Thread: Why women should be silent...
July 18th 2003, 10:10 AM #136
But how can someone serve (let alone wash the feet of) someone without submitting to at least their needs? I also think "The one who rules should live like the one who serves" is a pretty clear case of submission.
My only point is that submission is not something "bad" in our religion, but a high honor.
July 18th 2003, 12:05 PM #137
Very, very well written!Today @ 06:09 AM post located here
Incorrect. There were no 'churches' as you put it. Church WAS at home for early christians. Often at Peter or Andrews homes while Jesus walked with them and until they got organized and started communes (read the book of Acts)
The reason Paul wrote what he did was because Christianity opened the doors for women to have more freedom in church, including being church leaders (which Paul states in at least two of his letters) yet it one city this new freedom was causing disruptions as the women were asking for clarifications and the sermons were interupted for questions. The jewish men were used to listening and then all talking afterwards or whenever they got together. The women never had this freedom so they had many more questions, and less time to ask them. So he stated in one letter in response to this subject that he would have them stay quiet in (the commune) church and ask questions from their spouses when they were alone.
You must remember that Paul did not walk with Jesus on Earth. He was a Pharisee from a long line of pharisees. To change was hard, which is why he was killing so many christians. Even after his meeting on the road to Tarsus, his change wasn't complete. Jesus didn't get perfection out of the 12 we know about in 3 years of walking with them, how could he get perfection from 1 who hated him most?
When making claims like you make here, indepth study into the culture and history of the peoples are a must. We can not go on one tiny fraction of information and base all our judgements on it. Take the time to read the works of the times, the historians of the time, and the excavations and archeology since so the most we know about the culture can be compared and properly weighed. All the information, or most of it, is available on the internet. It would kill probably 75% of the topics now debated and would open up thousands of new topics more pertanent and informed than sexism ever was or will be.
Bang hard on the head of the pharisee, show love, show mercy, teach understanding, give hope, weave families together. All these are the real tenants of Christ.
July 18th 2003, 12:21 PM #138
The more i talk with you, the more i see you.Today @ 02:25 PM post located here
It's men not doing their jobs and worshipping their wives instead of God that allowed for the rebellion of women in demanding equality. Jesus didn't rebel and demand equality of God, according to the Bible.
We all came from Adam and Eve according to the Bible. We all sinned in Adam. You are just using a myth from the evolutionist religion to mock my position. It's correctly spelled Neanderthal.
I'm kind to the women that I deal with. I don't require them to do my work for me. I look out for them, opening car doors and all that stuff. I don't lord it over them but I take care of them as the weaker vessels that God says that they are. I serve a 1 year old girl some times as her babysitter. I never submit to her. I wash her feet- and sometimes her entire person, but I am the boss of her. We are not equals. I restrict her diet, no goldfish crackers if she doesn't eat the regular food that her Mom put out for her. I'm not perfect but she is obligated to obey me. Her parents put me in charge of her. I protect her from harm. Your position affords little protection for women.
Look at what "liberation" has provided for children. They are being raised by anonymous strangers. They grow up promiscuous.
I do not disagree with all of your views, we should be in charge of children, i agree there, but you need to look at your bible in more detail. God didnot say that women are the weaker vessell, Paul did. Paul gave many opinons that he even admitted that it was him speaking, not God. The submissive role HISTORY has given women is the PREDESTINED CURSE OF GOD. Its a curse O, you are glorying in a curse God placed on women. Look at Genesis 3:16, christianity does not teach this. Here is the point womens submission began. Eve was NOT this way BEFORE the curse, use reason here. Men have ruled over women because of this curse. The new covenant FREES all from curses, the marriage relationship is now FREE for the couple to interact as THEY wish. They can keep hold to the curse, or follow Pauls advice or do their own thing, whatever works for them. If the wife wants to stand on her head to pleae her husband, then thats fine. If the husband wants to hold his wife in very high esteem, then thats fine too. But when we start using the bible to support the degrading of women. in my view, that is a sin. God has NEVER labled a woman a weaker vessell, THAT IS NOT IN THE BIBLE, its in YOUR MIND.
July 21st 2003, 01:29 AM #139
Re: I will not require my woman to keep silent.05-11-2003 @ 02:50 PM post located here
I will not require that she wear a head covering either. Show me in scripture where God or Christ will condemn me for NOT requireing her to do those things. The ignorance of mankind continues to place heavy burdens on Gods people. The burdens are always the same, meaningless and mindless.
July 21st 2003, 05:39 PM #140
The covering is over your understanding ElderToday @ 06:29 AM post located here
Don't change the word of god and know that the covering might mean to have a man over her as God had intendent. just the word of God will do. Eve fell, then Mahariam Moses sister fell trying to be the man. and today just remember that God will judge in the end . He will tell them that he knos them not.
Christianity is in the hands of thinkers like you, thats why it will progress no futher. I pity females who believe and accept this crap.
July 24th 2003, 02:12 PM #141
1 Peter 3
7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"...and when the wombat comes, he will find me gone, he'll look for a place to sit." Stewart Copeland
July 25th 2003, 07:52 AM #142
Good day to all....the consistency point raised earlier is IMO very valid. If we uphold one biblical statement to be applied to one particular group of individuals, we are to uphold all the other references to the same group. So Steven, as a woman I ought to not braid my hair and wear a head cover to demonstrate obedience to God.
I wonder how many christian husbands require of their wives to remain silent and do not seek their quality of being " helpmates" to men thru the vital communication marital life implies?A dog will leave paw prints on your heart.
July 25th 2003, 08:06 AM #143
If the husband doesn't love the wife as Christ loves the church, she is still required to submit and obey, if the wife doesn't submit and obey, the husband is still required to love her as Christ loves the church."...and when the wombat comes, he will find me gone, he'll look for a place to sit." Stewart Copeland
July 25th 2003, 09:11 AM #144Sin (and blessing) is not passed down through women, hence Jesus' virgin birth.a bullet in the reanimated corpse of creationism:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...6&dopt=GenBank
William Dembski: "I think the big lesson is, let's go to work and really develop this theory and not try to win this in the court of public opinion. The burden is on us to produce."
July 25th 2003, 09:39 AM #145
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
None of us are born sinless, or without mercy.
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."...and when the wombat comes, he will find me gone, he'll look for a place to sit." Stewart Copeland
July 25th 2003, 10:06 AM #146
David, I disagree. Paul makes it clear that he was not responsible for sin (The Law defines it) until he was taught about it:
Of which F.F. Bruce says:
So Adam was not conscious of any sinful inclination until his obedience was testedI may not yet be as old as dirt, but dirt and I are starting to have an awful lot in common... Stephen Donaldson - Author of my favorite series (The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant)
S'cuse me... oops, I'm sorry... I didn't see your sign - Bill Engvall
July 25th 2003, 10:16 AM #147
July 25th 2003, 10:19 AM #148
23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
We we're born dead in sins, He was not. We are guilty of sins even if we are ignorant of them. We live a dead "life" until we are reborn.
July 25th 2003, 10:24 AM #149
July 25th 2003, 10:57 AM #150
in reference to mickel, stephen, matt and all those people at the beginning of this forum
this maybe how you see yourselves.......
this is how you appear to me and others........
so get off the soap box before you trip and fall and learn to be more relaxed when discussing things rather than coming off as an attack, because people's beliefs whether right or wrong are personal and any offensive towards those beliefs, will be taken personally, even if that was not intention. (its why debating theology just to prove someone is wrong is a poor witness to a nonbeliever, rather than using love and humilty and then using a relationship to speak truth into someone's life)
everyone has an opinion...... and besides you can't take everything so literal in scripture.... there are metaphores, things that are written specifically to the culture of that time, There are places where God has raised women to be over men, because the men were to busy doing evil in the sight of the Lord, (go back and read judges).
So God uses those who make themselves available to Him. God used the harlot Rahab to save the scouts from Israel, and if you notice that Jesus in the line of David who is in the line of Rahab. (its traceable in the bible). Scripture never told if she had a covering or braided her hair, but it did tell that she did save lives of those men.
People are starving right now and you're worried about something soo trivial that it was never mentioned if Mary Madiglene (spelling?) wore a covering or not. But scripture does show through the story that she did love Christ with all her heart, which is way more important than what is being discussed in heat over this forum.
God will use whoever He choses, covering or no covering. If men would stand up, then women would not have to. If men do not stand up, he will place women over them, if women do not stand up he will place a child over them as he did with david, and if the children fail, the rocks will cry out the praises of God. So take your pick.
If I remember correctly Jesus had a bone to pick with pharasies. The pharasies would put cloths over their cups that they would drink from in order not to swallow a gnat (unclean food) but yet they were more about the money and the gifts and the appearance of being under the law rather then love and compassion for their fellow man and following the heart of God.
so give your brother a cyberhug and move on....because if a man is made in the image of God and you slander that man(woman) then you are also slandering the image of God.
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