The death penalty

[markporter]

OK, as most of you probably realised I'm a brit, and as such we don't have the death penalty any more over here. Part of me just recoils against the state being able to inflict that kind of penalty on anyone, no matter what they've done, life in prison or something at least gives them a possibility of reform or a change of heart rather than just eliminating them. Having said this, as a christian I realise that the penalty is a biblical one, although maybe one firmly routed within a particular culture.

What do you all think of it?

I'm looking for personal opinions here, and theological ones as well I guess

[Pilgrim]

Well I think of it personally: Given the choice, I would rather be executed than live a life in prison.

Also, if you are spending life in prison, who cares about your reform.

I tend to think of the death penalty in very practical terms. It's not about deterance or anything like that, it's about getting rid of a bad element so that particular element can not repeat it's action.

[Dracula Girl]

Most people should have some idea that things like stealing and murder are wrong and would be punished. That is one reason that criminals usually try to hide their crimes. Typically they make the decision in light of the knowledge that such an action is punishable.

Christ didn't come to save us from punishment in this life nor does knowing Him mean that we always can or even necessarily should get out of the consequences of our own actions.

If a crime is truly heinous enough, I am for the death penalty for that person if it has truly been proven that the person charged is the one guilty, especially with the death penalty being used in the Bible. I do think that it would be best if before someone was actually killed they should be told about Jesus so that, especially if they have never really been told about Him, they can have a chance to accept Him as savior. For somethings that we might not be quite as sure of or might be slightly less heinous, life in prison may be a reasonably consequence. That is why prison ministry is important, to give people in prison a chance to be changed and hopefully that is something that the person in prison would care about. Still, as the saying goes, evil flourishes when good men do nothing. Consequence in this life must remain. The question I see is not should we but how can we know that it is being administered properly, like being as sure as possible that someone sentenced to death really did do the crime he is convicted of doing.

[HerodionRomulus]

I am opposed to capital punishment.

1. So what if the Bible supports it. The Bible also gives adamant support and regulation to human slavery--yet we have grown past that.

2. If someone has killed, then that is clear proof that the person is unsaved. Therefore, to then kill that person is to to ensure an eternity in hell. Christ came to save, not condemn. This killer needs extra time so that more opportunities for salvation and redemeption can be given.

3. Life incarceration is, as another stated, worse punishment than death. So for those who want vengeance, this is better.

[brahmabull]

This article puts the distinction pretty nicely:

The commandment "thou shall not kill" ( Exodus 20:13; Deuteronomy 5:17), is better understood to mean "you shall not murder," most modern translations of the Bible rendered it this way. According to the Bible not all killing, the taking of a life, is murder. Murder is the unlawfully taking of human life. The command not to murder applies to human beings, not to killing animals or plant life for food. God gave animals to mankind for his use ( Genesis 1:26-30; 9:1-4). But, this does not mean that humans have the right mistreat animals and the environment ( Genesis 2:15; Deuteronomy 22:6-7; 25:4; Proverbs 12:10). Under the Old Covenant God allowed the Israelites to kill other humans under very special circumstances such as punishment for certain sins, for example, murder ( Exodus 21:12-14, Leviticus 24:17, 21) and adultery ( Leviticus 20:10, Deuteronomy 22:22-24). God also allowed the Israelites to engage in warfare and even gave them instructions about waging war ( Deuteronomy 20:1-20). God also recognized that humans might accidentally kill each other, and he made provisions for this ( Numbers 35:9-34; Deuteronomy 19:1-13). The primary reason God hates murder is that out of all creation, only human are made in the image of God ( Genesis 1:26-27; 9:4-6). Even before the codification of the Ten Commandments at Mount Sinai the murder of other human beings was wrong ( Genesis 4:8-12; 4:23-24; 9:4-6; Exodus 1:16-17). While on earth, Jesus spoke out against murder ( Matthew 5:21-26; Mark 10:17-19). We also see in the writings of Paul ( Romans 1:18, 29-32; 13:8-10; Galatians 5:19-21), James ( James 2:8-11; 4:1-3), Peter ( 1 Peter 4:15-16) and John ( Revelation 9:20-21; 21:7-8; 22:14-15) that murder is wrong.

In Matthew 5:21-26 Jesus amplifies the meaning of the sixth commandment. He brings out that to commit murder means more then just killing someone, it means having an angry and unforgiving attitude towards them. The apostle John elaborates on this by writing that to hate someone is the same as murdering them ( 1 John 3:15). Murder like all sin, beginnings in the human mind ( Matthew 15:18-19; Mark 7:20-23) it starts as a thought, in this case hatred, which leads to the action of murder ( James 1:13-15; 4:1-3). The opposite of hating someone is loving them, we should even love our enemies ( Matthew 5:43-48), seeking not revenge, but looking for ways to help them ( Romans 12:17-21).

As we have seen, under the Old Covenant God allowed humans to kill other humans under certain circumstances. But what about today, and those who are now under the New Covenant, should we participate in the execution of a murder or an adulterer? Should Christians involve themselves in warfare? I would argue that Christians should not participate in such activities because the New Covenant is a covenant of life, not of death ( 2 Corinthians 3:4-11). Under the New Covenant Christians do not execute people for sinning. The most drastic steps anyone can take against an unrepentant Christian are withholding brotherly fellowship from him until he repents ( 1 Corinthians 5:9-13; 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15); and delivering or handing him over to Satan for spiritual correction ( 1 Corinthians 5:1-5; 1 Timothy 1:18-20). It is unclear from the scriptures exactly what it means to turn someone over to Satan.

Under the New Covenant a change occurred. Just as Christians are to no longer execute sinners, so they should not wage carnal war, but spiritual warfare ( John 18:36; 2 Corinthians 10:1-6; Ephesians 6:10-18; 1 Timothy 1:18-20; 6:11-14; 2 Timothy 2:3-5; 4:6-8). Christians must be peacemakers ( Matthew 5:9, Romans 14:19), forgiving those who do them harm ( Ephesians 4:29-32; Colossians 3:12-14; Matthew 6:9-15; Mark 11:25-26), treating their enemies with love ( Luke 6:27-36) and not seeking revenge ( Romans 12:17-21; 1 Peter 3:8-12). Hatred which is the same as murder ( 1 John 3:15), is unforgiving, vengeful and hostile towards one's enemies.

http://www.biblestudy.org/question/notkill.html

Above this, I believe that different words are used to distinguish between "kill" and "murder".

[BeHereNow]

OK, as most of you probably realised I'm a brit, and as such we don't have the death penalty any more over here. Part of me just recoils against the state being able to inflict that kind of penalty on anyone, no matter what they've done, life in prison or something at least gives them a possibility of reform or a change of heart rather than just eliminating them. Having said this, as a christian I realise that the penalty is a biblical one, although maybe one firmly routed within a particular culture.

What do you all think of it?

I'm looking for personal opinions here, and theological ones as well I guess

I'm with you, in that I don't like the state having that type of power. It's already bad enough that they can go off and kill people in other countries for no good reason, but I'd rather it not occur at home, if it were up to me.

As mentioned in the thread, life imprisonment would be much worse a punishment than death. If I were a Christian (or other similar religion), I'd also oppose the death penalty on grounds that the longer the person has time to live, the more opportunity they'd have to be saved. Pilgrim's comments suprised me in that regard.

[Benster]

1. It doesn't work as a deterrent.
2. Innocent people get executed. (That's murder by the state, and every taxpayer is partially responsible.)
3. We can lock criminals up forever for cheaper.
4. No point to it, except to provide closure for victoim's families. And that's not enough justification.

The comparison with Britain is interesting. They are marshmallow softies on all crime compared to us in the US.
Perhaps as a result: The rate of every crime known to man is higher in Britain than in the US..EXCEPT murder and rape.

[brahmabull]

Romans:
13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

13:13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.

13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

My personal belief is that since one is only put to death by a jury, then it is not the law that is responsible for the death penalty, but us. If you are on the jury and believe that it is wrong to pass a penalty of death, then it may or may not be a sin to do so.

On the other hand, it is the responsibility of the wrongdoer to accept the judgement of the law for doing wrong.

So basically, we are to do what is right by God and our conscience. The law should never force one to do what is wrong. By doing right by God we should be doing what is above and beyond expectation anyway.

Therefore we do right by God first, Government second, Self third.

[anthrogirl]

Fervently opposed to the death penalty. As humans, we should not have the right to take another human's life within this context.

ag

[brahmabull]

The more that I have thunk about it in the past, the more I think that I would not be willing to pass the death penalty onto somebody. I do, however make a distinction between self, and the government in terms of war. (Please do not use this as a segway to debate Iraq. I am talking a generality)

Those who fight in war are fighting for a government ideal and have the option of surrender if they are not on the side of their government. So in most cases there is a right side and a wrong side, and the righteous thing is to fight on the right side without mercy for the opposition, unless they submit willingly.

[NeilUnreal]

My view is the same as Gandalf's:

“Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends."

[Mountain Man]

The Bible also gives adamant support and regulation to human slavery--yet we have grown past that.

But apparently not past misinterpreting the Bible.

The Bible condones indentured servitude under specific guidelines. It condemns abusive slavery.

As for the death penalty, I believe anybody who malaciously takes the life of another has automatically forfieted his own life. Why should he be allowed to live after terminating another's existence? Elementary justice demands that the offender receive the same as his victim.

[HerodionRomulus]

The Bible does not just approve of what is allegedly called "indentured" slavery, but all slavery.
The OT has rules for Jewish slaves, and for Gentile slaves. Gentile slaves were slaves for all time.

Paul was a slave owner. Many of other people in the NT were slave owners.

Paul insisted that slaves be returned to their owners. Read Philemon.

Slavery of this type was practiced for centuries by "Christian" cultures
In the High Middle Ages, when the RCC began to enforce clerical celibacy, bishops would often confiscate, then sell the cleric's wife and children into slavery.

Finally, Christian principles overrode the rules and regulations of the Bible.

[brahmabull]

When I read about slavery, it reads more like employment guidelines...

Question:
Does the Bible distinguish between employment and slavery?? or was there a difference at all??

[Mountain Man]

Paul insisted that slaves be returned to their owners. Read Philemon.

Yes, please read Philemon and tell me how Paul really felt about slavery.