Reincarnation: Karma or Gospel

[Beanieboy]

So, how would you explain the lower classes or Caste - Untouchables?

You claimed that the US is 99% Christian.
Christ said, "If someone asks you to walk a mile, walk two. If they ask for your shirt, offer your coat as well."
He said that whenever you feed the poor, you have fed Christ.
He said that it is more difficult for a wealthy man to enter heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.

So, since this is what christ preached, why are there poor and starving people in the land of plenty? Why are there people who die because they are homeless? Why are there class systems here? The OT talks of one of the sins of Sodom and Gommarah being that it neglected it's poor and elderly while it had plenty.

Explain to me why that can exist in a country that is 99% Christian.

[kofh2u]

shunyadragon

The blank slate is referred to as being born without sin.

KOFHY:
Oh, I see where you are coming from.

Do you belueve we are linked to our own phylogenetic past? I mean, our gene pool is shuffled up among us. If Noah and his wife are a repository of all the genes, we come from a limited membership, rearranged and permutated, and mutated over time, but "we" are at rest in that sea.

Are the sins of the forefathers still in there?

Don't answer. Who really knows?

shunyadragon:
Something like the false concept of original sin.

KOFHY:
Yes. I agree.
The concept presented by Jews and Christian, about Adam/Eve and the tree of The Knowledge of free willing what is good and what may be thought of as bad, they are wrong, indeed.
Where, I ask, is the scripture that explains "original sin." What was it/is it?

[kofh2u]

You claimed that the US is 99% Christian.
Christ said, "If someone asks you to walk a mile, walk two. If they ask for your shirt, offer your coat as well."
He said that whenever you feed the poor, you have fed Christ.
He said that it is more difficult for a wealthy man to enter heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.

So, since this is what christ preached, why are there poor and starving people in the land of plenty? Why are there people who die because they are homeless? Why are there class systems here? The OT talks of one of the sins of Sodom and Gommarah being that it neglected it's poor and elderly while it had plenty.

Explain to me why that can exist in a country that is 99% Christian.

1) 99%?
Professing vs Practising?

2) One good man (Christian) in a 1000? (250M/1000 = 250t?

3) Jesus: "The poor shall always be with you?"

4) Poverty is relative. USA poverty is heaven in Ethiopia.

5) Self destructive behaviors?

[Cyrus of Persia]

1) 99%?
Professing vs Practising?

"Many say to me one day: Lord, Lord..."

3) Jesus: "The poor shall always be with you?"

And He continued: "If you want, you can help them". I see no obstacle why should any Christian not want to help people who are in worser condition than they are. Instead it surprises me if a "christian" is not troubled about such disadvantaged people and then come to church to sing praises.

4) Poverty is relative. USA poverty is heaven in Ethiopia.

Although i don't live in US, i'm pretty sure that the prizes for food, clothes, and "roof" are much higher in US than in Ethiopia. I see interesting thing about US: the country is one of the richest and still the cap between the richest and the poorest is bigger than average. And some people call US a Christian country...


But back to the original post. From some passages in the Bible it seems that during the time of Jesus the belief into reincarnation was relatively common. It was put to death in mainline Christianity when Origin's teaching was condemned by "winners".

[Richbee]

AHHH! We've been over this! The caste system is NOT religious!

Thanks, could quote me the doctrine of reincarnation.

Would you have digital access to the Chandogya Upanishad?

[Richbee]

The doctrine of reincarnation is clearly implied in the Chandogya Upanishad 5.10.8 or 9?) as it declares that those whose conduct is pleasant here will enter a pleasant womb of a Brahman, Kshatriya, or Vaisya; but those of stinking conduct will enter a stinking womb of a dog, swine, or outcast. Thus reincarnation is explained as an ethical consequence of one's actions (karma).

At death the voice goes into the mind, the mind into the breath, the breath into heat, and heat into the highest divinity, the finest essence of truth and soul. Speaking to Svetaketu, the teacher explains that a tree may be struck at the root, the middle, or the top, but it will continue to live if pervaded by the living soul. Yet if the life leaves one branch of it, it dries up; and if it leaves the whole of it, the whole dries up. Then the teacher explains how the soul is the essence of life and does not die, concluding with the repeated refrain that his student thus ought to identify with the
soul.

Truly, indeed, when the living soul leaves it,
this body dies; the living soul does not die.
That which is the subtle essence
this whole world has for its soul.
That is reality (truth). That is the soul.
That you are, Svetaketu.16



Are there more than one source, and what happen's if you're reborn in the womb of a pig?

Can you end up as an egg plant or a carrot?

[Beanieboy]

But back to the original post. From some passages in the Bible it seems that during the time of Jesus the belief into reincarnation was relatively common. It was put to death in mainline Christianity when Origin's teaching was condemned by "winners".

I am always fascinated that people read the bible, and don't process it, or question it, or think about what is being said.

There is a passage where Jesus says to his disciples, "who do you say that I am?" To avoid the question, they answer, "There are those that say that you are Elijah, or one of the prophets."

That suggests reincarnation, but most people read it, and don't think.

Strangely, when I speak to Christians, they say that there can be no reincarnation, because you just get one chance, and reincarnation suggests that you will have many chances. However, those that believe in reincarnation, I have yet to meet one who says, "who cares - I have several other lives to be good..." Instead, they understand that karma applies to this life as well. If you sit and watch TV and eat junk food, you will naturally get lazy, have less energy, and become overweight, which will in turn, effect your health. When dealing with karma, you deal with being present and control your future.

I was talking to a friend once. She asked me why I seemed so content all the time. I told her that I chose to. She told me that it wasn't her choice, because she didn't have plans for Thanksgiving, and it's hard to be alone then. I told her that I have been alone on a holiday that was out of my control, but my choice was: be upset that it isn't what it is OR just accept what it is, and enjoy it. After all, haven't we all been to family gatherings we wished that we could leave? And once I chose to enjoy it, to watch a movie I've really wanted to see, made food I loved, and relaxed, it was very enjoyable.

My friend's mother will say things like, "You're late! I thought you were dead on the highway!" I would answer,"No, sorry. You have to put our plates back on the table..." She was upset about something that didn't even happen, because we were 15 minutes late. Often people are upset about things in the future that never come, or choose to be unhappy at present things that they have no control over.

I often think that people enjoy being unhappy - that they fear the "unbearable lightness of being." We create our own future, and by looking at what we do now, we can see where we will be in 5 or 10 years. That's all karma is.

[Richbee]

I am always fascinated that people read the bible, and don't process it, or question it, or think about what is being said.

There is a passage where Jesus says to his disciples, "who do you say that I am?" To avoid the question, they answer, "There are those that say that you are Elijah, or one of the prophets."

That suggests reincarnation, but most people read it, and don't think.

You have to look at the whole scripture and not take any one verse out of context.

It was said, that John the Baptist was one LIKE Elijah - not literally Ejihah.

See John 9, the man born blind, who sinned the blind man or his parents???

[Cyrus of Persia]

More verses to meditate upon:

Matthew 11:13-14
Matthew 17:10-13
Malachi 4:5
Mark 9:13

Something about Carma:
Matthew 26:52
Galatians 6:7
Matthew 18: 34-35
Revelation 13:10

[Richbee]

More verses to meditate upon:

Matthew 11:13-14
Matthew 17:10-13
Malachi 4:5
Mark 9:13

Something about Carma:
Matthew 26:52
Galatians 6:7
Matthew 18: 34-35
Revelation 13:10

The is no curse of Bad Karma in the Bible.

[Cyrus of Persia]

The is no curse of Bad Karma in the Bible.

IMHO, what makes Christian teaching different from "pure Karma teaching", is the aspect of forgiveness: God is in control of broking the cycle of Karma, if the person repents from his evil deeds.

But i wonder how to interpret the passages: Who slains by the sword, by the sword should he be slain, etc. Not every murderer repents, nor dies by sword. How can God's Word come to pass in such cases. Who will kill the murderers by the sword and when?

[Beanieboy]

IMHO, what makes Christian teaching different from "pure Karma teaching", is the aspect of forgiveness: God is in control of broking the cycle of Karma, if the person repents from his evil deeds.

From my understanding of it, one breaks the cycle of Karma by changing what they do now - "repenting."

If you didn't study in college and partied and got bad grades, and now have a hard time getting a job, no matter how much you are forgiven, it isn't going to change the karma you got yourself into.

Can you change your situation? Sure. But you have to actively decide and change what you do. You can retake classes and study, work hard and get job experience, etc.

But Karma is a long-term thing.

You know the guy that never studied, cheated on his tests, and manipulated his teachers to get good grades? In the short term, you think, " Hey! I'm doing all this work and he's doing better than I am!" But everyone knows that there are longterm reprocussions - such as not learning, but even more serious, becoming lazy, a cheater and liar, learning that manipulatin is the way to get what you want. And all of that will come back to him. People will not trust him, resent him, etc.

And because Karma does not teach Good Karma or Bad Karma, but simply Karma, everyone can be greatful. Are you barely making your bills? Be exceedingly glad and give thanks, because you are learning from it. You can understand the struggles others have. You are learning about your true priorities. You are learning what is important and what is not. Are you disgustingly rich? Be exceedingly glad and thankful, because you have been given a gift, and must decide how to use it. You have been challenged with the threat of materialism, of defining yourself by what you have instead of what you are. Face the challenge.

And that is karma. It simply is, and you do the best you can in the situation.

[Richbee]

IMHO, what makes Christian teaching different from "pure Karma teaching", is the aspect of forgiveness: God is in control of broking the cycle of Karma, if the person repents from his evil deeds.

There is no reincarnation, as it is appointed once for a man to be born, and once to die, and then the judgment day.

Does a pig or dog "know" that they were a stinking human in a previous life?

Does a crippled man "know" the lesson he is suppose to learn from a previous life of bad karma?

[Richbee]

Even reincarnationists admit that the vast majority of humans do not remember their previous lives. Yet how can we learn from our past mistakes if we cannot remember them? We seem to make the same mistakes over and over again. The second chances don’t appear to be doing us very much good. Given the moral failure rate of human history, do we any have reason to hope that we will get it right in a future lifetime? Where is the basis for such optimism?

In cultures such as India, the law of karma has justified not helping the suffering because it is thought that they are working off their bad karma. The lowest social class in India, the Untouchables, have been traditionally viewed as deserving their fate because of actions in previous lives. To help an Untouchable would be like releasing a guilty prisoner who had served but a small portion of his jail term.

According to reincarnation, the innocent do not suffer. All suffering is deserved on the basis of bad karma. The baby born without legs deserved it, as did the woman who was raped. There is no injustice—and no forgiveness. None are innocent, and there is no grace available—only the demands of karma.

Such teaching undercuts the basis for compassion in this life and makes the prospect for future lives less than heavenly for those without a perfect track record. Every wrongdoing will be punished without forgiveness, and no one can help you along the way. This is not good news.

The law of karma is unmerciful, yet the message of Jesus Christ is entirely different. Jesus taught that no one can keep the moral law. The human heart is unclean because of wrong attitudes and actions. Yet he never spoke of the law of karma as a cosmic mechanism assigning rewards and punishments. For Jesus, wrongdoing is an offense against a loving and absolutely good God, who created the universe and each person in it.

Jesus never encouraged anyone to try to build up good karma from lifetime to lifetime in order to find enlightenment. Jesus said, “I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin” (John 8:34). Given the depth of the of human sin, saving oneself through good karma would be like trying to build a ladder out of water.

Jesus spoke of people receiving either eternal reward or eternal punishment according to how they responded to him during their one lifetime on earth (Matthew 25:31-46; see also Hebrews 9:27). He also declared that he would raise the dead at the end of history; those who believed in him would experience life, those who rejected him would be condemned (John 5:24-29). This teaching leaves no room for reincarnation.

But how can someone enslaved to sin find hope if not in reincarnation? How can eternal life be received? If so, how?

Jesus proclaimed that he came into the world “to seek and to save the lost” (Luke 19:10). Through his ministry of teaching, preaching, and healing, he demonstrated a sinless life and the power over death itself by raising the dead. He said about himself, “The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many” (Mark 10:45). He came to touch the untouchables as no one else could. He can do the same today.

Jesus gave his life for humanity by going to the cross to die. The apostle Paul said this about Jesus: “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Cor. 5:21). Jesus also instructed his disciples that his body and blood would be given for the forgiveness of sin (Luke 22:19-20).

Jesus showed his forgiving love even on the blood stained cross. A thief on a cross next to Jesus confessed his sin and asked Jesus to remember him. Jesus responded, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Only faith in Jesus was required for paradise, not lifetime after lifetime of working off bad karma and building up good karma.

Good News or Bad News?

The message of reincarnation is ultimately bad news. You must earn your own salvation through countless lifetimes and no one can help you. The message of Jesus is good news. No, you can’t save yourself. But Jesus left heaven and came to earth to rescue you. He died to pay the just penalty for your sin. He rose from the dead to demonstrate his authority as the Son of God (Rom. 1:4). And he asks you to turn from your old ways to follow him. He said:

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life (John 3:16).

All who believe in him and give their lives to him are freed from the fear of death and the penalty of sin. They can rejoice in these words of Jesus:

I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me, even though they die, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. (John 11:25, 26, NRSV).

[spiritmech]

I don't think reincarnation is bad news. It allows you to not concern yourself about the consequences of having a resurrected body, and allows you to focus on your relationship with others. While I think this is important, it misses an element that Christianity requires: that of the resurrection of the body. There is an element of bodily purity with regards to oneself that isn't immediately obvious with reincarnation.

In addition, if we're to be resurrected like Christ was resurrected, a reincarnational Christianity would end up denying the physical bodily resurrection of Christ. It's not just our soul that gets a new body. Somehow we get the same body, new and improved.

Steve