Originally posted by seer
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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.
A neat video of dead languages!
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Originally posted by Enjolras View PostAs long as any system you invent says that "something is good or evil independently of whether anybody believes it to be so," you are correct, that would be an objective system. "Follow the teachings of Jesus" is also objective, as is "obey the dictates of sharia law," or "treat everyone with cruelty," or "give everyone you meet a donut," for that matter. They are objective because they say "something is good or evil independently of whether anybody believes it to be so." On the other hand, "Do whatever feels good to you" or "always look out for your own self-interest" are subjective systems of morality because they do not regard evil or goodness independently of the subject. All I am doing at this point is clarifying the difference between objective and subjective. To say something is objective is not to say it is correct. It just means it is independent of the subject.The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu
[T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations
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Originally posted by Truthseeker View PostYour disagreement with seer regarding the meanings of "objective" and "subjective" appears to be purely semantic. I admit, though, that I'm not certain I understand seer's diction as realistic.
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Originally posted by Enjolras View PostI believe he is/was confusing the word 'objective' with 'truth' or something like that. The definition I am using is the same one WL Craig used in his debate with Shelly Kagan on this very topic, found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiJnCQuPiuo. If anyone is interested in hearing both sides of the issue discussed by experts in the field, I highly recommend it.
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Originally posted by whag View PostWhat if they're not there?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Kelp(p) View PostNot at all. It's a natural desire and it's my hope as well. I'm just saying that your entire moral schema seems to be based on the prospect of a heavenly reward. That's ok, but it's consequentialist and not deontological- just like much of secular morality and just as coherent.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Enjolras View PostI believe he is/was confusing the word 'objective' with 'truth' or something like that. The definition I am using is the same one WL Craig used in his debate with Shelly Kagan on this very topic, found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiJnCQuPiuo. If anyone is interested in hearing both sides of the issue discussed by experts in the field, I highly recommend it.Last edited by seer; 11-22-2014, 08:31 PM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostNo Kelp, it is nothing like secular ethics - those are completely, and fully hopeless. The offer nothing but death. And yes, my system, or rather God's, is base on being with those we love or will come to love for eternity. After all is that what Christ promised - everlasting life with Him?
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Originally posted by seer View PostNo Enjolras, you can't just invent an ethical system and call it "objective." We are speaking of what is objective to mankind here. Therefore it must exist independently of mankind. Any moral system that comes from a human mind is by definition subjective. "Do no harm" falls clearly in the subjective category.
In any case, how does your objective moral system help you understand what is right and wrong apart from thinking about what does and does not harm others? What real advantage does your system provide? "Do whatever God says" is hardly adequate because people have been disagreeing about "what God says" since there have been people who have believed in such a power. How do you know what the correct way of understanding his will is? I asked about all of this in post 164, and I don't believe you have addressed the problem:
It seems to me that adding God into the mix only further complicates the issue, rather than helping. For then you must also try to determine God's will or nature, something about which even Christians disagree significantly. Christians believing in the same God and bible disagree about many significant moral issues today: abortion, capital punishment, birth-control, stem-cell research, homosexuality, Sabbath observance, alcohol use, etc. This is not to mention the disagreements with other theistic systems such as Islam, where some adherents think god wants them to kill everyone who disagrees with them. Does having a god who somehow provides the basis for morality really help resolve these issues?Last edited by Enjolras; 11-22-2014, 09:21 PM.
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My mistake. I thought this was addressed to me and not seer.
I'll just leave it anyway since I worked hard on it, though, and it might benefit someone.
Originally posted by whag View PostBut you have no idea they'll be there, meaning heaven could be a disappointment of unimaginable proportions.
Second off, even if I'm wrong, a lot of Eternal Conscious Torment advocates recognize layers of punishment in Hell such as in Luke 12 so I doubt my grandmother is going to be in a huge amount of pain unless she molested kids or something I don't know about (and if she did, then I don't want to see her again).
Third, "the gates of Hell are locked from the inside." Any relatives aren't going want to see me and are also effectively different people then they were in life. It's very sad, to be sure, but I'll get over it. Mark 10:29-30:“Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life."Last edited by Kelp(p); 11-22-2014, 09:19 PM.O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.
A neat video of dead languages!
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Originally posted by seer View PostNo Kelp, it is nothing like secular ethics - those are completely, and fully hopeless. The offer nothing but death.
Originally posted by seer View PostAnd yes, my system, or rather God's, is base on being with those we love or will come to love for eternity. After all is that what Christ promised - everlasting life with Him?
So, now that we agree on that, what is wrong with a secular ethic based on acting for the happiness of yourself and those around you? To repeat myself from an earlier post:
The reason do no harm works and "it's ok to kill whoever you feel like" doesn't is because it leads to a Mad Max world in which somebody will come after you the moment you let your guard down or show signs of weakness. Who wants to live their life that way? Pol Pot, Saddam, Richard Ramirez, think about the way their lives ended. Were these really happy people, regardless of whatever they might have told themselves?O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.
A neat video of dead languages!
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Originally posted by whag View PostPossibly the worst apologia EVER is saying you act moral because God is watching you and will translate you to heaven. That's a thousand times more tragic than conceding no objective meaning."As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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Originally posted by ChaosRain View PostBut, hopelessness and death? Nay. Hope comes and goes for all of us. As an anti-theist, I have hope that one day, the people of the world will stop letting religion decide who they love or hate or hug or kill or heal or crush; when people can work together to solve greater issues in the world. Hope is one thing that we both share. Death seems to be one of the defining differences between us, however; you find it more palatable to believe that when you die, you'll float up to a wonderful, blissful heaven, where you will spend eternity. I, however, am incapable of allowing for such a luxury. Once again, I envy your faith, but cannot profess that it is possible for me to share it with you.
This realization is why we can - and do - place so much emphasis on making this world a better place to live. First; for ourselves and our families. And, then; the rest of the world.
The total randomness of life informs us that not everything will work out the way we plan. There will be no Nirvana, no gold-plated streets where the lamb will lie down with the lion. No Utopia, no perfect society - try as we might, s**t happens. It's in how we deal with the s**t that life deals our way that matters.
My grandmother was a woman of faith, but she had a very secular way of working that out. She used to say: G-d's will for us is what he places on our plate each and every day."
NORMWhen the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu
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Originally posted by Darth Executor View PostWhy? Sounds like a rational position to me. You give x, you get y. Certainly beats "I give x, y and z and get nothing." Why are atheists so obsessed with pushing a morality that effectively turns you into a complete chump? It genuinely boggles the mind.
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