Does God love each of us equally?

[Calvinist4Him]

What exactly does the mean A4H?

Neither the first or the last are the first or the last.

Consider this question: Will a handicapped person on earth be loved less than a non-handicapped person in heaven? Now if we are not loved equally, and the grounds for receiving more love is based on good deeds, it seems to me that a handicapped person is destined to be on the short end of the stick both coming and going.

I believe the only grounds for receiving any love, is in Christ.

[Xmansmommy]

A4H, I'm just trying to think this through so please bear with me. Were A&E in Christ? Cain and Abel?

[GoBahnsen]

Actually GB, I guess I view it just a little differently. If God's love for us was equal, wouldn't our status in heaven be equal as well? The fact that John would be least in the kingdom of heaven means there is different status there. And if there is different status there, what is that based on?

If you don't mind me asking, what started this trouble in your sweet little head? I can almost hear the Lord saying "linda linda, you are troubled about so many things but GoBahnsen has chosen"... well nevermind...I was getting carried away in my special pleading argumentation/ fantasies. But what got you going on this? Are you feeling insecure?

I think we can separate status from love. Though some may be greater in heaven than others, the love of God need not be based on that. Come on, we've been through enough of that in this life! We're loved more or less for what we do or don't do. In heaven, I think we just rest in Christ and the Father's perfect love for all of His elect. We revel in His love that we can never be separated from. We're home...finally.

[Calvinist4Him]

A4H, I'm just trying to think this through so please bear with me.

No problemo Xmansmommy.

Were A&E in Christ? Cain and Abel?

A&E did have a relationship with the Trinity, but fell as a result of sin. Cain killed his brother Abel, and I do not recall him coming to repentance, so I am inclined to think Cain is not in Christ. Of course, all of the people mentioned lived before the Mosaic law. But Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. I do not know exactly how God will deal with those under the Mosaic law. I think the apostle Paul probably gives more insight into that than any other N.T. writer.

[Calvinist4Him]

I think we can separate status from love. Though some may be greater in heaven than others, the love of God need not be based on that.

My thought exactly.

[Xmansmommy]

If you don't mind me asking, what started this trouble in your sweet little head? I can almost hear the Lord saying "linda linda, you are troubled about so many things but GoBahnsen has chosen"... well nevermind...I was getting carried away in my special pleading argumentation/ fantasies. But what got you going on this?

This particular time? To be honest, the thread that rhutchin started regarding Jezz's comments about love vs hate. But it's been a topic I've often wondered about long before now.

Are you feeling insecure?

Not that I'm aware of. Unless you know something I don't know.

I think we can separate status from love. Though some may be greater in heaven than others, the love of God need not be based on that. Come on, we've been through enough of that in this life! We're loved more or less for what we do or don't do. In heaven, I think we just rest in Christ and the Father's perfect love for all of His elect. We revel in His love that we can never be separated from. We're home...finally.

Well, what is our status in heaven based on? And yes, I too cannot wait till we can rest in His love for eternity.

[Xmansmommy]

No problemo Xmansmommy.

Thanks!

A&E did have a relationship with the Trinity, but fell as a result of sin. Cain killed his brother Abel, and I do not recall him coming to repentance, so I am inclined to think Cain is not in Christ. Of course, all of the people mentioned lived before the Mosaic law. But Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. I do not know exactly how God will deal with those under the Mosaic law. I think the apostle Paul probably gives more insight into that than any other N.T. writer.

I appreciate your willingness to say there are some things we don't know regarding those that lived before the Mosaic law. I'd be willing to wager that even Cain thought he had a relationship with God before he killed his brother. Even if his heart wasn't in the right place. And I can't help but wonder if he thought he was loved by God. I dunno.

[Xmansmommy]

I say yes, for equal love is not identical to "same love". And God is big enough to love each individual as they are created to be, unique, with the same quality and intensity of love, and he would give his life for each unique person, even if his approach to them was different. Oh, yeah, he already did.

Donna, would you mind clarifying for me what the difference b/t equal and same is? Yes, I'm aware that we are all unique and that He gave His life for us all, and that was motivated by His love. But I personally believe that act of love is not all there is to be expressed by the God of Love.

Love is always for the sake of the other. And what some need in the moment, others do not. What brings joy to some,does not to the other. Nevertheless, the quality of love is equal, for the sake of the other.

Would you equate the quality of love with motivation then?

And Linda, your example of your kids is exactly that. God is so much more fair and knowing what is good and fair for each of us then we are.

I agree wholeheartedly. But I'm not exactly talking about God's provision. I'm talking about the emotion of Love. And yes, since I am an OVT, I believe God experiences the emotions that love encompasses.

As far as God 'hating Esau', hating the unelect, I refer you to all the calvinist threads. If God truly hated the "wicked", then no one would get saved.

Yup, yup!

And about the different quality of love you have for other people's kids, well I think that is a result of the fall. What a world, safe for kids, the KINGDOM itself when people love other's kids as their own. That is God's love, and his intention, and his desire, and his goal, and where we ought to be heading in our hearts IF we let God have his way in us.

Excellent observation! I couldn't agree more.

[Spokoina]

Simply, I love my son when I take him to football and encourage him to play. I yell and cheer at his game.

My daughter hates rowdiness. So I love her by reading books with her, and going for walks looking at nature.

Both examples, the love is equal in intensity and direction and purpose. Love is what brings two beings into one by both living for the sake of the other.

But the love is not expressed the same. One is more rowdy, one more pensive. Perfect for their individuality. But true love just equally for both.

[Spokoina]

I don't think we can separate status from love in this regard:

Love seeks to edify and raise the other, even above the one giving it. This is why Jesus said, greater works will you do, and to be great, you must be the servant of all, you must die to live etc etc.

Status is meaningless. The way up to the throne of God is going down under the least and lifting them up to that throne. Betcha?

[Xmansmommy]

I can relate completely to what you're saying Donna, as a parent. But I suppose I'm not conveying my thoughts clearly enough. I'm specifically referring to the emotion that accompanies love, rather than specific acts of love. I believe there is a difference, but heck, I've been wrong before so I can be wrong again.

[Spokoina]

well I wonder if there is a different emotion towards men then women. I suspect there is, being they contain different emotional responses. But equal. hm,,

[GoBahnsen]

You can't handle anymore. <must be a painful headache>

Nahhh...you're not such a painful headache, but just knowing that you thought of yourself that way makes we want to give you a big hug. Thanks Orm, I thought I would be the first to admit I was wrong...but you beat me to it. Thanks for telling the others that I had enough marbles too. Silly me...looking for more. Well I guess that just about wraps up a happy ending here...unless someone else wants to spill their guts .

[Ormly]

I refer you to GoBahnsen's post #3 as a thoughtful and sufficient answer.

But it's not sufficient. It's not accurate. Would you consider yourself an adopted son? If so you'd be wrong. You may be a child of God, but adopted? That's something you earn by learning. If you don't understand that may I suggest you pick up a Bible and begin. Start here:

Isaiah 9:6 (KJV)
For unto us a child is born,.....................
Hebrews 5:8 (KJV)
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Then get understanding on Roman adoption because that is the pattern. Jesus Himself, gives us the example. For thirty years He was tutored and then He was baptized by the Holy Ghost and began His ministry. The church has put undisciplined children on the street and called it ministry.


Being a child of God is for the self-centered, pious and conceited. Being a son is to be made someone of worth to the Father in His plans.
When you are born again you receive His nature -- instantly, but His Character is something that takes time and teaching; a progressive process from being tutored...

[GoBahnsen]

Amen to God's graciousness GB! I've also been considering just what it means for God to look at us and "see" Christ. Surely when God looks at us physically He doesn't see Jesus. And when we stand before Him in judgement we will be judged according to our works, so Jesus must not be all that He sees when He looks at us. Perhaps what it means is that when God looks at us, He sees someone whose sins are paid for by the precious blood of His Son, someone His Son loved enough to die for, someone pardoned from sin. Yes, I know we have Christ in us and we are in Christ too, and of course Christ is His Beloved, but does that mean we are only loved b/c of Christ in us & visa versa? I just have so many questions.

Well I guess this is just a matter of opinion at the moment. I still want to argue that apart from Christ in us, there is nothing lovely about us. God is on record saying that He thinks our righteosness is filthy rags (the actual Hebrew refers to something gross that I won't mention here). It seems to me that true Christianity is geared to pull the rug of pride right out from under us. While we were yet enemies Christ died for us. God did the most amazing thing. He loved those who hated Him.

I said in another thread, (which I moved to the Locker room) that I loved you because you were sweet, but I wouldn't say that God loved you because you were sweet. Would you? I think the minute we start looking inside of ourselves for reasons as to why God loves us or might love someone else more than us...we are looking in the wrong place. We have to come to grips with the fact that there was nothing in us that moved God to love us. He simply chose to love another enemy and to redeem another fallen, hell bound son or daughter of Adam. Grace.

It's humbling, but that's just what we need...humility. Someone here has accused me of thinking myself to be very humble. They PM'd me to tell me off, and how much they despised that aspect of my character, that being this false humility they think I'm guilty of. But I know better, I don't think of myself as a humble person and we all know that the moment we do we're being prideful. Nevertheless, that's what we strive for is it not? We strive to become lowly, like Christ. It's an uphill battle too.

You should have known me in High School. Wanting to be noticed, the center of attention. Then my years at Calvary Chapel, seeing Chuck Smith get all that attention and love from so many people. So I tried to climb the ladder there as well. I thought it was to serve God in the "ministry", but looking back I think I just wanted to feel more significant and be loved by multitudes of people for "ministering" to them. But how many pastors "minister" to others and neglect their own families? Too many I'll wager, and that being that their families are too familiar with them. Much easier to minister to those who don't know our faults. Those who think we're such a "man of God".

Anyway, I'm going way too long here, but my point is pride, we all have it and God is in the business of killing it. The more He kills off the better off we are and more fit to serve our Master in His Kingdom. Looking for reasons why God loves us is a step in the wrong direction. It's enough that He says He does and the giving of His Son is the greatest expression of that love. The actual "why" of it is a mystery (other than the fact that God is love) and anyone who thinks God loves them because of something in them, even faith, is hardly on first base in Christianity. Does this ring true to you? It does to me and I think our Theology, our doctrine plays a huge role in how we think through these matters. False doctrine genders pride because it focuses attention on to man and not Christ. Sound doctrine get's our eyes on to Christ and takes our eyes off of ourselves, save for the purpose of self examination.
Again, does this ring true to you mommy or does it sound off base? I'm asking because Tweb is all about discussing Theology and I'm going to be very bold (and perhaps unpopular) and suggest to you that your doctrinal views at given points are giving you trouble in your mind. And that is why you started this thread, because your doctrine is too man centered (don't hate me mommy, I'm saying this out of love, I really am, I might be wrong and I just can't see it, but it's what I believe).

I put up posts on Tweb with the goal of spreading truth. I hope we're all here for that reason. If we're here just to gain friends and have a good time chatting, I think we're missing the boat. I know my Theology is flawed, just where I'm not sure, but I also think my Theology is correct enough to share with others and one of the strong suits of my Theology (properly understood and not caricatured) is to kill off pride. That's what we need. All the fighting that goes on here, when it is mean spirited comes from pride, does it not? We think we're right and we get very upset when others can't see that. I'm not accusing you, I see it in myself. Am I here to win others to Christ or to win arguments? Half the time I think I probably deceive myself on that one and you'll have just have to forgive...I'm a work in progress.

Thanks for listening and sorry for being so long winded, GB