J.P.Holding and the "Harvest" at "the end of the age"

[spiritmech]

Well, let's assume you're right for the moment; I personally don't see why there can't be a gathering at the end of a post-millenial timespan. A pre-millenial perspective puts a big battle at the end of the millenium, so I don't see why a post-millenial interpretation couldn't do the same.

[Mickey]

Well, let's assume you're right for the moment; I personally don't see why there can't be a gathering at the end of a post-millenial timespan.

spiritmech,

We are discussing J.P.Holding's interpretation of the "gathering of the nations",and he places that gathering in AD 70.

A pre-millenial perspective puts a big battle at the end of the millenium, so I don't see why a post-millenial interpretation couldn't do the same.

A post-millennial interpretation can indeed do the same.However,J.P.Holding's "post-millennial" interpretation places this judgment in AD 70.

In Christ,

Mickey

[Argonaut]

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[Mickey]

• Edited by a Moderator •

Argonaut,

Can you give any evidence that the following happened in AD 70:

"He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity"(Mt.13:37-41).

I do not think that "all things" that offend were taken out of the world in AD 70.

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Do you think that the "final" judgment of unbelievers happened in AD 70?If so,how do you explain the fact that the Apostle Paul spoke of a "judgment" for unbelievers at the end of the kingdom (Rev.20:12)?

In Christ,

Mickey

[Ted]

I can’t believe that JPH made such a simple error as to suggest that “all” believe that judgment occurs at death. He cites Hebrews 9:27 for support, but ignores one key word: “after.” Judgment come after death, but the text does not say how long after. This same problem comes in the interpretation of Dan 12:7 and Rev 11. The language is disjunctive.

In Dan 12:7, the “shattering” of the holy people doesn’t come at the end of the “time, times, and half a time.” The language isn’t that specific. It happens some period after, but that period is not specified. The same thing happens in the death of the two witnesses in Rev 11. They are killed some interval after the 42 months, not at its end.

Applied to JPH’s statement, the judgment of the dead is not at the time of their death. It happens some time later, but the interval is not supplied. My objection to his position is sufficient proof that “all” do not believe it.

The rest of you have a real problem. You are assuming definitions of “judging,” but are not supplying the definition. The problem is that there are several possibilities that are consistent with both the Greek and the context of judgment passages.

1. Judgment is the final judgment on a person’s saved or lost status.
2. Judgment is the establishment of statutes.
3. Judgment is observation of the course of history, with the occasional intervention in history to cause a given event to happen, such as a local judgment.
4. Judgment is evaluation of the rightness or wrongness of actions.

I think you get the point. This argument is over an undefined term, and therefore no conclusion can be reached.

Ted

[spiritmech]

Point taken, Ted. I've been responding to Mickey's representation of JPH's argument, and there's definitely some confusion there on "judgement." I'll need to go read JPH myself.

[Mickey]

I can’t believe that JPH made such a simple error as to suggest that “all” believe that judgment occurs at death.... Applied to JPH’s statement, the judgment of the dead is not at the time of their death. It happens some time later, but the interval is not supplied. My objection to his position is sufficient proof that “all” do not believe it.

You are quite correct that "all" do not believe it.

The rest of you have a real problem. You are assuming definitions of “judging,” but are not supplying the definition.

The Scriptures speak of a "day" when all unbelievers will be judged,and that "day" is not in regard to when individual unbelievers die:

"In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel"(Ro.2:16).

"Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained"(Acts17:31).

It is not difficlut to find that the "day" will happen at the same time as the "resurrection of damnation"(Jn.5:29)--the "Great White Throne" Judgment:

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works"(Rev.21:11,12).

In Christ,

Mickey