Reincarnation: Karma or Gospel

[kofh2u]

[QUOTE=Crusader]

Hello Crusader,

I find it is best to throw out man's doctrine and look to the one Teacher within.

The information below on reincarnation is easily found on the internet, so you may be already familiar with it.

I have found that once one understands our beginnings and how we came to be in this world, it is no longer necessary to go on an intellectual search to prove what is or isn't True. One just knows.

I wish you well on your journey...

Vivian, what you posted does not prove that St. Clement of Alexandria, or the others, ever taught anything close to what you are espousing and calling reincarnation. In fact, there is no documentation available to prove your statement, and it is simply another New Age fabrication used to entice the gullible into thinking reincarnation has some Christian basis. The fact is, reincarnation is an eastern notion, and has never been an accepted doctrine in Christianity since it flies in the face of the doctrine of Vicarious Atonement. If we can work out our own karma to rid ourselves of the consequences of sin - Jesus never would have had to go to the cross!

Ha, that would be a direct contradiction, then, of what these people in the Dark Ages thought, the "the doctrine of Vicarious Atonement."

But, even they must admit to at least one coming "reincarnation," I guess.

Rev. 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again (during the Monastic era of Universal Catholicism) until the thousand years (of the Dark Age, 600AD-1600AD) were finished. This is the first resurrection.


But, it still seems clear that the secular understanding of Genetics supports ideas of Christian resurrection and eastern reincarnation to some degree. Neither of these two metaphysical concepts ever had any concrete basis in secular understanding, though.
Both have always requiring total faith in some unclear revival of the dead.

And, the Christian scripture adds another element to the resurrection, namely that there will be no more death at all. nThis is distinctly different from both Karma and any previous Christian suggestion.

This is different because itmakes the idea of resurrection/reincarnation a permanent condition. How? Christian apologists have offered no clue.

Revelation 21:4-5 And God shall wipe away, (in their awakened Unconscious Mind), all tears from their eyes, (for life is a continuum from one generation to the next living generation); and (in genetic memories of prior existences held in our Unconscious Mind) there shall be no more death, neither sorrow (for we, individually, are part of a living continuum of our own pasts), nor crying (for we are happy in these revelations), neither shall there be any more pain (as circumvented by hypnosis today): for the former things (in Modern Homo sapiens life experience) are passed away.
And he, (the ancient, phylogenetic, Collective Unconscious Mind), that sat upon the throne (of the Homoiousian sapiens' brain) said, Behold, (in this way) I make all things (in human experience) new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true (rational, and scientifically feasible) and (worthy of) faithful (belief).

[kofh2u]

Psalm 32:8-9

I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go;
I will guide you with My eye.
Do not be like the horse or like the mule,
Which have no understanding,
Which must be harnessed with bit and bridle,
Else they will not come near you.

Proverbs 4:7

Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom.
Though it cost all you have, get understanding.


vivian

I like your choice in Proverbs.

Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom.

I am reminded that wisdom is similar to creativity. It is hard to just "get." We can not enroll in Wisdom 101, nor would we believe that the professor could actually teach it.

But, scripture seems the embodiment of wisdom, at least, undeniably the Hebrew Wisdom.

In consulting the Bible, applying its Wisdom to our discussion here, I am reminded about Understanding, as that understanding applies to the words of early Christian fathers.

"Their day was in the wrong time."

They had less chance of understanding than perhaps we might.

Sincerity, yes. Above common insights, being closer to the moment of crucifixion, yes.

But there skills, their academics, their world view was restricted, especially emphasized by an enormous lacking in competition. Ancient scholarship being a much rarer comodity in that time, these were smart men among very few to select from, indeed.

But, wisdom lies, so obvious to me, in censoring any authority they might invoke, Clement or Origen.

Their day was in the wrong time.

These were/are hard questions: life after death.

The concept of life after death was intentionally not explicitly revealed to them in scripture. And, the wisdom of Daniel clearly locks up any guess they might have submitted:

Dan. 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words (of the Old Testament), and seal the book (read by many concerned with death and hell), even to (2K4AD), the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, (traveling freely by land, sea, and even air), and knowledge (in the Information Age) shall be increased.

Indeed:
Though it cost all you have, get understanding.

Daniel seems easily understood. Clement et al had qualified guesses, but correct answers explicitly denied them by prophesy of Daniel:

"...seal the book even to the time of the end"...

[Vivian]

Did you read the addendum I made to that quote? The pre-existence Clement was speaking to was "in the eye of God," possibly speaking for God's foreknowledge.

Hello Crusader,

No, I did miss it before.

Eye of God must be referring to His "Senses", but it matters not for Clement goes on to say that we are the Word as such have existed since the beginning.

Before the beginning, there was only One Infinite Spirit. (Do you feel the smiles and tingles in thinking of an Infinite moment before creation when All was simply God enjoying Himself in Perfect Quiesent Bliss?) The One and Only Infinite Spirit had a stirring, a thought, to experience Itself in individualization. And this thought came forth from Him as His Word and is the energy force behind all creation.

Also, Jesus made it very clear to his disciples that no man, not even the Son of Man (in his humanity) knew the day or the hour of Christ's return.

Aye. But Jesus knew that his disciples would be incarnating again and again and again up until the time that Christ returned.

"Without the understanding of reincarnation and karma, you are left with scriptures that just do not add up?" I'm sorry, but I disagree. I find the Scriptures to be a beautiful expression of the mystery of Godliness - coherent, systematic and completely compatible with the received Christian faith.

I know that the above is not exactly the whole truth. For in the Christian religious tradition disagreement over the meaning of scripture is readily accepted.

If it all added up, there would be no disparities in interpretations, just a joining together in the One Absolute Truth.


vivian

[Vivian]

I like your choice in Proverbs.

Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom.

I am reminded that wisdom is similar to creativity. It is hard to just "get." We can not enroll in Wisdom 101, nor would we believe that the professor could actually teach it.

But, scripture seems the embodiment of wisdom, at least, undeniably the Hebrew Wisdom.

In consulting the Bible, applying its Wisdom to our discussion here, I am reminded about Understanding, as that understanding applies to the words of early Christian fathers.

"Their day was in the wrong time."

They had less chance of understanding than perhaps we might.

Sincerity, yes. Above common insights, being closer to the moment of crucifixion, yes.

Wisdom is Divine Love in action.

And like you said, david, it isn't something you get, but something you enter into with an elevated consciousness. For those who are uncomforatble with the word consciousness, may I offer this to you...

If you have a spectrum and on one end is Thinking like Father and on the other end is thinking like a fallen being, it would look like this.

The Father------------------------------------------------------Fallen Man
Unity------------------------------------------------------------Separation
One-------------------------------------------------------------Me

A consciousness elevates when it is lifted out of self focused concerns. The more it expands into unity with All that has been created, the more God-like it is. Thoughts of self are heavy, weighty, dead like. Thoughts of others are light and spirited and full of Life.


The person who keeps himself cleaned of all wrong vibrations produces a powerful uplifting effect on his contemporaries. One moon gives more luster than all the stars; so a mooned soul - one who purely reflects the light of God - can influence the masses much more than the masses influence each other. Thus, individual effort can be even more important than mass karma. One who in every way tries to uplift himself, harmonizing body, mind, and soul with the Divine, creates positive karma not only in his own life, but in his family, neighborhood, country, and world. Hence it is not justified to say, “Thousands of people are misbehaving, so what does it matter if I am, too? “ No! The goodness of one soul may effectively neutralize the mass karma of millions.

Each drop of water contributes to the existence of the ocean. So even if one’s life seems no more than a droplet of water in the sea of humanity, that life can have a significant influence. One who makes himself god-like automatically uplifts countless others on the divine path. One who makes himself evil demotes others from the spiritual plane by a negative effect on their potential weaknesses. He who has reformed himself has reformed thousands; for what one sows in the ether, by the vibrations of his thought and character, others will surely reap. - Yogananda

vivian

[Proteus]

One moon gives more luster than all the stars; so a mooned soul - one who purely reflects the light of God - can influence the masses much more than the masses influence each other. Thus, individual effort can be even more important than mass karma. One who in every way tries to uplift himself, harmonizing body, mind, and soul with the Divine, creates positive karma not only in his own life, but in his family, neighborhood, country, and world. Hence it is not justified to say, “Thousands of people are misbehaving, so what does it matter if I am, too? “ No! The goodness of one soul may effectively neutralize the mass karma of millions.

Each drop of water contributes to the existence of the ocean. So even if one’s life seems no more than a droplet of water in the sea of humanity, that life can have a significant influence. One who makes himself god-like automatically uplifts countless others on the divine path. One who makes himself evil demotes others from the spiritual plane by a negative effect on their potential weaknesses. He who has reformed himself has reformed thousands; for what one sows in the ether, by the vibrations of his thought and character, others will surely reap.[/I] - Yogananda

vivian

Who is Jesus? Was he a man who was "god-like"?

[Proteus]

Hahahaaaaa...

Cultists talking Carl Jung and Genetics.

Or, were you being anti-religion?


Jung said, "the form of the world into which a person is born is already inborn in him, as a virtual image." (Jung, 1953, pg. 188)
An example of the meaning of this was suggested in that an infant is born predisposed to perceive the mother in a certain manner. Assuming that she behaves as we have generally considered mothers should behave, then the babies predisposition will correspond with his reality. The form of an infant's world, "inborn within him" thus determines how he adapts and reacts to his world. Jung was supported by Freud in that Freud predicted our eventual discovery of what he called "Phylogenetic Memory."

Whatever experiences are universal, that is, are repeated, relatively unchanged in every generation, become a part of each individual's personality. Indeed, it makes sense, that the primitive past of human beings becomes the primary base of a person's psyche, directing and influencing current behavior. The Collective Unconscious, then, is the all controlling deposit of ancestral experiences. Including a person's
present personality and the past, with all his own childhood and early
years as well as with the history of the entire species.

Carl Jung was a Nazis until 1945, and a leader of a Sun cult. He boasted of his sexual experiences, and many years later it was discovered that he had seduced his niece, or a cousin.

Now, we shouldn't throw out all of the wisdom of Freud or Jung, just because they were Atheists, or Anti-Christ, but buyer beware.

[Proteus]

What was this thread topic again?

Reincarnation

Throughout human history people have wondered about life after death. Is death the end of existence, an entry into eternity, or an intermission between earthly lives? These questions have intrigued and haunted mortals for the millennia.

Some Eastern religions such as Hinduism teach that the soul reincarnates in many different bodies. Because of the influence of the New Age movement, approximately twenty five percent of Americans now believe in reincarnation. Celebrities such as actress Shirley MacLaine and country singer Willie Nelson believe they have lived before and will live again.

In Eastern religions, reincarnation is connected with the law of karma; it teaches that good deeds from past lives produce rewards in the next life or lives. Bad deeds produce punishments in the next life or lives. The law of karma is understood as an unbending and impersonal rule of the universe. We all get what we deserve. This consoles some who agonize over the apparent injustices in the world. And by working off one’s bad karma over many lifetimes, a person can finally escape the process of rebirth and attain enlightenment.

Can reincarnation realistically offer hope and a sense of justice to a troubled world? Can it answer the nagging problem of death and what lies beyond?

We should take a second look at reincarnation. Even reincarnationists admit that the vast majority of humans do not remember their previous lives.

How can we learn from our past mistakes if we cannot remember them?

In cultures such as India, the law of karma has justified not helping the suffering because it is thought that they are working off their bad karma. The lowest social class (caste) in India, the Untouchables, have been traditionally viewed as deserving their fate because of actions in previous lives. To help an Untouchable would be like releasing a guilty fellon from prison.

According to reincarnation, the innocent do not suffer. All suffering is deserved on the basis of bad karma. The baby born without legs deserved it, as did the woman who was raped. There is no injustice—and no forgiveness. None are innocent, and there is no grace available—only the demands of karma.

Karma or Gospel?

Jesus spoke of people receiving either eternal reward or eternal punishment according to how they responded to him during their one lifetime on earth (Matthew 25:31-46; see also Hebrews 9:27). He also declared that he would raise the dead at the end of history; those who believed in him would experience life, those who rejected him would be condemned (John 5:24-29).

Discuss these two contrasting views and stop and think about an important question. Can we put these ideas about eternal life or "life" after death to the Test? In this lifetime, or will we get another chance - in the next life?

[Vivian]

Who is Jesus? Was he a man who was "god-like"?

Jesus was a son of man - a physical being that came forth from his mother's womb - and he was/is a son of God - meaning that his consciousness was/is One with Christ and as such One with the Father.

He was the Christ manifested or incarnated into this world.


vivian

[kofh2u]

Who is Jesus? Was he a man who was "god-like"?

Sort of.

Christ is/was the next advancement for man, a new species evolving, mentally, into a more full level of Consciousness. In a number of steps, he demonstrated the process for us.

Matt. 17:2 And was transfigured, (becoming totally conscious, even in his Unconscious Mind, the phylogenetic storehouse of our Ancient of ancients), right before
them: and his face did shine as the sun, (as had the face of Moses), and his raiment was white as the light.

[Proteus]

Sort of.

Christ is/was the next advancement for man, a new species evolving, mentally, into a more full level of Consciousness. In a number of steps, he demonstrated the process for us.

Matt. 17:2 And was transfigured, (becoming totally conscious, even in his Unconscious Mind, the phylogenetic storehouse of our Ancient of ancients), right before them: and his face did shine as the sun, (as had the face of Moses), and his raiment was white as the light.

This is New Age rubbish! The Bible doesn't support this false teaching.

Not really heresy, as no Christian believes this or teaches this.

Jesus was born the Son of God, and has never changed and never needed to change or "become totally conscious". Jesus didn't become a god, Jesus always was and is God. "Before Abraham was born I AM" - John 8:58

Where ever you bought this false teaching, you need to go back and get your money back!

[kofh2u]

Proteus:
This is New Age rubbish! The Bible doesn't support this false teaching.

KOFHY: new? New Age?

Rev. 21:1 And I saw a NEW HEAVEN (of Total Consciousness) and a NEW EARTH (from the sociological behaviors resulting) thereafter: for the first heaven (of semi-consciousness) and the first earth (of Paganistic practices) were passed away; and there was no more sea (of unconscious
behavior).

Proteus:
Not really heresy, as no Christian believes this or teaches this.

KOFHY:



Proteus:
Jesus was born the Son of God, and has never changed and never needed to change or "become totally conscious".

KOFHY:
What was his Transfiguration?

Proteus:
Jesus didn't become a god, Jesus always was and is God. "Before Abraham was born I AM" - John 8:58

KOFHY:
True.

Proteus:
Where ever you bought this false teaching, you need to go back and get your money back!

KOFHY:
It is the same teaching understandable in terms of today.

Revelation 21:4-5 And God shall wipe away, (in their awakened Unconscious Mind), all tears from their eyes, (for life is a continuum from one generation to the next living generation); and (in genetic memories of prior existences held in our Unconscious Mind) there shall be no more death, neither sorrow (for we, individually, are part of a living continuum of our own pasts), nor crying (for we are happy in these revelations), neither shall there be any more pain (as circumvented by hypnosis today): for the former things (in Modern Homo sapiens life experience) are passed away.
And he, (the ancient, phylogenetic, Collective Unconscious Mind), that sat upon the throne (of the Homoiousian sapiens' brain) said, Behold, (in this way) I make all things (in human experience) new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true (rational, and scientifically feasible) and (worthy of) faithful (belief).

[Proteus]

Proteus:
This is New Age rubbish! The Bible doesn't support this false teaching.

KOFHY: new? New Age?

Rev. 21:1 And I saw a NEW HEAVEN (of Total Consciousness) and a NEW EARTH (from the sociological behaviors resulting) thereafter: for the first heaven (of semi-consciousness) and the first earth (of Paganistic practices) were passed away; and there was no more sea (of unconscious
behavior).

Proteus:
Not really heresy, as no Christian believes this or teaches this.

KOFHY:



Proteus:
Jesus was born the Son of God, and has never changed and never needed to change or "become totally conscious".

KOFHY:
What was his Transfiguration?

Proteus:
Jesus didn't become a god, Jesus always was and is God. "Before Abraham was born I AM" - John 8:58

KOFHY:
True.

Proteus:
Where ever you bought this false teaching, you need to go back and get your money back!

KOFHY:
It is the same teaching understandable in terms of today.

Revelation 21:4-5 And God shall wipe away, (in their awakened Unconscious Mind), all tears from their eyes, (for life is a continuum from one generation to the next living generation); and (in genetic memories of prior existences held in our Unconscious Mind) there shall be no more death, neither sorrow (for we, individually, are part of a living continuum of our own pasts), nor crying (for we are happy in these revelations), neither shall there be any more pain (as circumvented by hypnosis today): for the former things (in Modern Homo sapiens life experience) are passed away.

And he, (the ancient, phylogenetic, Collective Unconscious Mind), that sat upon the throne (of the Homoiousian sapiens' brain) said, Behold, (in this way) I make all things (in human experience) new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true (rational, and scientifically feasible) and (worthy of) faithful (belief).

All false again! When we get to heaven we will have new bodies!

Not really a "new consciousness" but a whole new reality, clear of the dark glass or dim view.

Can you get your money back on those false teachings?

[kofh2u]

All false again! When we get to heaven we will have new bodies!

Not really a "new consciousness" but a whole new reality, clear of the dark glass or dim view.

Can you get your money back on those false teachings?

Analyze this and see if it isn't both, scriptural and a 21st century way of saying the same thing you have in mind but in words of days and people in the past:

Rev. 2:7 He that hath an ear, (an open mind), let him hear (and contemplate) what the (seven fold) Spirit, (the Human Psyche'), saith unto the (seven) churches, (the seven Eric Ericson passages of the socially evolving body of christianity: [Rev 1:20]);

To him that overcometh, (who sublimates beyond the common scriptural misunderstandings: [Rev 3:18]), will I give to eat (eternally) of the (biological) tree of (animal and plant) life, which is in the midst of the (creation's) paradise (of living creatures here on earth) of (the) God (of the Living).

Rev. 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, (the New Jerusalem: [Rev 21:16]), and on either side of the river (of the massive ensuing Homoiousian sapiens evolution), was there the (biological) tree of (animal and plant) life, which bare twelve manner of (human) fruits, (one for each of man's twelve Jungian Functional Psychological Thinking perspectives: [Rev 21:12], each a distinct philosophical outlook or Myers/Briggs predisposition), and yielded her fruit (of these twelve new types of evolving creatures, Homoiousian sapiens), every month (in accord with the human menstral cycle): and the (unfolding) leaves of (the ensuing generations of) the tree (of biological life) were for the healing of the nations, (the geo-political and religious social entities).

Rev. 22:14 Blessed are they that do his (two) commandments: ([Matt 22:40], to love what is becoming, what is to live with men: [Zech. 12:8], YHVH: [Rev 21:22-23], and to love all men, too, who, themselves, are becoming Homoiousians: [1Co 15:52]), that they may have right to (evolve within) the (ever growing biological) tree of life, and may enter in, (awakening in a fuller Consciousness) through the gates (of the ancient, genetically reproduced, Collective Unconscious Mind within men which was, before even Abraham was: [John 8:58]), into (the New Jerusalem), the city (of the new human philosophical paradigm which is modeled geometrically as a cube: [Rev 21:16]).

[Richbee]

Good News or Bad News?

The message of reincarnation is ultimately bad news. You must earn your own salvation through countless lifetimes and no one can help you. The message of Jesus is good news. No, you can’t save yourself. But Jesus left heaven and came to earth to rescue you. He died to pay the just penalty for your sin. He rose from the dead to demonstrate his authority as the Son of God (Rom. 1:4). And he asks you to turn from your old ways to follow him. He said:

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life (John 3:16).

All who believe in him and give their lives to him are freed from the fear of death and the penalty of sin. They can rejoice in these words of Jesus:

I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me, even though they die, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. (John 11:25, 26, NRSV).