Abraham was a Muslim, according to the Koran

[Jude3b]

The Koran teaches that Abraham was not a Jew but a Muslim. "No; Abraham in truth was not a Jew, neither a Christian; but he was a Muslim..."

But the Jews consider Abraham a Jew.

The Christians consider Abraham a Jew.

Jesus Christ himself considered Abraham a Jew.

All the world considers Abraham a Jew - everyone except Muslims and their book - the Koran.

How can anyone believe that the Koran is reliable or that it is the Word of God?

[Conductor42]

Abraham was not a Jew in the strict sense of the word. He was rather the forefather of Jews. Can you cite a scripture calling him a Jew?

[kiwimac]

As I understand it Abraham was NOT a Jew. He was their Spiritual ancestor. As for the Qu'ran. The word Muslim means "one who submits themselves to God." I would have considered that a textbook definition of Abraham.

Kiwimac

[Jude3b]

Abraham was not a Jew in the strict sense of the word. He was rather the forefather of Jews. Can you cite a scripture calling him a Jew?

Don't strain at a nat!

Isaiah 41:8;


The statement was that the Jews consider Abraham to be a Jew:
"And he said, "men and brethren and fathers, listen: The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Haran," (Acts 7:2)

[BlackOpal12]

One more time, Jude3b.

Short rehash: "Muslim" in this context means "One submitting to God."
Abraham submitted to the will of God - hence, Muslim.

Get it?
How about now?
Do I need to say it 40 or 50 more times?
Or will you stop with this nonsense and chicanery now, and save us all the agitation at your pointless meanderings?

[Krusader]

Muslim means someone submitting to "Allah." Allah was the pre-Islamic moon-related deity. Abraham never submitted to this false god, but was called out of Ur by YHWH, who has no relationship whatsoever to Mohammed's Allah.

[Kristian Joense]

Muslim means someone submitting to "Allah." Allah was the pre-Islamic moon-related deity. Abraham never submitted to this false god, but was called out of Ur by YHWH, who has no relationship whatsoever to Mohammed's Allah.

Allah, simply means God in Arabic and is also used in the arabic translation(s?) ot the Bible.

If Allah God, becuase of some "pre-Islamic moon-reatead deity", is irrelevant.

[BlackOpal12]

Muslim means someone submitting to "Allah." Allah was the pre-Islamic moon-related deity. Abraham never submitted to this false god, but was called out of Ur by YHWH, who has no relationship whatsoever to Mohammed's Allah.

Can you prove this?
Where is your imperical evidence?
I could very well point out that the Jewish tribes were polytheistic, and assume thereby that the very "moon-god" you refer to is, in fact, the same as the Judeo-Christian god, post-monotheistic transformation.

The burden of proof is yours on the claim of Allah's supposed illegitimacy - lets see you substantiate it.

[Krusader]

Can you prove this?
Where is your imperical evidence?
I could very well point out that the Jewish tribes were polytheistic, and assume thereby that the very "moon-god" you refer to is, in fact, the same as the Judeo-Christian god, post-monotheistic transformation.

The burden of proof is yours on the claim of Allah's supposed illegitimacy - lets see you substantiate it.

I won't give you "imperical" evidence, but empirical nevertheless.

Go to: http://muhammadfarms.com/Grea%20Debate.htm

[Krusader]

Make that:

http://muhammadfarms.com/Great%20Debate.htm

[BlackOpal12]

Make that:

http://muhammadfarms.com/Great%20Debate.htm

In this essay, it is made evident that the writer believes Allah to be a foreshortened version of the word "al-ilah," translated, "the god." It then expounds that Muhammad told the worshippers of the Moon God that his version of Allah was the true one, of which they worshipped an incarnation. This is the basis of your accusation? That Muhammad used a pre-existant belief to coerce and then convert other persons into his belief system?

This is the same method used by Christianity for centuries - see: Chine, Japan, Africa. Identifying the monotheistic diety with an understood extant diety does not revoke the religious legitimacy of that monotheistic "God." Its a simple conversion technique.

Why do you think the most common image of the Christian god looks so much like Jupiter? Because Jupiter was the "king of gods," and that's how the Christians portrayed him. Why do you think that Christian missionaries called their God "t'ein" in China? Because that's what the Chinese knew. This is not even a legitimate attempt to argue on your part, Crusader. This is simple conversion tactics, and if they invalidate Islam, then they also invalidate Christianity.

[Krusader]

In this essay, it is made evident that the writer believes Allah to be a foreshortened version of the word "al-ilah," translated, "the god." It then expounds that Muhammad told the worshippers of the Moon God that his version of Allah was the true one, of which they worshipped an incarnation. This is the basis of your accusation? That Muhammad used a pre-existant belief to coerce and then convert other persons into his belief system?

This is the same method used by Christianity for centuries - see: Chine, Japan, Africa. Identifying the monotheistic diety with an understood extant diety does not revoke the religious legitimacy of that monotheistic "God." Its a simple conversion technique.

Why do you think the most common image of the Christian god looks so much like Jupiter? Because Jupiter was the "king of gods," and that's how the Christians portrayed him. Why do you think that Christian missionaries called their God "t'ein" in China? Because that's what the Chinese knew. This is not even a legitimate attempt to argue on your part, Crusader. This is simple conversion tactics, and if they invalidate Islam, then they also invalidate Christianity.

Mohammed's father was named Abdullah, meaning "servant of allah." Mohammed's tribal allegiance was to this moon god, prior to his claiming to receive revelations of the Quran. By taking the idol, allah, and claiming that he is the only god, Mohammed simply imposed monoidolatry - worship of one god. This is not monotheism, worship of one God.

Mohammed's relgioin was a syncritistic blend of Judaism, Christianity and various Arabian folk religions. The Ka'ba, itself, was a pre-Islamic shrine used to house Arabian idols. It had nothing to do with Abraham or Ishmael. In fact, God instructed Abraham to go east, not west (see the Bible).

Mohammed had only a smattering of knowledge regarding Christianity, and this is why he was confused about such essential Christian doctrine as the Trinity (thinking it was the Father, Son and Mary) for instance.

Islam is an invented religion - and there is no empirical evidence that Mohammed ever saw an angel or received revelations. He was a petty dictator that made his fortune by having his followers attack caravans. He used his revelations to justify his rather insatiable urge for sexual encounters with young women (even children), and duped his followers into believing he was hearing directly from the moon god, Allah.

Mohammed's is entombed in Medina. Where is the Lord Jesus' body?

[kiwimac]

There is NO, repeat NO empirical evidence that 'Allah' was a pre-Islamic Moon God.

This rubbish all stems from the balderdash that Robert Morley wrote. This theory of his has been debunked by both religious and secular paleo-linguists and archaeologists.

Kiwimac

[BlackOpal12]

Alright, my meager-minded friend, lets try this again.

Mohammed's father was named Abdullah, meaning "servant of allah."

"Servant to god" - wow... how original. What does this tell us? Oh, wait... nothing. The word "God" existed before the concept of "One God" - get over yourself.

Mohammed's tribal allegiance was to this moon god, prior to his claiming to receive revelations of the Quran. By taking the idol, allah, and claiming that he is the only god, Mohammed simply imposed monoidolatry - worship of one god. This is not monotheism, worship of one God.

So... let me check this again. "You shall have no other gods before me" is monotheism, i.e. Judaism and Christianity, but "You shall have no other gods before Allah" is monoidolatry. Interesting. Wait, no... duplicituous. That was what I was thinking.

Mohammed's relgioin was a syncritistic blend of Judaism, Christianity and various Arabian folk religions. The Ka'ba, itself, was a pre-Islamic shrine used to house Arabian idols. It had nothing to do with Abraham or Ishmael. In fact, God instructed Abraham to go east, not west (see the Bible).

Actually, the Ka'ba is the "House of the Rock" wherein set the rock upon which Daniel is said to have laid his head around the time he wrestled with Gabriel - you know, the Angel of the Lord. Nobody said the Ka'ba had anything to do with Abraham. Considering that Islam is supposed to be the follow-up to Judaism and Christianity, it makes sense that it shares some traits with them. Make a point, or get off the pot.

Mohammed had only a smattering of knowledge regarding Christianity, and this is why he was confused about such essential Christian doctrine as the Trinity (thinking it was the Father, Son and Mary) for instance.

What's amusing is that it appears that Muhammad knew a whole lot more about Christianity than you do about Islam.

Islam is an invented religion - and there is no empirical evidence that Mohammed ever saw an angel or received revelations.

And the empirical evidence that Mary, mother of Christ, did? Or that Jesus of Nazareth did? How about Paul? Or Moses?

Stop yabbering - you're wasting our time.

He was a petty dictator that made his fortune by having his followers attack caravans.

Is that so? I'm pretty sure that his fortune came from his wife, an independently wealthy businesswoman... but somehow I doubt you care about reality.

He used his revelations to justify his rather insatiable urge for sexual encounters with young women (even children), and duped his followers into believing he was hearing directly from the moon god, Allah.

Speaking of empirical evidence, how about you give some here? You just accused him of pederasty - unless you have rock-solid proof, I suggest you withdraw that slander.

I could say that Jesus was in the habit of touching little children, too, and I actually have doctrinal proof - sitting on the lap, at least. You, however, are just pulling anything you can out of the air to support your baseless accusations, founded in your own massive ignorance. So stop.

Mohammed's is entombed in Medina. Where is the Lord Jesus' body?

MOHAMMAD WAS JUST A MAN - NO ONE CLAIMED HE WAS THE CHRIST, YOU FOOL. STOP THIS NONSENSE. You have no legitimate basis, no empirical evidence, and CLEARLY no knowledge of Islam. So just stop wasting our time with your fallacious pedantry.

[Krusader]

Are you serious? The Ka'ba had nothing to do with Abraham? Please explain?

I think my five year old grandson knows more about Christianity than Mohammed ever did. Prove, for instance, that Christians ever considered the Blessed Virgin to be part of the Trinity? Prove, for instance, that Christ's disciples ever referred to themselves as "Muslims," (in Mohammed's fantasies, possibly).

Prove that Mohammed ever had any revelations, for that matter, since he never once demonstrated the legitimacy of his call by any miraculous signs (as did the prophets of the Old Testament, and the Lord Jesus Christ).

Prove that Jesus never died upon the cross - as Mohammed claimed - even though this is even attested to by secular writers.

Prove that Jesus never rose from the grave - find His body! (Hint: you won't find it in Medina - that's where Mohammed's body is entombed)!