Man by his own effort can stop sinning.

[rhutchin]

We have the following exchange of ideas--

Ormly
Man by his own effort can stop sinning anytime he wishes.

rhutchin
That statement distinguishes Ormly from every Christian theology

Ormly
That statement from me disquishes me only from Calvin dogma. Delusional thinking from you not worth further typing.

Does anybody else buy into this statement made by Ormly that man by his own effort can stop sinning anytime he wishes.? If so, can you explain why you do so and help Ormly out?

[Ormly]

We have the following exchange of ideas--



Does anybody else buy into this statement made by Ormly that man by his own effort can stop sinning anytime he wishes.? If so, can you explain why you do so and help Ormly out?

Hey dude!-- never mind trying to help me out. Help yourself out. I'm secure.

[brahmabull]

For that to be true, you would have to have enough forethought to know the ultimate ripple effect of every decision made...

Now:
Please post the link to the origional post. We deserve to see the context of the statement.

[rhutchin]

Hey dude!-- never mind trying to help me out. Help yourself out. I'm secure.

Both Chappie and Ormly responded in support of Ormly in the thread [Limited Atonement or Atonement Limited] where Ormly made his philosophical statement, .

[/B]Is there a shreed of validity to Orms comments:

Hebrews 2:9-18 (King James Version)

9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage
16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Verse 14 clearly states that Christ came in the similtude of sinful flesh, same as you and I, "14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; Verse 17; "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren", And he suffered being tempted, just like you and I. Verse 18.

If Christ is our example, what does that suggest as a possibility that God has a right to reasonably expect of us... If it is made impossible for man not to sin, then God can have no reasonable expectation that he will not sin. Men are judged because they chose to sin, yet the possibility has to exist that they could have chosen otherwise. Men are judged because God has a right to a reasonable expectation that they not sin...

All have sinned, cannot and does not translate into all have to sin.... The problem arrises when men try and resist in their own power, and not the power through which Christ resisted: The power of the Holy Spirit...

Conceived in sin is not the childs sickness, it is the parents illness....

Men can choose not to sin, men do that everyday, but not consistently.. If men can "choose" not to sin, it has to be a choice grounded/initiated in their own effort. God will make it possible, but the choice itself has to have its source in our own hearts. Remember that I clearly stated that We make the choice, but God makes it possible....

Well, I guess that I have stooped just about as low as I can Go..... Do I believe that men will choose not to sin; consistently, NO...

Orm, I'm in a hepa trouble now... O' the depravity of men. And some man made theologies... Total...

John 16:33 (NASB-U)
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."

If we would correctly see that tribulations are a time of "our" testing; a wilderness experience whereby we are given an opportunity to reveal our allegiance to the Father as Jesus did as a man. That is what Pentecost was for. He had His and now we can have ours. Now we can embark on learning how to recognize the mind of God in our daily matters; working out our salvation, knowing the reason for it, with fear and trembling unto "son-ship".

Interestingly, both cite Scripture dealing with the work of Christ while Ormly clearly stated that man [b]by his own effort[/b[ can stop sinning anytime he wishes.

Since man is able, as Chappie and Ormly seem to be saying, to refuse to sin by his own effort, we can see that their problem is not that they are bad but that they fall short of perfection. This seems to be something akin to what Tercel is saying in his thread [The Mistake of Total Depravity]. Tercel, Ormly, and Chappie all seem to agree that people are inherently righteous but need Christ to cover their mistakes. It is perhaps no wonder that Christ died for such noble people. Well, it sounds fishy to me.


Ormly has begun a new thread [Self effort or No?] to discuss this further. Here he says--

"Seek and Ye shall find, Knock and it shall be opened to you........"

That all smacks of self-effort to me. I thought God did it all and we CAN't do anything because our righteousness is as filthy rags. Perhaps some the CC ers can shed some light on the error of my thinking. Any takers

That could be interesting.

[rhutchin]

Now:
Please post the link to the original post. We deserve to see the context of the statement.

I would if I knew how. Can you tell me how to do this or show me where to go for instructions? Thanks

[brahmabull]

Copy and paste the URL from your address bar. Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V

[Ormly]

I made the remark to stand alone. It can

[Trout]

I made the remark to stand alone. It can

And with that, I think the remark does indeed stand alone. . .outside the pale of orthodox Christianity.

[Ormly]

And with that, I think the remark does indeed stand alone. . .outside the pale of orthodox Christianity.

Nah, just outside the CC's. Who cares what he thinks? Bet younever even studied him

[Xmansmommy]

I'm not sure they are suggesting that man is born inherently righteous. Correct me if I'm wrong guys. I think all people are guilty of sinning but yes, I do believe that many people have stopped sinful behavior without even knowing God or that they are sinning. They've learned that whatever behavior/sin they were exhibiting is not good and turned from doing it. Do they always and completely do righteousness? No....but then again, neither do Christians.

[Ormly]

I'm not sure they are suggesting that man is born inherently righteous. Correct me if I'm wrong guys. I think all people are guilty of sinning but yes, I do believe that many people have stopped sinful behavior without even knowing God or that they are sinning. They've learned that whatever behavior/sin they were exhibiting is not good and turned from doing it. Do they always and completely do righteousness? No....but then again, neither do Christians.

The problem isn't that there is some mis-understanding about we say but what they want it to be we are saying regardless.. That always come through as a mis-representation of your words. When they start out in their response by saying: "So you are saying....." and then the mis-quote of your words, look out cause the rabbits are being turned loose for you to chase. I can't use the word for that. Dee-Dee won't let me.

[Eanruig]

I made the remark to stand alone. It can

That any one of us can refuse a specific act of sin is a matter of common experience. In order to be an accurate statement, however, the remark must cover all sin. Seeing that none of us have perfect knowledge of how our own thoughts, motives, and acts appear before God, we cannot know completely whether they are tainted by sin or not. So I cannot see that any one can stop sinning by personal effort.

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags." (Isaiah 64:6)

"Who can understand his errors? Cleanse Thou me from secret faults." (Psalm 19:12)

"An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin." (Prov. 21:4)

The remark, then, does stand alone, unsupported by Scripture.

[Ormly]

That any one of us can refuse a specific act of sin is a matter of common experience. In order to be an accurate statement, however, the remark must cover all sin. Seeing that none of us have perfect knowledge of how our own thoughts, motives, and acts appear before God, we cannot know completely whether they are tainted by sin or not. So I cannot see that any one can stop sinning by personal effort.

Then you take my remark too far and your conclusion is therefore wrong.

If one doesn't know they're sinning how would one stop? And if they don't know would there be penalty? How can it be sin if you don't know?

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags." (Isaiah 64:6)

"Who can understand his errors? Cleanse Thou me from secret faults." (Psalm 19:12)

"An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin." (Prov. 21:4)

Sorry, not applicable in this.

The remark, then, does stand alone, unsupported by Scripture.

Sorry, but it does. Where there is no law, there is no sin. I suggest you find out what that means.

[Zxcv Bnm]

Man by his own effort can stop sinning anytime he wishes.

"there is no one who does not sin" (1 Kings 8:46; 2 Chronicles 6:36)

"Who can say, 'I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin'?" (Proverbs 20:9)

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8)

If one doesn't know they're sinning how would one stop? And if they don't know would there be penalty? How can it be sin if you don't know?

" 'If the whole Israelite community sins unintensionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, even though the community is unaware of the matter, they are guilty.'
'When a leader sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the commands of the LORD his God, he is guilty....'
'If a member of the community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, he is guilty. When he is made aware of the sin he committed....' " (Leviticus 4)

"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows." (Luke 12:47-48)

[Ormly]

"there is no one who does not sin" (1 Kings 8:46; 2 Chronicles 6:36)

"Who can say, 'I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin'?" (Proverbs 20:9)

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8)

" 'If the whole Israelite community sins unintensionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, even though the community is unaware of the matter, they are guilty.'
'When a leader sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the commands of the LORD his God, he is guilty....'
'If a member of the community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, he is guilty. When he is made aware of the sin he committed....' " (Leviticus 4)

"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows." (Luke 12:47-48)

So is that a yes or a no.