Oneness or Trinity

[endy]

The word of God was manifest in the flesh, not God. Read chapter 5 of John. Jesus Christ was not God incarnate. What ever you quote of Paul or interpreted descriptions you have to go back to Christ's own words in chapter 5 of John.

Shunyadragon you are referring to john 5:19 as the
father is speaking to another body but let us look
deeply to scriptures

Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath;
I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of
this world.
Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die
in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye
shall die in your sins.
Joh 8:25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And
Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto
you from the beginning.
Joh 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of
you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the
world those things which I have heard of him.
Joh 8:27 They understood not that he spake to them of
the Father.

Here we can see when Jesus spoke to them that He is
the father so that they didn`t understand. He is also
from above but you & me are from dust.

Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the
Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long
time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?
he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how
sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father,
and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you
I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in
me, he doeth the works.

What was speaking when He said?Have I been so long
time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?


A question arises in that How can be the Son as well
as the father?

The Son mean the one they see at the time of his
ministry & the father is the spirit which we can not
touch, see etc

So The Son is the Flesh & the father is the spirit
which dwells in the flesh.

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the
Godhead bodily.

Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with
you all. Amen.

[shunyadragon]

Shuny...

What is left out, not addressed in this idea of Triniy is the promise of Christ.

What all other teachings, Taoism, Buddhism, Islam, etc, leave out and only the Hebrew Scriptures bring to the world you miss.

I believe that nothing and no one is left out from any one who is sincere in his or her time and place. Revelation is a matter of relationships between the Divine and creation, not doctrine, orthodox or difined from the human perspective as is the Doctrine of the Trinity. Revelation is both innate and revealed, and it is always with us, every human on the face of the earth in its fullness for that time and place.

What is circumvented by Christianity, traditionally and in Middle Ages Orthodoxy is beyond the weak, the insignificant, and the misleading limited idea of Trinity as it is preached.

You emphasize this by what you sayelow:
"As far as 'PERSONS' in the Trinity go . . . they are defined as three seperate entities or PERSONS, God the Son, God the Spirit and God the Father."

True, it is misleading

What you leave out is God, us.

"We all have the power to become the son of God."

As above no one is left out. All humanity represents the children of God, but not the Son of God, which is the station of the messiah.

[shunyadragon]

Shunyadragon you are referring to john 5:19 as the
father is speaking to another body but let us look
deeply to scriptures.

This is Jesus speaking, not God the Father. Jesus Christ is not schizophrenic. There is not 'another body'.

Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath;
I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of
this world.
Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die
in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye
shall die in your sins.
Joh 8:25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And
Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto
you from the beginning.
Joh 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of
you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the
world those things which I have heard of him.
Joh 8:27 They understood not that he spake to them of
the Father.

Here we can see when Jesus spoke to them that He is
the father so that they didn`t understand. He is also
from above but you & me are from dust.

Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the
Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long
time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?
he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how
sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father,
and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you
I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in
me, he doeth the works.

What was speaking when He said?Have I been so long
time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?


A question arises in that How can be the Son as well
as the father?

The Son mean the one they see at the time of his
ministry & the father is the spirit which we can not
touch, see etc

So The Son is the Flesh & the father is the spirit
which dwells in the flesh.

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the
Godhead bodily.

Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with
you all. Amen.

Jesus Christ is the Son of god in the flesh, but not God incarnate. Jesus is the Messiah and the Christ. and God is the Father and the One and only God.

[endy]

This is Jesus speaking, not God the Father. Jesus Christ is not schizophrenic. There is not 'another body'.

Jesus Christ is the Son of god in the flesh, but not God incarnate. Jesus is the Messiah and the Christ. and God is the Father and the One and only God.

Shuny you are stressing that Jesus is the Son of god but look to this

1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.

No one has ever seen Jesus with his power meaning it is the father the one who dwelled on the flesh

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

[Pythagoras]

Oneness or Trinity?

How about neither?... Just a thought.

[Zeluvia]

The oneness vs trinity discussion is one of the highlights of interpretation variances in Christianity. It is one of the first attempts to reconcile and explain apparent contradictions.

It is pretty interesting. Right up there with the explanation of the existance of evil.

[themuzicman]

I believe in the Oneness of God. To me God is One and by himself created all things and through we have salvation. I believe that Jesus is God Manifested in the flesh, God became flesh. What I can not understand is how can theie be one God and yet be 3 persons in the God. How can the father be God and the Son as well and the Holy be God but each person is not one another yet they are one God. This is very confusing to me. Can someone explain?

Oneness has a problem in that they make Jesus to be bearing false witness of Himself.

In John 5, Jesus says that if He testifies of Himself, His testimony is not valid. However, a couple of verses later, He calls upon the the testimony of the Father. So, the Father and Christ must not be the same person, or Christ has violated His own words.

Michael

[Pythagoras]

Hi themuzicman,

Oneness has a problem in that they make Jesus to be bearing false witness of Himself.

In John 5, Jesus says that if He testifies of Himself, His testimony is not valid. However, a couple of verses later, He calls upon the the testimony of the Father. So, the Father and Christ must not be the same person, or Christ has violated His own words.

Michael

Don't you(and others on this thread) understand?... If 'oneness' is false , then so is 'trinity' ; both concepts essentially stipulate the same thing,that Christ is God the 'Father'; whether God[the 'Father'] as a three in one being , or God[the 'Father'] as a one in one being. -- therein lies the logical fallacy of both ideas.

Also, If "the 'Father' and 'Christ' are not the same person",as you mantain, then we have at least two Gods.

In other words , either both trinity and oneness must be true or both must be false. Since both cannot be true at the same time, must we therefore conclude the two ideas false/defunct?

The trinity doctrine makes God[the 'Father'] to have Multiple Personality Disorder , the oneness theory makes God[the 'Father'] a Schizophreniac.


Good Luck,.

[themuzicman]

Hi themuzicman,

Don't you(and others on this thread) understand?... If 'oneness' is false , then so is 'trinity' ; both concepts essentially stipulate the same thing,that Christ is God the 'Father'; whether God[the 'Father'] as a three in one being , or God[the 'Father'] as a one in one being. -- therein lies the logical fallacy of both ideas.

Also, If "the 'Father' and 'Christ' are not the same person",as you mantain, then we have at least two Gods.

In other words , either both trinity and oneness must be true or both must be false. Since both cannot be true at the same time, must we therefore conclude the two ideas false/defunct?

The trinity doctrine makes God[the 'Father'] to have Multiple Personality Disorder , the oneness theory makes God[the 'Father'] a Schizophreniac.


Good Luck,.

I disagree entirely. You're trying to assign human and created attributes to the uncreated, infinite God. Were God finite, you might have a point, but He is not.

The clear understanding of the trinity is One God in essense, with three persons. We aren't going to fully understand what is clear from scripture, but what IS clear is that 'oneness' theology fails in John 5.

Michael

[shunyadragon]

Hi themuzicman,

Don't you(and others on this thread) understand?... If 'oneness' is false , then so is 'trinity' ; both concepts essentially stipulate the same thing,that Christ is God the 'Father'; whether God[the 'Father'] as a three in one being , or God[the 'Father'] as a one in one being. -- therein lies the logical fallacy of both ideas.

Also, If "the 'Father' and 'Christ' are not the same person",as you mantain, then we have at least two Gods.

In other words , either both trinity and oneness must be true or both must be false. Since both cannot be true at the same time, must we therefore conclude the two ideas false/defunct?

The trinity doctrine makes God[the 'Father'] to have Multiple Personality Disorder , the oneness theory makes God[the 'Father'] a Schizophreniac.


Good Luck,.

This only fails with the assumption the Jesus Christ is God. The consistent theology of the OT is that God is one and inseperable and unknowable except for what is revealed. God is manifest in different forms and one form is the Word of God, The messiah is the annointed one, the spokesperson for God's Word. The messiah is not God, and has no power or authority of Himself, except what God wills Him to do. This is consistent with the OT and John 5, and I believe consistent with other references to what Christ said in the NT. What is said by Paul and others must be interpreted in light of this.

[shunyadragon]

Shuny you are stressing that Jesus is the Son of god but look to this

1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.

No one has ever seen Jesus with his power meaning it is the father the one who dwelled on the flesh

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

These are quotes from letters by Paul and they are not conclusive evidence to support your claim, because they must be interpreted in light of Christ's words. Christ's own words are a primary source, Paul is secondary. You are failing to address John 5 in important points brought up by themuzicman from the following post.

In John 5, Jesus says that if He testifies of Himself, His testimony is not valid. However, a couple of verses later, He calls upon the the testimony of the Father. So, the Father and Christ must not be the same person, or Christ has violated His own words.

The only way this is not contradictory is if the whole Bible is considered as in the following I posted in responce to a post by Pythagoras.

"This only fails with the assumption the Jesus Christ is God. The consistent theology of the OT is that God is one and inseperable and unknowable except for what is revealed. God is manifest in different forms and one form is the Word of God, The messiah is the annointed one, the spokesperson for God's Word. The messiah is not God, and has no power or authority of Himself, except what God wills Him to do. This is consistent with the OT and John 5, and I believe consistent with other references to what Christ said in the NT. What is said by Paul and others must be interpreted in light of this."

The trinity also contradicts the scripture in that it considers the three as equal and this just does not work.

[Pythagoras]

Hi Shuny,

I disagree entirely. You're trying to assign human and created attributes to the uncreated, infinite God.

The bible describes Christ[God in your view] by assigning human and created attributes to him--it calls Christ bread of life, the true vine, the good shepherd, the light of the world etc. And even in the OT God is sometimes described using created attributes. Besides you yourself have been using logic[a created attribute] to prove your point of view.

Were God finite, you might have a point, but He is not.

Why would God being infinite make my point null ?Infinity is after all a created attribute.

The clear understanding of the trinity is One God in essense, with three persons.

But this trinity idea is full of logical inconsistencies..

We aren't going to fully understand what is clear from scripture

The trinity is not clear . Infact many claim it does not even exist in scripture.

but what IS clear is that 'oneness' theology fails in John 5.

But the trinity fares no better.

[endy]

[QUOTE=shunyadragon]These are quotes from letters by Paul and they are not conclusive evidence to support your claim, because they must be interpreted in light of Christ's words. Christ's own words are a primary source, Paul is secondary. You are failing to address John 5 in important points brought up by themuzicman from the following post.

In the bible there is no word that says this is primary or this secondary. Scripture interprets scripture. I gave you verse that describe that Jesus has the power. You said He has no power. No answer.

Again I gave you God Is spirit & this God dwellth in the flesh. No answer.

As to John 5 the spirit is the witness of the flesh. No answer. Why don`t you bring God`s word? Make clear your position.

Your words must have confidence on the bible not of your understanding. Because philosophically you can interpret as your spirit leads you not as the bible says.

[endy]

Oneness has a problem in that they make Jesus to be bearing false witness of Himself.

In John 5, Jesus says that if He testifies of Himself, His testimony is not valid. However, a couple of verses later, He calls upon the the testimony of the Father. So, the Father and Christ must not be the same person, or Christ has violated His own words.

Michael

Wrong thoughts. The Father dwells in his own flesh. Because bible says
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Again

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

In Christ the fullness of the Godhead bodily dwelleth. The Spirit of Jesus is in the flesh. One body.

Plus

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

The Father of the child is Holy Ghost. Meaning the Spirit of the child is God`s spirit. Is this wrong understanding? I don`t think so.

[shunyadragon]

These are quotes from letters by Paul and they are not conclusive evidence to support your claim, because they must be interpreted in light of Christ's words. Christ's own words are a primary source, Paul is secondary. You are failing to address John 5 in important points brought up by themuzicman from the following post.

In the bible there is no word that says this is primary or this secondary. Scripture interprets scripture. I gave you verse that describe that Jesus has the power. You said He has no power. No answer.

I believe Christ's words take presidence over Paul. Yes I have answered. According to John 5 and Christ's own word he does not have the power, God does.

Again I gave you God Is spirit & this God dwellth in the flesh. No answer.

As to John 5 the spirit is the witness of the flesh. No answer. Why don`t you bring God`s word? Make clear your position.

God can dwellth where ever he choses, and manifest as He choses. There is still one and only one God, and Jesus Christ is not God.

My position is very clear Jesus Christ is the messiah the son of God. He is not God. He has no power or authority of His own he soeaks the Word of God, not His word. He has no power or authority of His own. If we bear witness to Him our witness is false.

Your words must have confidence on the bible not of your understanding. Because philosophically you can interpret as your spirit leads you not as the bible says.

If you take that attitude spirits can lead you and mislead you in many directions if you ignore the word of the Bible. That is one of the reason we have so many churches. Philisophically? Woooo! And not as the Bible says!! You are going far a field. I doubt few Christians would agree with you.