Identity of the Great Whore of Babylon

[Jude3b]

Well, if the Roman Catholic Church is the Great Whore of Babylon, I guess that would make the Protestant Church the illegitimate b@stard-child of said Whore.

That is almost correct.

Roman Catholicism is "The Mother of Harlots" and her daughters are the Protestant denominations. The reformation is a good thing in that many christians returned to the Word of God as their source of faith and doctrine. This is great, but they made the same mistake as Romanism - in that they still had "man rule" instead of the Holy Spirit. And created creeds instead of a full return to the Word of God.



They make an image to the beast in that they have not fully returned to the original church of God standard - with its two witnesses the Word of God and the Holy Spirit.

[Pythagoras]

That is almost correct.

Roman Catholicism is "The Mother of Harlots" and her daughters are the Protestant denominations. The reformation is a good thing in that many christians returned to the Word of God as their source of faith and doctrine. This is great, but they made the same mistake as Romanism - in that they still had "man rule" instead of the Holy Spirit. And created creeds instead of a full return to the Word of God.



They make an image to the beast in that they have not fully returned to the original church of God standard - with its two witnesses the Word of God and the Holy Spirit.

Bravo..... Holmes thinks you're a man after his own heart....


The Protestant Church is by no means perfect, but the Catholic, she's impossible; the Great Mother of Harlots indeed .

[Pythagoras]

Interesting article about Holme's habit: URL link

It was cocaine, not opium. Are they related? Anyway.

have a good thread, Holmes

Holmes tells me your characterization of him being an opium or cocaine addict is unfounded. According to him, you are also engaging in a classic slippery slope fallacy. You see, if we follow your reasoning process to it's end then someone who drinks three cups of coffee a day is a drug addict(caffeine), a cigar smoker is always a nicotine addict, a social drinker(beer) is ... well, you get the drift. Watson suggests the same can be said of the insane idea of transubstantiation, which breaks down rather quickly if we follow it's reasoning process to it's logical conclusion(s).

Holmes tells me your outburst has nothing whatsoever to do with opium or cocaine addictions (or what not). But rather, you're annoyed at him for dare suggesting the Great Whore of Babylon in Chapter 17 possibly be the Catholic Church. He consulted Freud to get your diagnosis..

[Pythagoras]

Hi,

However, I'm not sure if the RCC is the Great Whore, because later in the chapter, she is revealed as the "great city which reigns over the kings of the earth." And in Chapter 18, "she' is described as the center of world trade...so much so, that all the merchants of the world will mourn her fall. In fact, this centralization of commerce seems to be the most important characteristic about her.


Panda

Holmes suggests you read Catholic history.

Popes crowned and deposed kings and emperors, exacting obedience by threatening them with excommunication .
Even today, the Vatican is the only city which exchanges ambassadors with nations, and she does so with every major country on Earth. One 18th century historian counted 95 Popes who claimed to have Divine power to depose kings and emperors.For instance, historian Walter James wrote that Pope Innocent III(12th century) "held all Europe in his nest." Do you know who was partly(some say substantially) responsible for the downfall of the mighty Soviet Union in the 80's? Yes, the Vatican, and John Paul II in particular; in short Rome, as it is called in international diplomatic parlance. Vatican City is absolutely unique.

Also note that at one point in history Rome was the centre of world trade and the Catholic hierarchy controlled much of that trade. Today the European Union is one of the centres of World Trade , and Rome(Vatican) once again plays a vital part in this traffic with shares in almost every conceievable European , and non-European business enterprise. She was (could still be) even involved in trade with the Italian Mafia!

In Rev. 18:14 the Catholic church is shown to traffic in world trade like the buying/selling of pearls, cargoes of gold,scarlet cloth,bronz, iron etc. including " the souls of men"! To this very day the Catholic Church makes mega millions by selling religious symbols, Catholic literature, rosary beads, Marion icons,etc. etc. to it's hundreds of millions of faithful . In the past she sold 'indulgences' for a fee.(I think she still does so!)

This ancient saying speaks volumes about Catholic Priests: Rome has the most Harlots because she also has the most celibates.
Demand does indeed create it's own supply.

[Pythagoras]

[QUOTE=mickiel]

Hi mickiel,



A novel idea, --- but unfesible for the following few reasons,among many others....(Let me put my Sherlock Holmes hat on.)

Well I understand why you cannot agree, what christian in his right mind would? I am not looking or fishing for agreement, I am simply enjoying myself.Looking more deeply into the blindness of mankind, and understanding more of what I see, and adding thanks to that. You do not have a Sherlock Holmes hat, you have a blind head. If you think catholics have more influence than christians, you just need to study more.

Talk of study more! Book time:

Holmes suggests you start with 'The Vatican Billions', by Avro Manhattan, Chick Publications.

Here's a sampler. Chapter 1:

"Jesus, the founder of Christianity, was the poorest of the poor. Roman Catholicism, which claims to be His church, is the richest of the rich, the wealthiest institution on earth…. How come, that such an institution, ruling in the name of this same itinerant preacher, whose want was such that he had not even a pillow upon which to rest his head, is now so top-heavy with riches that she can rival - indeed, that she can put to shame - the combined might of the most redoubtable financial trusts, of the most potent industrial super-giants, and of the most prosperous global corporation of the world?..."

etc.

[furay]

I'm sorry but when you quote from Chick Publications any credibility you had goes right out the window.

[panda]

Holmes,

"Also note that at one point in history Rome was the centre of world trade and the Catholic hierarchy controlled much of that trade. Today the European Union is one of the centres of World Trade , and Rome(Vatican) once again plays a vital part in this traffic with shares in almost every conceievable European , and non-European business enterprise. She was (could still be) even involved in trade with the Italian Mafia!"

I'm quite familiar with Catholic history...however, Revelation is about the future, not about the past, and although I agree that the RCC was a huge power player in the past, I don't think they have retained the power that they once had...they are less, not more, of a player today.

And while the RCC is certainly involved in world commerce (I don't deny that), I don't see them playing the pivotal role that the Whore plays in Revelation 18. It seems that Mystery Babylon is not "one of the major players," but rather, the CENTER of all commerce and trade, so much so that every business person and stockholder in the world will tear their clothes and mourn in sackcloth when she falls. I don't think this can be said, at the moment, of the Vatican.

Perhaps the RCC will become the central focus of the world at some point in the future, and the center of all commerce and trade, but at present, they are not, and until they are, I don't see how it can be Mystery Babylon.

Just my opinion! Thanks for listening...

Panda

[Jawa Man]

I'm surprised one thing that I will say (me being really cool) hasn't been mentioned yet! Hmm...

Well, Sherlock Holmes, since you seemed to find so many answers in "Elementary my dear Watson," I'm letting you know that I have at least an elementary school education. That's right, I have the knowledge of at least a 5th grader.

Beware.

So anyway, even before this EO stuff started happening, I believed (with a lot of others on this forum) that Mystery Babylon is the Roman Empire, and John's Antichrist is Caesar Nero (666 being the letters in Caesar Nero added together in Hebrew. Some versions say 616, which is Caesar Nero's letter added up in Latin. Remember, letters were used as numbers then.)

Revelation 18 talks a lot about Babylon getting her butt kicked by the 10 kings. Well, during Nero's reign and during the seven year long Jewish War, a Roman Civil War broke out that was so devastating that Nero killed himself. Vespasian, who was besieging Jerusalem at that time, left to fight in the Civil War, and being the victor, became Emperor. During this time an emperor named Galba ruled after Nero, but only for a short time (AD 68-January 69, assassination).

One of the big clues is when John says the seven heads are seven mountains and they are seven kings. Five have fallen, one is around now, and the next will rule for a short time.

Here is the list of emperors, from Julius Caesar and six emperors after him.

(Five who have fallen, or dead)
1)Julius Caesar
2)Augustus
3)Tiberius
4)Caligula
5)Claudius

(One who rules now)
6)Nero

(One who is coming who will rule for a short time)
7)Galba

We're told in the next verse one of these kings comes back as the eighth king. During this time there were some people that claimed Nero was again emporer, though he was dead, symbolically being reinstated.

Anyway, just some food for thought Mr. Holmes. Good day, gov'nah!

[revivalfire]

would someone...for the sake of clarity pleeeeeeeeeze define "christian"???

it seems to me, reading thru most of the forums here, that very few, and i do mean very few of the people here are...

as for the whore...well, i do believe it is the roman...hmmm, or should i say babylonian...religion.....

but more generally, the term sure could apply to all the "so-called' "christians' thru the years, who also persecuted the true church...

it would not take a very indepth study of history to see that there is a remnant of faithful followers of Jesus...and they have been persecuted by both the "catholic" and "protestant" 'church....as well as the pagans...

like Jesus said..."you shall know them by their fruits"...

I would agree, there are true Christians in all denominations...and that we need to seperate ourselves from those that we know have fallen away.... but that is easy when they persecute us all the time anyway... I.E. ...I'm of a Pentecostal Denomination (Yeah, I know...) I went to a Baptist organized school....I went head to head with my entire bible class and the teacher because we disagreed....there was another person in the class who went to my church but she just sat there... Teacher actually said that I was blatantly wrong.... Yeah..I know how it feels...(To all the Baptists...I know some who are true Christians too..that was just an example.. )

[Pythagoras]

Hi Panda,

however, Revelation is about the future, not about the past, and although I agree that the RCC was a huge power player in the past, I don't think they have retained the power that they once had...they are less, not more, of a player today.

Infact the Catholic church today is probably the richest it's ever been.

It seems that Mystery Babylon is not "one of the major players," but rather, the CENTER of all commerce and trade, so much so that every business person and stockholder in the world will tear their clothes and mourn in sackcloth when she falls. I don't think this can be said, at the moment, of the Vatican.

Now you're confusing the words of scripture.

Where does Rev. 18 say Mystery Babylon will be THE CENTRE OF ALL COMMERCE AND TRADE ?
Where does it say every business person and stockholder in the world will tear their clothes?
Here's scripture, Rev. 18:11: "The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes anymore--cargoes of gold, silver,precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple , silk and scarlet cloth;every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory. costly wood, bronz, iron and marble, incense, myrr..olive oil,..and bodies and souls of men."

If you read carefully you will at once realize that the merchants who deal with the sale of religious paraphanelia would be affected by her downfall-- those dealing in gold, silver, precious stones and pearls(for decorating her many churches, adorning her cardinals, priests etc), fine linen, purple,silk and scarlet cloth (attire for the leaders of the Church,-- Cardinals, Priests, Bishops, Pope), incense, myrr, olive oil etc.(for use in her churches),and bodies and souls of men(sale of religious items like rosaries, Marion icons, etc.)

Rev. 18:15,"The merchants who sold these things and gained their wealth from her will stand far off, terified at her torment.They will weep and mourn and cry out:.."

But no business person would rejoice at her destruction, obviously, even those who haven't had dealings with her. For example, can you imagine any sane stockbroker relishing the thought of NY bursting into flames?, the ensuing financial shock waves would spell trouble for all business people . Same principle.


Rev. also says "every sea captain, and all who travel by ship.. will stand far off... They will throw dust on their heads and with weeping and mourning, cry out:.." Obviously every sea captain worth his salt has had dealings with the European Union, of which Rome is a part .
In the same way, if New York burst into flames tomorrow, every sea captain would also throw dust on their heads and with weeping and mourning, cry out, even those who have never actually been to NY. It's just a way of saying NY is an important port of call. But that hardly implies NY is the centre of World Trade. The Bible nowhere suggest Babylon the Great will be THE centre of worldwide commerce and trade, only that it would be a player.

[Pythagoras]

Holmes to Java,

I believed (with a lot of others on this forum) that Mystery Babylon is the Roman Empire, and John's Antichrist is Caesar Nero (666 being the letters in Caesar Nero added together in Hebrew. ..One of the big clues is when John says the seven heads are seven mountains and they are seven kings. Five have fallen, one is around now, and the next will rule for a short time.

Here is the list of emperors, from Julius Caesar and six emperors after him.

(Five who have fallen, or dead)
1)Julius Caesar
2)Augustus
3)Tiberius
4)Caligula
5)Claudius

(One who rules now)
6)Nero

(One who is coming who will rule for a short time)
7)Galba

We're told in the next verse one of these kings comes back as the eighth king. During this time there were some people that claimed Nero was again emporer, though he was dead, symbolically being reinstated.

Anyway, just some food for thought Mr. Holmes. Good day, gov'nah!

Greetings,

There's only one big problem. Rev. 17:3 says the Woman sits on this 7 headed monster. She coudn't possibly be sitting on herself , now could she?


"Then the Angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns."

Obviously the Woman and the Seven Headed Monster are two separate entities. Or have they both been transubstantiated into one body and flesh?

Good Day, I must find my pipe.....

[mickiel]

[QUOTE=Pythagoras]Talk of study more! Book time:

Holmes suggests you start with 'The Vatican Billions', by Avro Manhattan, Chick Publications.



Who has more influence? Pope John Paul-Catholic, George Bush- Christian. Which one has more power? Rome or the U.S.A.? If you were the devil, or God, and wanted to choose a way to deceive the world, which would you use, Rome, or the U.S.A.? If I wanted to teach the world perversion, I would lift up America. If I wanted to confuse the world spiritually, I would use christianity. If I wanted to deceive the whole world, I would use the world leader. That is not catholics or Rome, It is christians and America. This is what I believe.

[Pythagoras]

Hi mickel,

Holmes thinks you're going off on a tangent.

Who has more influence? Pope John Paul-Catholic, George Bush- Christian.

Who says George Bush is a real Christian? To be fair, only God knows his soul however. But even if he was a Christian , you have no point; Bush is not the dictator of the USA,-- they have checks and balances: the Senate, Congress, Superme Court, , universal suffrage, etc.. Bush will be gone in 4 years, unless ofcourse you think he's the anti-Christ.

Which one has more power? Rome or the U.S.A.?

What's the point? Where does it say the Whore of Babylon would have to be the most powerful financial and military entity on Earth?

If you were the devil, or God, and wanted to choose a way to deceive the world, which would you use, Rome, or the U.S.A.?

Rome(Popery), because the Vatican is at least 1600 years old where else the USA is barely 300. Besides, Rome has a billion faithful followers, many in America. America is having a hard time spreading Democracy even in Iraq. Surely Rome.

If I wanted to teach the world perversion, I would lift up America

What on earth are you mumbling about?

If I wanted to confuse the world spiritually, I would use christianity

Why not Catholicism?-- Transubstantiation is a perfect example. Mary as co-redemptrix as another, etc.. The Devil is using the perfect device in the form of the Catholic Church to deceieve the World.He's been at it for a long time now. Infact even before the Catholic Church adopted Christ, it was deceieving the World in the form of the Mystery Babylonian Religion, which is at least 4000 years old.

If I wanted to deceive the whole world, I would use the world leader.

Actually, the Devil would use exactly such a leader. He's spoken off in the Revelation. He's the anti-Christ.And you know what, he would hate the Whore of Babylon, or the Catholic Church. So watch out.

That is not catholics or Rome, It is christians and America. This is what I believe

You're entitled to your opinion.

[mickiel]

Why not Catholicism?-- Transubstantiation is a perfect example. Mary as co-redemptrix as another, etc.. The Devil is using the perfect device in the form of the Catholic Church to deceieve the World.He's been at it for a long time now. Infact even before the Catholic Church adopted Christ, it was deceieving the World in the form of the Mystery Babylonian Religion, which is at least 4000 years old.



Think man, think. Its not them, that is tooo easy. Its you, now thats more hard to swallow. Its me, that we can never see. Its perfect seduction. Its me, you and I. We are the whore, and we fit it like a glove.

[Jawa Man]

You're right, Holmes, Rome would not sit on itself. I decided to brush up on my preterism and found this, tektonics.org:

tektonics.org

Commentators from all schools have no significant disagreement about what John means when he refers to "seven mountains." The seven hills of the city of Rome are undoubtedly in view. Some say we have a view here of the Roman Catholic church. More commonly it is said that Rome will be the HQ for a coming anti-guy. But who is the harlot? Some say that is Roman Catholicism, but in light of what we have seen so far, the woman who rides the beast is a parody of the pure bride of Christ, and represents the rejected and apostate Jerusalem which did not recognize its Messiah, riding upon Rome in order to take advantage of its protection and authority and persecuting the church (17:6). The many images of apostate Israel as a harlot in the OT (Is. 1:21, Jer. 2:20-3:13, Hosea 9:1, Ezekiel 16) support this view.

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