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This is an open forum area for all members for discussions on all issues of science and origins. This area will and does get volatile at times, but we ask that it be kept to a dull roar, and moderators will intervene to keep the peace if necessary. This means obvious trolling and flaming that becomes a problem will be dealt with, and you might find yourself in the doghouse.

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"I don't care if you landed a spacecraft on a comet, your shirt is sexist"

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Paprika View Post
    That's the type of question I'd expect someone with no sense of shame to ask.


    And if one doesn't?
    Generally, lack of professionalism in one's attire can speak for itself, but if it's so horribly unprofessional as to be indecent, then I'm not gonna blame the interviewer for not reacting according to the highest professional standards
    Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Paprika View Post
      What point?
      Misogynists are clueless.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
        Misogynists are clueless.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
          That's what you'd think, but look at the counter-reaction ... every misognynist on the planet with access to a keyboard seems determined to prove the "hysterical reaction" valid. If the counter-reaction had been a collective rolling of the eyes, I'd feel differently. It wasn't.

          Point proven.
          So there are idiots on both sides. That does not justify the initial overreaction.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
            What's wrong with public shaming?

            If you're gonna be interviewed on-camera, you should probably make the effort to look professional.
            He's a guy with "full sleeve" tattoos down both arms who had been showing off his latest tattoo on his leg (of the lander on the asteroid). I think we were well past looking professional.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #21
              Rod Dreher, based on a description by the man's sister, suggests that the scientist may suffer from Asperger Syndrome and might not be all that socially clued in. Any road, this seems to be the product of a structural failure first and foremost: there's no need for rocket scientists to come to work in a suit and tie but there should be a minimal set of standards that prevents people from wearing "pin-up girls" to work. A productive criticism, I think, would be pointed at the facility's dress code.
              "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Sam View Post
                Rod Dreher, based on a description by the man's sister, suggests that the scientist may suffer from Asperger Syndrome and might not be all that socially clued in. Any road, this seems to be the product of a structural failure first and foremost: there's no need for rocket scientists to come to work in a suit and tie but there should be a minimal set of standards that prevents people from wearing "pin-up girls" to work. A productive criticism, I think, would be pointed at the facility's dress code.
                I really don't know anything about this facility... is it normally subject to visits from outsiders? Admittedly though, even if it wasn't, they should have had a clue that the press would be "coming in".
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  I really don't know anything about this facility... is it normally subject to visits from outsiders? Admittedly though, even if it wasn't, they should have had a clue that the press would be "coming in".
                  A stricter dress code shouldn't be in place for the benefit of the press. It should be in place for the benefit for others working in the same facility. Pin-up girls, half-nude firefighters, tube tops . . . none of these would be considered acceptable dress in most places. And as there does exist something of a more hostile environment for women in the "hard" sciences, extra care should probably be taken in these facilities to reduce perceptions of misogyny or objectification.
                  "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Sam View Post
                    A stricter dress code shouldn't be in place for the benefit of the press.
                    I disagree, Sam... if I work in a place where there is very limited interaction with the public, it only makes sense that the policy allows for a certain amount of "dressing up" when guests are present.

                    It should be in place for the benefit for others working in the same facility.
                    Have others objected?

                    Pin-up girls, half-nude firefighters, tube tops . . . none of these would be considered acceptable dress in most places.
                    Agreed! But it doesn't sound like this is "most places".

                    And as there does exist something of a more hostile environment for women in the "hard" sciences, extra care should probably be taken in these facilities to reduce perceptions of misogyny or objectification.
                    I confess ignorance on this. It's that much of a "known fact" that there's this "hostile environment" against women in such places? And, if that's the case, all it takes is a complaint to HR. Is it fear of retaliation that keeps complaints from being filed? ARE there objections within this particular establishment to this guy dressing the way he did?
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      I disagree, Sam... if I work in a place where there is very limited interaction with the public, it only makes sense that the policy allows for a certain amount of "dressing up" when guests are present.
                      Dressing up is fine. It's dressing down that triggered this particular event. And there should be some minimum standards as to how far down one can dress.


                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      Have others objected?
                      Apparently so. For my part, I've got some female relatives in the "hard" sciences and they agree that the culture this sort of thing exemplifies is a problem.


                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      Agreed! But it doesn't sound like this is "most places".
                      I should be clearer: that sort of attire isn't appropriate in any professional work environment at that level.


                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      I confess ignorance on this. It's that much of a "known fact" that there's this "hostile environment" against women in such places? And, if that's the case, all it takes is a complaint to HR. Is it fear of retaliation that keeps complaints from being filed? ARE there objections within this particular establishment to this guy dressing the way he did?
                      Yes, it is a fairly understood fact that there exists a sub-culture of misogyny in the hard sciences that many women professionals experience. This seems to particularly affect areas like engineering and computer programming but the cultural hostility can be found across disciplines. I've lost the graph but you can even see how women and men were largely equally interested in some of these disciplines right up until the 80's, when female interest dropped sharply. The conclusion was that in the 70s and 80s, computers and engineering toys were advertised almost exclusively as "boy's toys" and that subtle but exclusionary decision has helped a lot to suppress female interest in these disciplines until recently.

                      If you're focusing on this one facility at this moment in time, you're going to miss the forest for the trees. The underlying and legitimate criticism is a sub-culture that is often dismissive, if not hostile, to women coworkers.
                      "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Sam View Post
                        If you're focusing on this one facility at this moment in time, you're going to miss the forest for the trees. The underlying and legitimate criticism is a sub-culture that is often dismissive, if not hostile, to women coworkers.
                        The outcry IS about this facility, Sam - particularly this one man. I don't know WHY I try to have civil discussions with you.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          This is nothing. Some of you should play in a rock band for a while. The MOST respectful reference to women those guys make would be censored right off this forum, and it goes downhill from there.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by phank View Post
                            This is nothing. Some of you should play in a rock band for a while. The MOST respectful reference to women those guys make would be censored right off this forum, and it goes downhill from there.
                            Now THAT does not surprise me at all.... especially from the rapper quadrant.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              The outcry IS about this facility, Sam - particularly this one man. I don't know WHY I try to have civil discussions with you.
                              I wasn't being uncivil at any point.

                              Like I said, though, you're missing the forest for the trees. Any one event, in isolation, is about one person or one facility. For those who recognize a pattern of behavior or systemic problem, though, any one event is merely a representation of the larger whole. Just as you might argue that Jonathan Gruber's comments represent the broader behavior of liberal academics, it's argued here that this event represents a larger sub-culture in the hard sciences that demeans women and negatively affects female colleagues.

                              So if you're just talking about one guy in one facility, you're going to miss the overarching criticism, which is very much focused on that larger sub-culture.
                              "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Sam View Post
                                I wasn't being uncivil at any point.
                                Nor did I say you were.... the fact that I think it's useless to have a civil discussion with you does not necessarily mean you are not civil.

                                Like I said, though, you're missing the forest for the trees.
                                Sam, if you want to talk about a forest, knock yourself out!

                                Any one event, in isolation, is about one person or one facility. For those who recognize a pattern of behavior or systemic problem, though, any one event is merely a representation of the larger whole.
                                Have we SEEN a consistent public display of this type of behavior from the scientific community, Sam? It wouldn't have been NEWS if we had.

                                Just as you might argue that Jonathan Gruber's comments represent the broader behavior of liberal academics
                                I'm not.

                                it's argued here that this event represents a larger sub-culture in the hard sciences that demeans women and negatively affects female colleagues.
                                So, making him change his shirt or "dress better" is HARDLY a solution, wouldn't you agree?

                                So if you're just talking about one guy in one facility, you're going to miss the overarching criticism, which is very much focused on that larger sub-culture.
                                So why do you think this "sub-culture" is morally decrepit*, Sam?



                                *yeah, I'm being facetious, but the problem must be greater than the lack of an appropriate dress code, as you seem to suggest with "but there should be a minimal set of standards that prevents people from wearing "pin-up girls" to work". You don't solve a systemic problem (if there is one) by putting on a band aid (or less inappropriate shirt))
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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