Defend a literal or non literal Adam here

[maudman]

We can't help but defend the literal View of Adam in the Garden cause if you don't Christ could not be the Son of Man(et ha adam). We are only challenged in the literal view if our Adam in the current one is false.
If your paradigm of adam and the Garden are challenged by the Sciences then your View of Genesis just may be incorrect for the most part incomplete.

Me thinks people need to really read the text one verse at a time and then stop and think for a long time and you will see that what most of us where taught from our youth is word of mouth and isn't doctrinal at all. To add another problem that comes from the translations of the inspired word of God and what it can do to our understanding because people translate to what they believe as an over all sceme and not the truth of the text itself.

If you want to believe that Adam is the first Man. There is a bible translated to say just what you want to believe. As people began to challenge previous translations because they left dought to what is meant then translators rewrote to either to further cement previously held beliefs or to challenge previously held views.

Peace to all.

[A Beautiful Truth]

We can't help but defend the literal View of Adam in the Garden cause if you don't Christ could not be the Son of Man(et ha adam).

Please explain. I believe the evidence for Christ--His life, His deity, His resurrection, is all very strong historically and prophetically. How would a metaphorical Adam change this?

[Lion]

Either the Bible was inspired by God and is a true record of creation and th3e fall, or it is just a fable. If it is true, we ought to believe its message. Christ spoke of the days of Noah

Luke 17:26 “And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:
Luke 17:27 they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
Luke 17:28 “It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building;
Luke 17:29 but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
Luke 17:30 “It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.

1Cor. 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

If Christ the son of God believed the story of the flood, and He was the creator, the God who was there, we ought to believe the story. The Bible is true, otherwise it's not worth the paper it is printed on. It is not just a bunch of folk tales. Writing has been known since very early in human history.

[Jack777]

If Adam is a made-up pretend story or a metaphor, then the whole thing is silly.

[A Beautiful Truth]

Either the Bible was inspired by God and is a true record of creation and th3e fall, or it is just a fable.

If Adam is a made-up pretend story or a metaphor, then the whole thing is silly.

Does something need to be literal in order to be true?

[Abigail]

Does something need to be literal in order to be true?

Well if Adam and eve didnt actually live in the garden and fall then that is something that is not really true to be sure.

[Jack777]

There would actually have to be a person Adam for the person Adam to be the person Adam.

[A Beautiful Truth]

Do you drink Christ's blood?

[Jack777]

No, of course not, but I understand what you are saying. There is a huge difference in those two conceptual models to compare and contrast without dissembling.

[A Beautiful Truth]

Please explain.

[Lion]

Carleen, we drink wine as a SYMBOL of Christ's blood, not the actual blood. Christ was the creator. He came in the flesh as a man and died for our sins.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

If Jesus, the creator who made all things, spoke of Noah, who built the ark saying,
Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luke 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

God came to Abraham and talked with him.

Gen. 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
Gen. 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
Gen. 18:22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
Gen. 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
Gen. 18:24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
Gen. 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
Gen. 18:26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
Gen. 18:27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:
Gen. 18:28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.
Gen. 18:29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty’s sake.
Gen. 18:30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.
Gen. 18:31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty’s sake.
Gen. 18:32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten’s sake.
Gen. 18:33 And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

God Himself was talking with Abraham, in person. Jesus was God. He mentioned Sodom.

Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luke 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

God is real, He created a real Adam. Noah was real. Jesus, God in the flesh testified of his reality. If you refuse to believe Jesus there is no hope.

[rogero]

Carleen, we drink wine as a SYMBOL of Christ's blood, not the actual blood. Christ was the creator. He came in the flesh as a man and died for our sins.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

If Jesus, the creator who made all things, spoke of Noah, who built the ark saying,
Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luke 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

God came to Abraham and talked with him.

Gen. 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
Gen. 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
Gen. 18:22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
Gen. 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
Gen. 18:24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
Gen. 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
Gen. 18:26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
Gen. 18:27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:
Gen. 18:28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.
Gen. 18:29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty’s sake.
Gen. 18:30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.
Gen. 18:31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty’s sake.
Gen. 18:32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten’s sake.
Gen. 18:33 And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

God Himself was talking with Abraham, in person. Jesus was God. He mentioned Sodom.

Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luke 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

God is real, He created a real Adam. Noah was real. Jesus, God in the flesh testified of his reality. If you refuse to believe Jesus there is no hope.

yea but though, yea but though... Do ya think that KJV16111 makes the whole thing sound more profound?

That you would conflate an historical Jesus with a Bronze Age story related and redacted to a nomadic band of Mesopotamian foragers is beyond my comprehension. It's all on one level for you, and that's fine for you, but embarassing for me. Here's some facts for you to chew on:

1) Earth is billions of years old -- not several tens of thousands. This is from verifiable empiriical evidence.

2) There is no empirical geological evidence of a global Flood as per the Noahic account. Can you understand that metaphor can be just as "true" as historical narrative? Check out the current debate between oil geophysicist Glennn Morton and textile expert Dave Tyler to see the most current views on this issue.

3) None of this empirical evidence for an old Earth and Cosmos has the slightest wit of influence on the historical Christ and His ministry. That you insist on conflating your fundamentalist origins view with the historicity and propitation of the Christ as the "second Adam" does more of a disservice to the Gospel message than you could ever hope to achieve by preaching to a dimunitive group of fideistic Christians who have no training in science and can't separate spiritual truth from the mischaracterizations of both nature and scripture from a small group of misinformed rhetoricians who can't tell evidence from assumption.

God bless you in your search for Truth. My Dad, who passed away in 1986 and would be 91 years old now, held on to a 6Ka/6/24hr day view, but at least accepted that perhaps there was a gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 that would allow for the billions of years that we observe in the Cosmos. Could you at least accept this much?

In God's Peace,

Roger

[maudman]

I had asked:
To which you repied:


So mankind could have evolved and then God made this Adam special and made him immortal?



Literal Adam in a metaphorical Garden? How do you know Adam is literal? Could be metaphorical as well? Why or why not, and how do you know?

Yes mankind evolved! and then Yahweh take this man who is an Incarnated being, a Son of God, a Beney Elohim, the literal Offspring of Yahweh. Who had shouted for Joy at the creation in the Book of Job and made him a superintendent of the Garden.

Your approach to metaphors needs some tweaking, Metaphors are not Imaginary descriptives that relate to some spiritual concept. A Metaphor simply is the borrowing of an object and using the attributes to create perspective, appending that object and its attributes to another object that is literal.

Adam is an Incarnated being who posseses the Holy Spirit. None of the other peoples in the garden have the holy spirit and the metaphors are used to convey that they are on a lower plain the man Et ha adam and Adam is the tender or the mediator of Yahweh to the other peoples he's not a dirt farmer But a keeper of souls, the plants are the peoples who are baring fruit in the Garden. NOw this is a theme through out the scriptures I don't think I should have to Give any examples but if I need to I will. Adam is a literal Being To which you might append a Metaphor like trees,beast of the field, and such were appended to mankind in general in genesis. He is not a metaphor for something else.

And another thing I don't say something is metaphorical cause it suites me. I say it cause I can prove it with the bible. I just haven't shown you those things or verses. The bible tells us what is a a metaphor if you have to work to make one then your reaching.

[Jack777]

I have to add my 2 cents worth here.

Becuz the earth is 1.5 billion years old or whatever does not remove the fact that the Bible is true. I am convinced there are at least three flood epochs of "Biblical" proportions based on actual scientific research, the last the Flood of Noah, none of which account for the rock record, only the alluvial record. I am well aware of Geology but science does not preclude the truth of Scripture. I am not a YEC. I happen to know within a few hundred millions of years how old the earth is for instance. Evolution is simply not fact and will increasingly prove to be faulty. I am a palyno-paleontologist and the evidence is not there for evolution as it is touted. Evolution is a shill in some ways. Having said all of that the Bible is literally true. I just do not happen to see Creation from the YEC perspective as it is not there to see.

[Lion]

The evolutionary geologists would like us to THINK the earth is billions of years old but they can't PROVE IT. So we are left with an eye witness report of what happened, and an inspired record. If people choose not to believe it, that's their funeral, not mine. There are much later versions that say essentially the same words. People can sneer at the word but it will stand to condemn you if you don't heed its word.

Charleen asked in her first post
I have been so curious to have input by people who know something of ANE culture. Is it fair to demand a literal interpretation of Genesis? Would the hearers demanded it or seen the symbolic nature of it? The woman created at man's side (being equal with the man), the talking snake, the Tree of Life, (which is also mentioned in the apocalyptic book of Revelation) among other symbolic aspects, leads me to believe that the book is to be taken symbolically.

But if it is to be taken symbolically, then what of certain teachings like the Fall? I believe these can be answered.

I would like those who believe in a non-literal Adam to defend their position here.

How do you address:

1) The Fall

2) The Geneologies

3) When do you take up non-symbolic history?
-------------------
It is NOT SYMOLICAL. IT IS LITERAL.
THE FALL REALLY HAPPENED. SATAN USED THE SNAKE AS A MEDIUM TO DECIEVE EVE.
'
I was reading today an article that explains why some of the ancient worship practices and laws were so similar. Aside from the obvious differences of multiple gods that were warring against each other there are many simlarities in the treatment of slaves. One big difference is in the fertility cult and the worship of phallic symbols. Male sex organ worship. We read in the bible of a grove. That was the reference to phallic symbols. India has that kind of worship today.

The author was able to point out certain simlarities beteen Hebrew and pagan worship that point to a common heritage. When Noah left the ark he offered animal sacrifices. No doubt his sons carried on the ceremonies of their father.

So there you have the common heritage. I hope that answers some of your questions.