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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Is "Why is there something rather than nothing?" a legitimate question?

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  • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    What about all of fiction? Kryptonians are not real things also!
    They are things, though not real things. They are not nothing, being at the very least imaginary. We make these distinctions. Do we not?
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      They are things, though not real things. They are not nothing, being at the very least imaginary. We make these distinctions. Do we not?
      I was agreeing with you.... Just wanted to give more examples...
      If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
        I was agreeing with you.... Just wanted to give more examples...
        OK.

        The reality of imaginary things are on the pages of the writing or in the minds of the persons who imagine it. Just adding how non existent things have an existence. Now days in the shows we watch with special effects to make them look real.
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
          OK.

          The reality of imaginary things are on the pages of the writing or in the minds of the persons who imagine it. Just adding how non existent things have an existence. Now days in the shows we watch with special effects to make them look real.
          This could very well include the belief in God(s).
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            This could very well include the belief in God(s).
            Exactly Shunya. If God or anything else exists only as an imagination in the minds of the persons who imagine it, then he/she/it doesn't exist as a thing in itself.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
              Exactly Shunya. If God or anything else exists only as an imagination in the minds of the persons who imagine it, then he/she/it doesn't exist as a thing in itself.
              Then those imagined entities are just that, not real.

              Now there are real things.

              I am persuaded that there could never have been nothingness, therefore there has always been something, and that something is the self existent existence which all other existence, Natural Law, etc. are contingent upon.
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                Then those imagined entities are just that, not real.

                Now there are real things.

                I am persuaded that there could never have been nothingness, therefore there has always been something, and that something is the self existent existence which all other existence, Natural Law, etc. are contingent upon.
                Agreed, but if "nothingness" is naught but an abstract concept, if it exists only in the mind as an imagination, if it is not real, then that self existing existence, as well as all those particulars that are contingent upon it, would need be all of one and the same substance, thus they are all one and the same thing.
                Last edited by JimL; 01-31-2015, 07:19 AM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  Agreed, but if "nothingness" is naught but an abstract concept, if it exists only in the mind as an imagination, if it is not real, then that self existing existence, as well as all those particulars that are contingent upon it, would need be all of one and the same substance, thus they are all one and the same thing.
                  How do you come to this conclusion? It does not make sense [to me]. It sounds like [to me] to argue, there is a box, and anything in the box is also the box.
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                    How do you come to this conclusion? It does not make sense [to me]. It sounds like [to me] to argue, there is a box, and anything in the box is also the box.
                    What about the quantum "foam" + gravions?
                    The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                    [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      How do you come to this conclusion? It does not make sense [to me]. It sounds like [to me] to argue, there is a box, and anything in the box is also the box.
                      Because, if as you agree, that there is no such thing as nothingness, then anything that exists must exist within and hence be of the same substance of that which always was. There is no box encapsulating a nothingness in which other things, distinct things, come into existence, else your idea that there is no such thing as nothingness would be contradicted. If, as you seem to believe, that from nothing, nothing comes, then whatever comes into existence must needs come from that which always was, and to come from that which always was means that it is of one and the same substance as that which always was.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        Then those imagined entities are just that, not real.
                        OK

                        Now there are real things.
                        True, there are many 'things' we can objectively verify that they are 'real' things.

                        I am persuaded that there could never have been nothingness, therefore there has always been something,
                        Not hard to be persuaded to believe this. In general pretty much all scientists, atheists, agnostics would agree with you

                        . . . and that something is the self existent existence which all other existence, Natural Law, etc. are contingent upon.
                        This is an assertion, and a statement of faith of what you believe. I also believe in God, but this particular argument leads nowhere.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          . . . and that something is the self existent existence which all other existence, Natural Law, etc. are contingent upon.
                          This is an assertion, and a statement of faith of what you believe. I also believe in God, but this particular argument leads nowhere.
                          hmm. . . So self existence is an assertion. So is your statement. Caused existence is contingent. Only self existence can be contingent on nothing else. Even your Natural Law is contingent on it existing. Nothing can precede self existent existence. All arguments presume existence.
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            hmm. . . So self existence is an assertion. So is your statement. Caused existence is contingent. Only self existence can be contingent on nothing else. Even your Natural Law is contingent on it existing. Nothing can precede self existent existence. All arguments presume existence.
                            The assertion is that there is more than only one substance, that of an uncaused nature and that of a caused nature. If they are of the same substance then there is no distinction to be made between the two, between the caused and the uncaused, they are one and the same thing. It is true that uncaused existence is eternal with respect to itself, but caused existences are also eternal with respect to their cause, and if, as you seem to believe, that there is no such thing as nothingness, then the caused and the uncaused are one and the same.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              hmm. . . So self existence is an assertion. So is your statement. Caused existence is contingent. Only self existence can be contingent on nothing else. Even your Natural Law is contingent on it existing. Nothing can precede self existent existence. All arguments presume existence.
                              Actually you could include God as contingent on God existing. For the sake of argument from the secular perspective there is no reason not to believe nothing preceded Natural Law and it is eternal and self-existent.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                Actually you could include God as contingent on God existing.
                                Read, "Actually you could included 'Existence' as contingent on 'Existence' existing."


                                For the sake of argument from the secular perspective there is no reason not to believe nothing preceded Natural Law and it is eternal and self-existent.
                                Then Natural Law is then fundamentally the "self existent existence."

                                Now it is either "self existent" or contingent on the "self existent." The only thing that is self existent is itself. So unless Natural Law is identified as the "self existent existence" it is not "self existent."
                                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                                Comment

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