Originally posted by Paprika
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This is an open forum area for all members for discussions on all issues of science and origins. This area will and does get volatile at times, but we ask that it be kept to a dull roar, and moderators will intervene to keep the peace if necessary. This means obvious trolling and flaming that becomes a problem will be dealt with, and you might find yourself in the doghouse.
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Forum Rules: Here
As usual, Tweb rules apply. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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"I don't care if you landed a spacecraft on a comet, your shirt is sexist"
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Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.
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Originally posted by lao tzu View PostThat's what you'd think, but look at the counter-reaction ... every misognynist on the planet with access to a keyboard seems determined to prove the "hysterical reaction" valid. If the counter-reaction had been a collective rolling of the eyes, I'd feel differently. It wasn't.
Point proven.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Spartacus View PostWhat's wrong with public shaming?
If you're gonna be interviewed on-camera, you should probably make the effort to look professional.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Rod Dreher, based on a description by the man's sister, suggests that the scientist may suffer from Asperger Syndrome and might not be all that socially clued in. Any road, this seems to be the product of a structural failure first and foremost: there's no need for rocket scientists to come to work in a suit and tie but there should be a minimal set of standards that prevents people from wearing "pin-up girls" to work. A productive criticism, I think, would be pointed at the facility's dress code."I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sam View PostRod Dreher, based on a description by the man's sister, suggests that the scientist may suffer from Asperger Syndrome and might not be all that socially clued in. Any road, this seems to be the product of a structural failure first and foremost: there's no need for rocket scientists to come to work in a suit and tie but there should be a minimal set of standards that prevents people from wearing "pin-up girls" to work. A productive criticism, I think, would be pointed at the facility's dress code.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI really don't know anything about this facility... is it normally subject to visits from outsiders? Admittedly though, even if it wasn't, they should have had a clue that the press would be "coming in"."I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sam View PostA stricter dress code shouldn't be in place for the benefit of the press.
It should be in place for the benefit for others working in the same facility.
Pin-up girls, half-nude firefighters, tube tops . . . none of these would be considered acceptable dress in most places.
And as there does exist something of a more hostile environment for women in the "hard" sciences, extra care should probably be taken in these facilities to reduce perceptions of misogyny or objectification.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI disagree, Sam... if I work in a place where there is very limited interaction with the public, it only makes sense that the policy allows for a certain amount of "dressing up" when guests are present.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostHave others objected?
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostAgreed! But it doesn't sound like this is "most places".
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI confess ignorance on this. It's that much of a "known fact" that there's this "hostile environment" against women in such places? And, if that's the case, all it takes is a complaint to HR. Is it fear of retaliation that keeps complaints from being filed? ARE there objections within this particular establishment to this guy dressing the way he did?
If you're focusing on this one facility at this moment in time, you're going to miss the forest for the trees. The underlying and legitimate criticism is a sub-culture that is often dismissive, if not hostile, to women coworkers."I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sam View PostIf you're focusing on this one facility at this moment in time, you're going to miss the forest for the trees. The underlying and legitimate criticism is a sub-culture that is often dismissive, if not hostile, to women coworkers.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by phank View PostThis is nothing. Some of you should play in a rock band for a while. The MOST respectful reference to women those guys make would be censored right off this forum, and it goes downhill from there.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThe outcry IS about this facility, Sam - particularly this one man. I don't know WHY I try to have civil discussions with you.
Like I said, though, you're missing the forest for the trees. Any one event, in isolation, is about one person or one facility. For those who recognize a pattern of behavior or systemic problem, though, any one event is merely a representation of the larger whole. Just as you might argue that Jonathan Gruber's comments represent the broader behavior of liberal academics, it's argued here that this event represents a larger sub-culture in the hard sciences that demeans women and negatively affects female colleagues.
So if you're just talking about one guy in one facility, you're going to miss the overarching criticism, which is very much focused on that larger sub-culture."I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sam View PostI wasn't being uncivil at any point.
Like I said, though, you're missing the forest for the trees.
Any one event, in isolation, is about one person or one facility. For those who recognize a pattern of behavior or systemic problem, though, any one event is merely a representation of the larger whole.
Just as you might argue that Jonathan Gruber's comments represent the broader behavior of liberal academics
it's argued here that this event represents a larger sub-culture in the hard sciences that demeans women and negatively affects female colleagues.
So if you're just talking about one guy in one facility, you're going to miss the overarching criticism, which is very much focused on that larger sub-culture.
*yeah, I'm being facetious, but the problem must be greater than the lack of an appropriate dress code, as you seem to suggest with "but there should be a minimal set of standards that prevents people from wearing "pin-up girls" to work". You don't solve a systemic problem (if there is one) by putting on a band aid (or less inappropriate shirt))The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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