen as 1) a continuous, sequential chronology, or 2) an overlapping chronology. The sequential view is held by a majority of believers, and among those who hold an overlapping view, there are different understandings over where one vision ends and another vision begins.

RBerman indicates that he holds an overlapping view. I also hold this view and would like to hear more, though perhaps not in this thread. The poll that began this thread concerns when the rapture occurs--not the chronology of Revelation--though the chronology affects details of eschatology. For me, it was the "great winepress of the wrath of God" being trodden before the seven vials (Rev 14:18-20) and after the vials (Rev 19:15) as part of Jesus' return that caused me to re-evaluate my view--either the winepress is trodden twice or Revelation cannot be sequential.

Is there a current thread that discusses the chronology of Revelation? If so, I would like to share some of my understanding and hear from others on this topic.

Another thing that stumps me is Rev. 9:6? Can anyone make out what in the heck that means? Everyone becomes suddenly immortal?

Also, concerning death fleeing from men in Revelation 9:6, there is death both before and after this point regardless of chronology so it is likely that this is specifically part of the fifth trumpet.

In Christ's Love!

Ken