Creatio ex deo

[shunyadragon]

If a substance is perfectly simple, then you can't take a part of it and fashion something else out of it. Since God is simple and without parts, then God can't fashion anything out of Himself. It would also imply a change in God which is impossible as God is unmoved and timeless.

The problem I have with this and the previous statement is that you are trying to define what is possible and not possible from God's perspective.

I still go with an eternal preexisting matrix that is a reflection of God's attributes, and from this matrix God Created all possible universes very much like science views the Quantum World and the possible universes that are a part of this world. I still believe Creatio exnhilo is not supported in the Bible, where the Bible does indicate there was a Divine preexistence before our physical existence was created.

[Adrift]

where the Bible does indicate there was a Divine preexistence before our physical existence was created.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

[shunyadragon]

If a substance is perfectly simple, then you can't take a part of it and fashion something else out of it. Since God is simple and without parts, then God can't fashion anything out of Himself. It would also imply a change in God which is impossible as God is unmoved and timeless.

My problem with this and the previous statement is that you are defining God's nature with an IF statement, and what is possible and impossible concerning God. I do not believe that God usrd a part of God in Creation, but I won't go as far as saying it is impossible. If God can create from 'nothing' it is possible for God to Create from part of God.

I believe that the existence of an eternal matrix the reflects the attributes and nature of God exists, and from which God Create all possible universes. I believe that Biblically there exists such a world apart from God prior to the Creation of our physical existence. Likewise I consider Creatio Exnhilo to be unsupported by scripture.

[robrecht]

A qualified yes is ok,

So would you characterize your God/eternal matrix metaphysics as a kind of dualism? If not, why not?

[shunyadragon]

So would you characterize your God/eternal matrix metaphysics as a kind of dualism? If not, why not?

IF by Dualism you are referring to the nature of God, no. The eternal matrix exists as an eternal reflection of the attributes and nature of God. IF you wish to call this a kind of dualism, small d, then ok, but I am not sure of the direction of this line of reasoning.

I guess this is a similar dualism as the brain and the mind. In that the mind is a projection of the brain, but not the brain.

[shunyadragon]

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

The Bible describes a pantheon of angels, possibly Gods existing at the time of Creation.

[robrecht]

IF by Dualism you are referring to the nature of God, no. The eternal matrix exists as an eternal reflection of the attributes and nature of God. IF you wish to call this a kind of dualism, small d, then ok, but I am not sure of the direction of this line of reasoning.

Good. What aspects of God does the reflection not have? Likewise, does God not have any attributes that the matrix/medium/reflection does have, eg, materiality or energy that can be converted to matter?

[Leonhard]

But from nothing comes nothing.

We're not saying that nothingness caused anything to be, which what is impossible per that statement. We're saying that God is the cause of the primal matter of the universe receiving being and form. However you keep making the mistake (you might not be realising this) that the only way for God to do this, is to take a lump of himself (energy or whatever you'll call it) and fashion the universe out of it. That's wrong, not only can't He do that as He is perfectly simple and without part and therefore can't give a part of Himself, however He is also changeless and removing a part of Himself would imply change, which would imply imperfection... again impossible.

He also doesn't have to do any of that as there's nothing that prevents Him from generating de novo something that didn't prior have any existence.

Otherwise He would also be forced to form animals out of already pre-existing living matter, or souls out of pre-existing souls. If you think about it He's made many things that had absolutely no prior existence. Your own soul for instance was given being purely by an act of God. He did not cut out a lump of His Essence, and fashion it into you. You're not made of God, you're made by God.

I have a hard time wrapping my head around this.

That's okay. Its God we're talking about. He can't really be compared to anything else you're familiar with.

[Adrift]

The Bible describes a pantheon of angels, possibly Gods existing at the time of Creation.

Yes, I thought you were asking a question when you wrote, "where the Bible does indicate there was a Divine preexistence before our physical existence was created", and not making a statement. I stand corrected.

[seer]

That's wrong, not only can't He do that (as He is perfectly simple and without part), but He also doesn't have to as there's nothing that prevents Him from generating de novo something that didn't prior have any existence.

Well that is what I have a problem with - how, even in principle, could God create something from nothing?

[shunyadragon]

Good. What aspects of God does the reflection not have? Likewise, does God not have any attributes that the matrix/medium/reflection does have, eg, materiality or energy that can be converted to matter?

Your asking questions a little beyond my abilities as a fallible human. I turn to science to reveal the physical nature and attributes of God's creation of our universe simply as a matter of fact as the result.

[robrecht]

Your asking questions a little beyond my abilities as a fallible human. I turn to science to reveal the physical nature and attributes of God's creation of our universe simply as a matter of fact as the result.

OK, but how then do you know that there is an eternal matrix/medium/reflection that exists along with God?

[shunyadragon]

OK, but how then do you know that there is an eternal matrix/medium/reflection that exists along with God?

Of course, I do not know. I believe it so for two harmonious reasons. The Baha'i writings describe this nature of existence and God's Creation as beginnings with in a greater Created Eternal Matrix, and science describes this existence as the Quantum World, which by it's nature is most likely infinite and timeless, and our universe is expanding through this Quantum Matrix.

Some have objected to description of this Eternal Matrix as Created, but this more a semantics issue of translation, and how Create/Creation is defined.

[robrecht]

Of course, I do not know. I believe it so for two harmonious reasons. The Baha'i writings describe this nature of existence and God's Creation as beginnings with in a greater Created Eternal Matrix, and science describes this existence as the Quantum World, which by it's nature is most likely infinite and timeless, and our universe is expanding through this Quantum Matrix.

Some have objected to description of this Eternal Matrix as Created, but this more a semantics issue of translation, and how Create/Creation is defined.

When you say that science says the the nature of the quantum world is "most likely" infinite and timeless, you probably do not really mean that scientists have actually agreed upon a percentage of likelihood that this is so, eg, 51% or 80% likely, right? Do you just mean something like you're aware of several theories or hypotheses or mathematical models and most of these envision eternal scenarios?

[Leonhard]

Well that is what I have a problem with - how, even in principle, could God create something from nothing?

The short answer: Because unlike creatures with limited powers, who need something already there to make something because of our limited powers, God is infinitely powerful and can give being to things that didn't prior have one.

What kind of explanation do you want? Do you want me to argue that God can in fact do it? That's simple, as soon as you've argued that the universe has an ultimate cause, and that this cause is the same as God, or as soon as you argue that God created the universe, you have in fact accounted for the fact that He can do it.

Do you want me to explain metaphysically what happened? Prior to the Act of Creation there was nothing. God then by a single unified act of his Divine Will created matter de novo. We know this because, as can be shown by other arguments, and Biblically (if you doubt rational arguments), God Himself cannot undergo change, He's a simple substance without part, and beyond Him in the beginning there was nothing else. So when God created the world, he made it out of nothing: that is he did not refashion something else (that He did not Himself make), and He didn't make it out of Himself.

Do you want to know how to do it? How it was done, what was made, when, where etc...? I'm not sure what one would even begin to say here except to underscore just how great that single act of creation was. God not only made everything in that instance, he made all possibilities and everything that could possible be, without using anything but the sheer act of His power. Only something infinitely powerful could do that, so as a corollary you get that if God is the ultimate cause of the universe, He's omnipotent and His power is completely unrestrained.

Do you want to know the essence of the act? What the act was in and of itself? I'm afraid only God probably knows that, though there's chance we'll get to join in His joy of that act when we enter the heavenly beatific vision. So if you want to understand it as God does, hope and pray you get saved in the end.

Just because we don't understand all of it seer, doesn't mean we don't understand at least these things.