Identity of the Great Whore of Babylon

[ross3421]

Dear ross3421:

Yes, of course, just like it talks about in I Thess. 4:16: "...the dead in Christ shall rise first..." (etc.)

Perhaps you will like this........

The dead in Christ shall rise first

Those who believe in a Rapture see the events occurring like this:

Dead in Christ arise - > Tribulation Period - > Second Coming of Christ
Alive/remain caught up

However scripture shows the following in relation to the resurrection:

Tribulation Period - > Second Coming of Christ - > Dead in Christ arise

Thus, the alive and remain would follow the dead in Christ after the Tribulation Period.

The gathering of the godly and ungodly happens together within the same time frame. Godly being first, ungodly being second.

Matt 25:31,32."When the son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit on his upon throne of glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats".

John 11:24."Martha said unto him, I know that he (Lazarus) shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day".

John 12:48."He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one the judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day”.

Now, let’s go to one of the key verses of all…….

I Cor 15: 20-24."But now is Christ risen from the dead, and became the first fruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that our Christ's at his coming. then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom of god....."

Once again the sequence of events; Christ returns, then afterwards the dead in Christ rise and the end of this world comes with the appearance of the kingdom of God. Note, that when Christ returns above it is followed by the "end" not a Tribulation Period. Also stated again is that we "all" die, there is no escape.

Rev 20: 5,6."But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power..."

Clearly here the bible states that the first resurrection takes place after the Tribulation Period at some point and that this is the first thus, it would be contrary to scripture to have another “first” resurrection or a "catching up" prior to the Tribulation Period.

Rev 11:18"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shoudest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear his name, small and great: and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth".

Again, we see at the 7th trumpet at the end of the Tribulation Period both dead believers and the unsaved about to be resurrected and judged. Note that this occurs at the end of the Tribulation Period! not prior.

Great White Throne is judgement for all

Rev 20:11,12"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away; and there was no place found for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God: and the books were opened: and another book was opened which was the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works".

Here above we see the first group of those before God, this is the first resurrection. This is the dead in Christ arising first. Why do we know these are believers mentioned here; their referred to as "small and great" which were those who "feared his name" in the above verse Rev. 11:18. We see them "stand" before god; Psalms 1:5 states that the ungodly will not stand in the judgment. The book of life is present; Rev 3:5 states the lord will confess the names of those written in this book, the ungodly have been blotted out. And yes, we are judged according to our works as for a reward which is supported by II Cor. 5:10 the same verse which those who claim a Rapture use to support separate judgements??.

In addition, a common misinterpretation is to take the phrase "and there was no place found for them" and apply it below to the dead, small and great. However, it is speaking to which sentence it is found, to the old heaven and earth. Now let's see the second resurrection, the resurrection of the ungodly.

Rev 20:13"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works".

We know that these are the ungodly being judged but are these delivered here just those that happened to die in the oceans ect...hardly. The "sea" mentioned here is no ordinary sea but the abyss, the bottomless pit. We also see in Rev. 13:1 the beast rising up out of this sea which is earlier referred to as the bottomless pit in Rev. 11:7. He does not rise out of an "multitude of people" which has been incorrectly taught. Also, unlike the group prior there is no mention of the book of life and they are just judged according to their works.

We have clearly seen that the “dead in Christ shall rise first” occurring at the end of the Tribulation Period. This would mean that the “we which are alive and remain” being caught up must have to also happen at the end of the Tribulation Period and not prior !! This understanding alone discredits a pre or mid Rapture Theory, study it again for yourself!!


With a shout, voice of an archangel, and with the trump of God

The above signals an event about to happen, "the dead in Christ shall rise first" the resurrection. Now if we were to believe in a Rapture which will suddenly without warning take thousands of people then how can it be signaled by a “shout”, a “voice”, or a “trump” ?.

We have clearly shown that the resurrection takes place at the end of the Tribulation Period both for the believer as well as for the wicked so these signals and sounds would also have to occur at the same time as well. Does scripture confirm this?

With a shout

The word “shout” when associated with the Lord is a signal to battle to slaughter not to rescue. Plainly, when the Lord shouts you better hide. This is a sound as Christ returns at his second coming and aligns with the other events at the end of the Tribulation Period.

Ps 47:2-6 “For the LORD most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth. He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet. He shall choose our inheritance for us, the excellency of Jacob whom he loved. Selah. God is gone up with a shout, the LORD with the sound of a trumpet. Sing praises to God, sing praises: sing praises unto our King, sing praises”.

Jer 25:29-33 “For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts. Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth. A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD. Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth. And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

Wow! The above verses are clearly describing the second coming whereby the earth is subdued by the sword. The same sword which which will smite the nations in Rev. 19:15. Also notice the Lord shall “roar” as seen as he returns (Isa.42:13, Ezek.19:7, Hosea 11:10, Joel 3:16, Amos 1:2, Rev.10:3). We also just so happen to see a “voice” to be uttered and a “trumpet” to be sounded.

With a voice

John 5:25,28,29"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. V28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation".

Above we see that the “voice” spoken is associated with a resurrection of the dead in Christ not a Rapture. Also, again "all", good and evil, shall come forth and be resurrected at the sound of his voice not just the "dead in Christ". This is further support of the resurrection taking place at the end of the Tribulation Period.

Trump

I Cor. 15: 51,52."Behold I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be all be changed".

It is so hard to believe that there are those of the faith who use this verse to support a Rapture. First it states that “all” shall be changed so are we saying that this means not “all” but only those who are living on the earth at a certain time? Clearly not, for he is speaking of those which are asleep, dead in the grave. This is confirmed in the next verse with the dead being raised up. Furthermore, we see that it is at the "last trump" the dead in Christ are resurrected and changed and put on immortality. This "last trump" cannot occur prior to the Tribulation Period because seven trumpets still are yet to sound and thus would not be the last trump. Paul has been speaking of a resurrection for the entire chapter and now slips in one verse denoting a Rapture?

Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die! (1 Cor 15:36).

Rev 10:7."But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he declared to his servants the prophets".

Rev 11:14,15,18."The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever...... and the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them that destroy the earth".

Why is the 7th trump the last trump? We see the mystery of God is finished; and most important it ushers in the Lord's return for he comes quickly (Rev 2:5,16,3:11,22:7). The trump of God is the last trump which sets the stage for a resurrection not a supposed Rapture.

We have seen that with a shout, a voice of an archangel, and with a trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first all clearly occurring at the end of the Tribulation Period. Thus eliminating a possibility of a Rapture prior to the Tribulation Period. OK, but how do you explain the "alive and remain"? Who are they?

Then we which are alive and remain refers to the resurrected

Is Paul speaking here of "alive in the flesh" an earthly body? Why would he then speak this to thosewho he knew would be long dead and not be here at that time which he confirms in the next chapter?. Why would they care? They were concerned with those who were, "asleep", already dead and what would happen to them. Paul here is speaking of being "alive" after being resurrected!!.

I Cor 15:20-22"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and became the firstfruits of then that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so all should be made "alive".

We see above the resurrection of the dead and then those made “alive”. We are made "alive" after death at the resurrection. This is the same in which Paul was speaking "the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive (after resurrection)".


God Bless.

[stephen goswami]

Christ forgave repentant whores. We are no better as we also live compromising lives. So, coming out means repenting permanently as we and the churches must compromise to live in this devil’s kingdom. Only the martyrs can claim clearance.

[stephen goswami]

I also grew out of R.C. church after being converted into it from paganism. But, for me their pagan practices were a stepping stone towards Christ. So we must forgive compromising by churches and persons as we all are pagan by heart.

Christ forgave repentant whores. We are no better as we also live compromising . So, coming out means repenting permanently as we and the churches must compromise to live in this devil’s kingdom. Only the martyrs can claim clearance.

[Rushing Jaws]

## I think the WoB is Jerusalem just before, or early in, the war which resulted in the destruction of the Temple in AD 70; see also the description of "the blood of all the righteous from the beginning of the world" in Matthew 24, & compare with Rev. 17.

IMHO, Greek ge = Heb. eretz; so IMHO it should probably be understood as "land (of Israel)", rather than as "(entire) earth". See also Ezekiel 16 (or is it 23 ?) - the lament for BtG in Rev. 17 & 18, is taken from that for Tyre in Ezekiel

As for the false prophet - I think that is a composite personification both of the Roman and Jewish priesthoods, one being seen through the other, much as the angels of the seven churches are combined with the human bishops of those churches, so that one is described, or addressed, as though it were the other.

I think the great red dragon is also, in those different ways, the Roman legions against Jerusalem, and the devil attacking the Jerusalem Church, so that it "fled into the wilderness".

As for the CC - I think the words about BtG are applicable to the CC, and to any Church, or to any society, but that it is not the CC that is being directly denounced. Any society at all - such as Churches, nations, or whatever - is perfectly capable of behaving like a BtG: whether one thinks of the USA, the UN, the CC, the Southern Baptist Convention, banks, political parties: any society of human beings is capable of hellish attitudes; even if it's not the CC It is those attitudes, and everything else in nations, churches, other groups, or individuals, that will not submit to the Kingship of Christ (including of course the dross in our own lives) that brings BtGs into being.

One cannot escape the spirit of BtG by leaving a group, but only by repentance and conversion. Groups as such are not the real problem - the problem is in the corrupted and sinful heart of man; including Christian man; deal with that corruption, and there is no foundation left in the heart for BtG. Don't deal with it - and BtG can be built up in the heart. "It is not what go into a man that defiles him" - but what comes out of him: visible things are not the problem, but unrighteousness, pride, anger, wrath, hypocrisy, lust, lies and other BtG-ish things. Where there is unvanquished evil - there, is BtG. Equating BtG with a single unique or identifiable, externally-visible group, is too easy - it lets us off from facing our own corruption. ##

[Jude3b]

Hi,


Good argument....

But we must entertain the possibility that the Protestant Church(the bastard child) is forgiven of God because this church extracted itself from the Catholic entity; if indeed as we suppose, the Catholic Church be the Great Whore of Babylon.

Let me explain. In Chapter 18 an angel counsels people to come out of the Whore of Babylon(presumably the Catholic church). And those who leave her will not share in her plagues.

Rev. 18:4








So if the Catholic Church indeed be the Whore of Babylon, the Protestant Church(the illegitimate bastard child, as you term it ) is forgiven because he come out of her long ago .. .

All Christians that come out of the Whore - Roman Catholicism, will not share in her plagues - whether they simply remain a Christian or as a Christian also join a Protestant sect.

[SpiritWoman]

There's no doubt that the RCC retained some pagan rituals and "married" them to Christianity...some of which protestants continue to practice. (For example, I have a Christmas tree in my living room and celebrate a day on which Christ was NOT born!)

However, I'm not sure if the RCC is the Great Whore, because later in the chapter, she is revealed as the "great city which reigns over the kings of the earth." And in Chapter 18, "she' is described as the center of world trade...so much so, that all the merchants of the world will mourn her fall. In fact, this centralization of commerce seems to be the most important characteristic about her.

I agree that there is some connection to Rome...and I agree that there is also a spiritual connection...but as for the rest of the description, it's not true of Rome...at least, not at present...and it's certainly not true of the RCC.

Rome, as an empire of the past, has ties to ancient Babylon...and those ties were retained by the RCC when Christianity transitioned into Catholicism. However, that doesn't mean that the RCC IS the woman on the beast...perhaps the author is speaking of something that we haven't seen yet in our lifetime. Something as simple as the the re-centralization of commerce government in western Europe, in addition to the formation of a centralized world religion that would be an integral part of this "Rome" resurrection.

Panda

Sounds like some are actually recieving the message. From your post I have faith.

Why is it that anyone would think that revelations is talking about A denomination? If this were true then why would it be RCC? Why wouldn't it be Muslim or Mormonism or any other religion? Why is it that the children of Martin Luther and Calvin not guilty?

It would be a great surprise to all, as it is written in revelation that it will be, that the great Whore is the lost daughter of Wisdom. One who loves material riches far more than the earth "G_D's temple" itself. And is willing to sell her off to the highest bidder.

This is revealed everywhere on earth today, the richest are the Oil Kings and manufacturers of poisons that are released into G_d's temple, the ignorant are the consumers, who buy the whore's wears on every street corner in the world. In the meantime people are dieing from cancer contributed by these poisons, they are dieing and starving for thier wars for control of these atrocities.

Fit revelations into a pattern that is really being played out today. You can do this just by following His commandments.

It is ignorance that is the Great Whore of Babylon, and the hidden is Wisdom behind the veil of truth which we as servants must reveal as it is written in proverbs. As it was the very teaching of Jesus in his existence and ways of life as well as the gift of his words.

SW

[Jude3b]

Sounds like some are actually recieving the message. From your post I have faith.

Why is it that anyone would think that revelations is talking about A denomination? If this were true then why would it be RCC? Why wouldn't it be Muslim or Mormonism or any other religion? Why is it that the children of Martin Luther and Calvin not guilty?

It would be a great surprise to all, as it is written in revelation that it will be, that the great Whore is the lost daughter of Wisdom. One who loves material riches far more than the earth "G_D's temple" itself. And is willing to sell her off to the highest bidder.

This is revealed everywhere on earth today, the richest are the Oil Kings and manufacturers of poisons that are released into G_d's temple, the ignorant are the consumers, who buy the whore's wears on every street corner in the world. In the meantime people are dieing from cancer contributed by these poisons, they are dieing and starving for thier wars for control of these atrocities.

Fit revelations into a pattern that is really being played out today. You can do this just by following His commandments.

It is ignorance that is the Great Whore of Babylon, and the hidden is Wisdom behind the veil of truth which we as servants must reveal as it is written in proverbs. As it was the very teaching of Jesus in his existence and ways of life as well as the gift of his words.

SW

Dear SW:

You ask some great questions in this post. Thank you for asking them. "WHY IS IT THAT ANYONE WOULD THINK THAT REVELATIONS IS ABOUT A DENOMINATION? ...WHY WOULD IT BE ABOUT THE RCC?"

Here is why and the answer is much, much simpler than you can imagine.

First off, in the book of Revelation is found in symbolic language history in advance of the conflicts of the true church of God - the body of Christ and the false (denominations and especially the Papal religion of Roman Catholicism, Cults, Islam, etc.). It covers the entire spectrum of time - from Christ living as a man on earth - the current gospel dispensation - all the way until the final consummation.

Check out some keys to understanding the book of Revelation: First, Jesus appeared to John on the Isle of Patmos. Jesus told John to: "Write the things with thou hast seen (the things that have taken place since John was a child), and the things which are (what was happening at that time, in 95 A.D.), and the things which shall be herafter; (the entire history in advance of the church age - right up to the final consummation)." (Rev. 1:19).

John was to view and write down history in advance and he wrote it in symbolic language... and its great underlying principle is based on Analogy. An object is chosen to represent not itself, but something of analagous character. I know this might be very confusing to you. What does he mean? Analagous language.

Take a look with me at Webster quickly: Webster defines symbol as follows: "The sign or representation of any moral thing by the images or properties of natural things. Thus, a lion is the symbol of courage; the lamb is the symbol of meekness or patience."

What did I mean by all that, you ask! Well, think about this for a moment: the church of God - the body of Christ was born on a (symbolic) battelfield; her warfare has filled the pages of history in every generation, and she is seen at the end of time entrenched in her most vicious battle - Armageddon! Three great wars have been fought (in symbolic language history in advance) - and won by true Christianity. The first was a struggle with the dragon of paganism; the second was with the beast of papalism (the Whore of Babylon); the third was an encounter with the evils of the false prophets of the Cults, Islam, etc (the harlot daughters of the Whore of Babylon). In the final conflict, the church of God - the body of Christ is faced with all three as a trinity of evil. Satan has combined his forces in the final attempt to destroy the chuch of God - the body of Christ.

But thank God, the gates of hell cannot and will not prevail against her.

So, to answer your question. Why does anyone think that Revelations is about a denomination. The answer- because the Revelations is the history of the Christian church - the church of God - the body of Christ and its battles from the time of Christ, with paganism and than with the problem of the "falling away" - resulting in religious Papal Roman Catholicism and the further problems of the false Cults, Islam, etc.. At the end time, all three will wage war against the saints of the church of God - the body of Christ (and that is the battle of Armageddon - when paganism, Roman Catholicism, Cults and Islam all raise themelves up to attempt to wipe out the church of God - the body of Christ.) God will not allow this to happen.. "the gates of hell cannot prevail against her."

[Joe Gofish]

Who is this prostitute?

Rev. 17

"1One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters. 2With her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.”


3Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. 5This title was written on her forehead: MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

When I saw her, I was greatly astonished. 7Then the angel said to me: “Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns. 8The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come. 9“This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.

Jude what you are saying has been proven false so many thing you must be the only Ati-catholic bigot still using this,Hunt argues that the Whore "is a city built on seven hills," which he identifies as the seven hills of ancient Rome. This argument is based on Revelation 17:9, which states that the woman sits on seven mountains.

The Greek word in this passage is horos. Of the sixty-five occurrences of this word in the New Testament, only three are rendered "hill" by the King James Version. The remaining sixty-two are translated as "mountain" or "mount." Modern Bibles have similar ratios. If the passage states that the Whore sits on "seven mountains," it could refer to anything. Mountains are common biblical symbols, often symbolizing whole kingdoms (cf. Ps. 68:15; Dan. 2:35; Amos 4:1, 6:1; Obad. 8–21). The Whore’s seven mountains might be seven kingdoms she reigns over, or seven kingdoms with which she has something in common.

The number seven may be symbolic also, for it often represents completeness in the Bible. If so, the seven mountains might signify that the Whore reigns over all earth’s kingdoms.

Even if we accept that the word horos should be translated literally as "hill" in this passage, it still does not narrow us down to Rome. Other cities are known for having been built on seven hills as well.

Even if we grant that the reference is to Rome, which Rome are we talking about—pagan Rome or Christian Rome? As we will see, ancient, pagan Rome fits all of Hunt’s criteria as well, or better, than Rome during the Christian centuries.

Now bring in the distinction between Rome and Vatican City—the city where the Catholic Church is headquartered—and Hunt’s claim becomes less plausible. Vatican City is not built on seven hills, but only one: Vatican Hill, which is not one of the seven upon which ancient Rome was built. Those hills are on the east side of the Tiber river; Vatican Hill is on the west.
Jude you need to stop reading books by Hunt and your other friend Jack Chick and start to try and get the hate out of you.I'm still praying for you and hope you come home B4 it is to late.

[Joe Gofish]

Rome and Roman Catholicism got married in 312 A.D. -
This Roman Church is a fornicator in the sense that she left her first love (God) and got married to Paganism.

Jude why do you keep telling lies about the Church,Roman Catholicism do not appear until 1054.
PLEASE TELL US WHERE YOU GET THE DATE OF 312AD,JUDE I WILL GIVE YOU 50 PEARLS IF YOU WILL ANSWER ONE QUESTION

[Jude3b]

Jude why do you keep telling lies about the Church,Roman Catholicism do not appear until 1054.
PLEASE TELL US WHERE YOU GET THE DATE OF 312AD,JUDE I WILL GIVE YOU 50 PEARLS IF YOU WILL ANSWER ONE QUESTION

Dear Joe Gofish:

I know you didn't learn very much geography or history in your school days, but have you ever heard of Constantine? He was the one who stopped the persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire about 312 A.D. and by 313 A.D., as emperor of Rome - made Christianity legal.

I personally believe that a large portion of so-called Christianity had become so apostate by 270 A.D. that ritualism, traditionalism and damnable heresies had already crept into the church that it could be called Roman Catholicsm by that time.

Joe, that is not to say that they had a building with a sign, that said "Roman Catholic Church above their front door. I only mean that the body of Christ - the church of God was no longer the only VISIBLE church by 270 A.D. There were many "religionists" by that time and it got worse and worse and in 313 A.D. when Christianity was legalized - Paganism was in large part married to the fallen version of Christianity and it became known later on as Roman Catholicism. By the end of the third century - the AntiChrist Papal system would be put in place and it would all be down hill from there for at least the next 1000 years or more until the Reformation would start and the trend would start to be reversed.

Today, many, many Christians are coming to see that there is only one church - the church of God - the body of Christ. In my opinion, One cannot see that unless they are born-again, saved, washed in the blood of the lamb and love God above all else.

[stephen goswami]

Materialistic consumerism, infecting all churches and societies, is the GWB as defined by commerce implication. The widespread distrust of spiritual values, soul and eternity has drawn us into it. We can extricate us from it by repentance for our original sin (we committed in heaven where our soul were created by Heavenly Father, the unity of heavenly parents) and present sins. The last is the shadow of the former. We had destroyed heaven (rev-12-7) and falling as refugees here, are going to destroy the earth now. Our souls are going to disintegration (eternal death) by consumerism and falsehood entertainments of mass media. Only deep repentance for this can draw us out of this death trap by martyr level effort.

[Anoetos]

I believe the Apostle was referring to the Roman Empire of his day but that by extension it would refer to any imperial entity which has set itself against Christ and His Church so today it could be radical Islam or it could be Western Secularism or any number of things.

I believe it is foolish to obsess about such things.

Cling to the Cross. Be constant in attendance upon Word and Sacrament.

[bridgeforsale]

Almost certainly the great city that sits on seven hills was Rome. There are several clear hints that indicate this:

1) Go back to Chap. 2 Revelations, where it calls Pergamum the city where satan sits. At the time of John Pergamum (in today's Turkey) was essentially the capital of paganism. It was the seat of the emperor worship cult; and the central Pagan temples. Paganism was the symbol of satan referred to by the angel.

2. In Chapter 17 where it discusses the Harlot John states that he saw that the woman was drunk on the blood of the saints & the witnesses to Jesus. Rome killed many of the saints & of course Saint Peter & Andrew (witnesses to Christ).

3. At the end of Chap. 17 it clearly states the woman is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.

All of these clues can only fit Rome. What is less clear is who the beast she was riding on is, however, we do know the various beasts (beast of the sea, earth, etc) are spawns of satan. To view the beast as for example the Catholic Church is unreasonable in my view, since the beast was, is not now, but will come again briefly (it can hardly be said that the Catholic Church has only existed "briefly" or for one hour as Revelations puts it).

The only clue I find to the beast is that Rome (the woman) was riding it in John's vision given by the angel, while at the same time that beast is a product of Rome that didn't exist at the time of John's vision (as the beast is an "eighth king" of the seven). Something that Rome both created and fed on that had temporarily disappeared? It had names of blasphamies written on it (indicating it wasn't anything good). My theory is that perhaps the vision was not completely present tense. I think it may have been given to John in God's concept of time (omnipresent). In other words, the beast was perhaps paganism. John, looking into the future foresaw the fall of Rome (along with the fall of paganism) & the rise of Christianity. The reason why the mystery was understood by John (indicated by the angel explaining that he is revealing the mystery of the woman & beast to John) yet we have a hard time with understanding the way John wrote it is that John (as a man) couldn't properly explain the vision because it was given to him in God's language. God's concept of time (the past & future are ever present) is incomprehensible to man (which may help explain why God had to send his son in the form of man to ensure that we properly understood His message, which may have been misunderstood by the Israelites in the first place.....I admit I'm taking a leap here).

Perhaps paganism or some other form of aberration to God will rise again. Perhaps even a Roman type power will rise for a brief period prior to the anti-Christ coming. For me the most important message is to be ready. Revelations gives us good ideas about the things to be careful of, but IMO it's not ripe for understanding.

[Dee Dee Warren]

The great whore of Babylon was apostate Jerusalem.

[bridgeforsale]

The great whore of Babylon was apostate Jerusalem.

Viable theory.....in fact if that is true it gives credence to my view that the vision John received was given to him in God's concept of time (which for us might seem to bounce back & forth between the past, present, and future). Your view would necessitate that Jerusalem makes is reunited & comes to weild great influence over the "kings of the earth." This would comport with the dispensationalist view (that most or none of the events described in Revelations occurred yet). Like I said though it's too difficult IMO to make a conclusive statement.....but I agree your view is at least as viable as the Rome theory.