Originally posted by Tassman
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Philosophy 201 Guidelines
Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Is "Why is there something rather than nothing?" a legitimate question?
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βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostBut why does one assume that the “divine” exists in the first place, especially when Apophatic theology is unwilling to ascribe definite properties to such a concept?Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostI do believe in the numinous apart from any thematized religious beliefs and across different cultural or communal frameworks. Despite my background and professional academic training, I am actually not that religious of a person. As a novice (literally a novice in novitiate), I remember telling people that I had been cured of religion. But there's not very far anyone can go from God, regardless of whether he is consciously acknowledged or not. For me, the Eucharist is not about choral music or any of that, but one person reaching out over the centuries through intimate disciples to people who admire his teachings and want to share in his self-sacrifice and witness to the truth. I have many friends who are priests and even a small celebration of a couple of people or a small goup of committed Christians sharing in the source of their communion with each other and God. That is very thematized, obviously, but God is by no means limited to religious or even spiritual realm. He is, in a sense, incarnated in the whole world, in whom we live, move, and have our being, so to speak.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe Baha'i view of God is predominately Apophatic, because God cannot be defined by doctrine, dogma, such as the Trinity, nor specific name God from the human perspective. The names of the attributes of God are the names of God, such as, Justice, Compassion, and Glory.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostAll of which I can relate to but still don’t feel that the concept of God need be invoked. I respect your view that God is at the core of it all but again come back to the question of why one assumes that the “divine” exists in the first place. Clearly you think differently.
As per robrecht, I respect your views and identify with them to a large extent, but nevertheless see no need to invoke the concept of God.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostI do not disagree from a purely intellectual point of view in that I do not think that the existence of God can be proven, at least not to the satisfaction of everyone, regardless of metaphysical worldview and presuppositions. This is why, in speaking of my own experience and beliefs, I speak of a kind of intuition.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostIf my belief had to be based on 'a kind of intuition' I would find it hard to believe in any god(s).βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostWhy, wouldn't you trust your intuition?Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post. . . because by the evidence too man people over the eons conclude something different based on 'intuition.'
One of the problems I see with claiming ones reasons for believing in God are something more definitive than intuitive, faith approaches to reality, partly subjective, partly mythical (in a positive sense) and largely apophatic, is that it implies an overly negative judgment of those who do not share your beliefs or accept your reasons for belief. Is Tassman, for example, not as intelligent as you? Is he more biased than you? If he were exposed to an unendless supply of all your thoughts on the matter, would he necessarily agree with all of your conclusions? Thus a Baha'i believer might consider 'the Jews accursed, wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and false imaginings, still expecting that the idol of her own handiwork will appear with such signs as she herself hath conceived! Thus will Baha'is believe that God hath laid hold of them for their sins, hath extinguished in them the spirit of faith, and tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire'.
I think God is beyond all of our ideas of him, something more than we can know or express. The atheist approach is beneficial to theists who recognize that God is more than we can know or express; and those who do not share our beliefs need not be put in such a negative light.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostI think God is beyond all of our ideas of him, something more than we can know or express.
Originally posted by robrechthe atheist approach is beneficial to theists who recognize that God is more than we can know or express; and those who do not share our beliefs need not be put in such a negative light....>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostOne who is aware of the many defective intuitions of the past is perhaps better able to avoid defective intuitions in the present. Perhaps. I don't really know.
One of the problems I see with claiming ones reasons for believing in God are something more definitive than intuitive, faith approaches to reality, partly subjective, partly mythical (in a positive sense) and largely apophatic, is that it implies an overly negative judgment of those who do not share your beliefs or accept your reasons for belief. Is Tassman, for example, not as intelligent as you? Is he more biased than you? If he were exposed to an unendless supply of all your thoughts on the matter, would he necessarily agree with all of your conclusions? Thus a Baha'i believer might consider 'the Jews accursed, wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and false imaginings, still expecting that the idol of her own handiwork will appear with such signs as she herself hath conceived! Thus will Baha'is believe that God hath laid hold of them for their sins, hath extinguished in them the spirit of faith, and tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire'.
I think God is beyond all of our ideas of him, something more than we can know or express. The atheist approach is beneficial to theists who recognize that God is more than we can know or express; and those who do not share our beliefs need not be put in such a negative light.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI never said I believe that my belief in God is more definitive then 'intuition.' At present I am only pointing out the 'egocentric' weakness of relying on 'intuition' to justify the belief in the existence of God.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostYou said, "If my belief had to be based on 'a kind of intuition' I would find it hard to believe in any god(s)." Does this mean your belief is indeed also based on a kind of intuition and that you therfefore do indeed find it hard to believe in God, or that your belief is based on something more than intuition? Or something different?
My belief system is more fluid then most and always open to question and change. My participation on Tweb is a part of this quest for more knowledge as what people believe and why.
That is why everything is in pencil, because in reality I do not know.Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-24-2014, 11:07 AM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe problem is your use of 'more definitive.' No, the basis of my belief is not necessarily ' more definitive.' Personal intuition would be a questionable egocentric way to base ones belief in God. Actually me belief in God is based more on an 'Independent Investigation of knowledge' outside my own intuition or personal preferences of belief.
My belief system is more fluid then most and always open to question and change. My participation on Tweb is a part of this quest for more knowledge as what people believe and why.
That is why everything is in pencil, because in reality I do not know.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostSo when you say that your beliefs are based on an 'Independent Investigation of knowledge' outside my own intuition or personal preferences of belief, does that imply that anyone else who undertakes an 'independent investigation of knowledge outside their own intuition or personal preferences of belief' will or at least should come to the same conclusions?Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostConsidering the fallible nature of humans, No. Nonetheless I believe it works better to make these assumptions concerning the fallible questionable nature of individual 'intuition' as way to justify one's belief in God or even to justify one's own choice of belief or understand the nature of God.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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