Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 57

Thread: The Omnipotence and Omniscience of Jesus

  1. #1
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Posts
    1,334
    Amen (Given)
    0
    Amen (Received)
    3

    The Omnipotence and Omniscience of Jesus

    A. The words defined
    1. Omnipresent: the omnipresent God (Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, page 1005, NY: Gramercy Books, c. 1996).
    2. Omnipotent: (1) almighty, or infinite in power, as God or a deity (4) the Omnipotent, God (Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, page 1005, NY: Gramercy Books, c. 1996).
    3. Omniscient: (3) the Omniscient God (Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English
    Language, page 1005, NY: Gramercy Books, c. 1996).
    4. Almighty: (1) having unlimited power; omnipotent, as God or a deity (Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, page 41, NY: Gramercy Books, c. 1996).
    5. Omnipotence: The quality of having all power (The Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible 4:595, omnipotence, A. H. Leitch).
    6. Omnipotence: In God resides the power to produce and control everything that comes to pass. Nothing evades God's omnipotence (Dan. 4:35; Amos 9:2-3), and even the most minute things, such as the falling sparrow or the hairs of our head, are under his personal control (Matt. 10:30; Lk. 12:7). There is nothing accidental or incidental, and the thought of "omnipotence" merges easily into omnipresence (being present everywhere at all times) and omniscience (knowing all things) (The Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible 4:596, Omnipotence, A. H. Leitch).
    7. Omnipresence is closely related to omnipotence and omniscience, that is, God who is everywhere is able to act everywhere, and he acts in infinite wisdom at every point because he knows all things. He has access to all places and all secrets. The omnipresence of God, therefore, is a source of comfort and strength to the believer (The Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible 4:597, Omnipresence, A. H. Leitch).

    B. Matthew 6 - The Father sees in secret.
    1. Richard Watson: It is also most worthy of our notice, that when this duty is enjoined upon us by our Lord, he presents the Divine Being before us under a relation most of all adapted to inspire that unlimited confidence with which he would have us to approach him: - "Pray to thy Father which is in secret." Thus is the dread of his omniscience, indicated by his "seeing in secret," and of those other overwhelming attributes which omnipresence and omniscience cannot fail to suggest, mitigated, or only employed to inspire greater freedom, and a stronger affiance (Richard Watson, Theological Institutes, Volume 2, page 495).
    2. TDNT: He who penetrates all things regulates worship, Mt. 6:4, 6, 18 (5:991, pater, Schrenk).
    3. TDNT: Hence the disciples are not to be as the hypocrites. They must not give, pray, or fast so as to be seen by men. On the contrary, these things are to be done by them in the concealment in which only God can see them, Mt. 6:2-4, 5, 16 (8:568, hupokrinomai, Wilckens).
    4. Holman Bible Dictionary: Omniscience
    The state of being all-knowing which theology ascribes to God. Though Scripture affirms God's immeasurable understanding (Psalm 147:5), God's omniscience is not a matter of abstract speculation. Rather, God's knowing is a matter of personal experience. God knows us intimately (Psalm 139:1-6; Matthew 6:4, Matthew 6:4,6, 8). Such knowledge is cause for alarm for the unrighteous but for confidence for God's saints (Job 23:10; Psalm 34:15-16; Psalm 90:8; Proverbs 15:3; 1 Peter 3:12).
    http://www.studylight.org/dic/hbd/view.cgi?n=4710
    5. Since the Lord Jesus is prayed to this would prove that He is omniscient (God).
    a. NIDNTT: It is significant that, wherever the NT speaks of requests made to god, it emphasizes that such requests are heard (cf. Matt. 6:8; 7:7-11; 18:19; 21:22; Jn. 14:13f.; 15:7, 16; 16:23f., 26; 1 Jn. 3:22; 5:14f.; Jas. 1:5). It is as if the NT witnesses wished particularly to encourage men to pray, by assuring the suppliant that his requests are heard by God. The NT is aware that this certainty keeps all prayer alive; let such certainty become weakened or diminished through doubt, and prayer dies...In prayer we are never to forget whom we are addressing: the living God, the almighty One with whom nothing is impossible, and from whom therefore all things may be expected (2:857, Prayer, H. Schonweiss).
    b. NIDOTTE: Prayer is, indeed a serious matter. It is regarded in the Bible as the most fundamental of all expressions of religion. It concerns the deepest feelings and most central motivation of the persons who are offering their prayer to their God, and it concerns the covenant relationship, with its blessings and sanctions, as the inevitable fabric of the living communion between the people and their God. To pray is an act of faith in the almighty and gracious God, who responds to the prayers of his people (4:1062, Prayer, P. A. Verhoef).
    c. Side note: The above citations do no help to those who claim that the Lord Jesus is not God but He can still receive prayer. If the Lord Jesus is not omniscient then He wouldn't be able to judge every motive and thought each audible or silent prayer carries. Furthermore, if He were not omnipotent/Almighty then He may not be able to always act on all the prayers He receives.

    C. Matthew 28:18
    And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth (Matthew 28:18, KJV).
    1. The Greek word pantokratwr is translated into English as "Almighty". In Revelation 19:6 the KJV translates it as "omnipotent" while the NASB renders it "Almighty". To be omnipotent (all-powerful) means the same thing as being Almighty.
    a. NIDNTT: The term pantokratwr, the Almighty, the Lord of all, occurs both in connexion with OT quotations (2 Cor. 6:18; cf. Hos. 1:10; Isa. 43:6) and independently (Rev. 1:8; 4:8; 11:17; 15:3; 16:7, 14; 19:6, 15; 21:22). In both cases the title serves to describe the immense greatness of God. He has power over all men and all things (3:718, Strength, G. Braumann).
    b. NIDNTT: To the OT phrase kyrios ho theos the author of Rev. sometimes adds an emphatic, solemn pantokratwr, All-Sovereign (Rev. 1:8; 4:8; 11:17; 16:7; 19:6; 21:22; cf. Arndt, 613f.) (2:513,514, Lord, H. Bietenhard).
    c. Danker: Almighty, All-Powerful, Omnipotent (One) (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, pantokratwr, page 755).
    d. EDNT: almighty, ruler over all*
    This interpretation of the epithet as "Yahweh the powerful" or "Yahweh the almighty" corresponds to the primary translation found in the LXX, kurios pantokratwr (3:11, pantokratwr, H. Langkammer).
    e. Louw/Nida: (a title for God, literally 'all powerful') - 'the Almighty, the One who has all power' (Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains, 12.7, pantokratwr, page 139).
    f. Mounce: pantokratwr is a compound of the two Greek words meaning "all" and "power"-thus either "the Almighty" or "the all-powerful One" (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Almighty, page 15).
    g. Thayer: he holds sway over all things; the ruler of all; almighty (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, pantokratwr, page 476).
    h. Vine: almighty, or ruler of all (pas, all, kratew, to hold, or to have strength) (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Almighty, page 40).

    2. Matthew 28:18 teaches that the Lord Jesus possesses "all-power" in all places (heaven and earth) which is the same thing as being Almighty (see the definitions above).
    a. TDNT: His omnipotence, in which Christ shares as kurios (1 C. 8:6; Col. 1:16; Mt. 28:18), extends over the whole world, over heaven and earth (1:679, ge, Sasse).
    b. A.H. Leitch: Christ possesses the attributes of God: omnipotence (Matt. 28:18) (The Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible 2:92, deity of Christ).
    c. Thayer: Christ, appointed by God the leader and lord of the citizens of the divine kingdom, is said to have all power in heaven and on earth, Mt. 28:18 (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, ouranos, page 465).
    d. NIDNTT: The exaltation of the Son confirms that all authority (-> Might) has been given to him (Matt. 28:18) (NIDNTT 1:95, All, F. Graber).
    e. NIDNTT: All power in heaven and on earth has been given to the Risen One (Matt. 28:18) (NIDNTT 2:194, Heaven, H. Bietenhard).
    f. Vine: the power of one whose will and commands must be obeyed by others, e.g., Matt. 28:18 (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Authority, page 81).
    g. Danker: the right to control or command, authority, absolute power, warrant
    Of Jesus' total authority Mt 28:18 (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, exousia, page 353).
    h. TDNT: The inclusion of heaven and earth in the saving event in Jesus Christ means that no entity in heaven or on earth can possess autonomy: Mt. 28:18. By the resurrection all power has been placed exclusively in the hands of the risen Lord (5:518, ouranos, Traub).
    i. NIDOTTE: Jesus Christ, after his resurrection, was given all power in heaven and on earth (Matt 28:18) (4:166, samayim, David Toshio Tsumura).
    Last edited by foudroyant; 04-15-2014 at 03:57 AM.

  2. #2
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Posts
    1,334
    Amen (Given)
    0
    Amen (Received)
    3
    3. Some may claim that since the Lord Jesus was "given" this power it proves that He is not God.
    a. If God the Father created another omnipotent being then that means there are two that are Almighty. The Bible teaches there is only one Almighty God.
    Those who believe the Lord Jesus is God can account for the fact that he was "given" all power in that He simply refused to always employ His omnipotence but those who deny the Lord Jesus is God are unable to satisfactorily explain that the Lord Jesus has (right now) all power - He is omnipotent/Almighty.
    b. TDNT: Elsewhere, however, it is said of the Redeemer during His earthly life that He has laid aside His power and appeared in lowliness and humility, Mt. 11:29; 12:18-21; 2 C. 8:9; Phil. 2:5-8 -> kenow 3, 661, 13-28, cf. the temptation of Jesus, Mt. 4:8 f. par. Lk. 4:5 f. Thus, when the full power of Jesus is occasionally mentioned during the time of His humiliation, it is merely a proleptic fact.
    A new situation is brought into being with the crucifixion and resurrection. The Chosen One seizes the full power which He had from the beginning of the world, Mt. 28:18: "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth". Cf. the proclamations of the heavenly King in Rev., e.g., concerning Alpha and Omega (5:895, pas, Reicke).
    c. Leon Morris: He is making clear that the limitations that applied throughout the incarnation no longer apply to him. He has supreme authority throughout the universe (Pillar New Testament Commentary, page 745-746).
    Footnote #28 on the meaning of exousia reads: It comes to mean "authority, absolute power" and is used here "of Jesus' absolute authority" (BAGD, 3).
    d. TDNT: Here the phrase morphe doulou acquires its significance from the contrast on the one side with morphe theou and on the other with the title and dignity of kurios with which Jesus is invested at the end of the passage. It denotes the entry of Jesus into humanity, or more strictly what this means for Him in relation to the power and glory which He possessed and which He therefore renounced (2:278, doulos, Rengstorf).
    Renounce: to give up or put aside voluntarily (Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, page 1215, Gramercy Books, c.1996).
    e. Thayer: a most glorious condition, most exalted state; a. of that condition with God the Father in heaven to which Christ was raised after he had achieved his work on earth: Lk. 24.26; Jn. 17:5 (where he is said to have been in the same condition before his incarnation, and even before the beginning of the world) (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, doxa, page 156).
    f. Thayer: of God exalting, or rather restoring, Christ his Son to a state of glory in heaven; Jn. 7:39; 12:16, [23]; 13:31 sq.; 17:1, 5; Acts 3:13 (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, doxazw, page 157).

    4. The JW's affirm that the Lord Jesus is the Almighty (Matthew 28:18).
    a. The JW's believe that God is Almighty (omnipotent):
    He is all-powerful, being the Almighty God. (Ge 17:1; Re 16:14) “All things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of him,” and he is “the One telling from the beginning the finale.” (Heb 4:13; Isa 46:10, 11; 1Sa 2:3) His power and knowledge extend everywhere, reaching every part of the universe.—2Ch 16:9; Ps 139:7-12; Am 9:2-4 (Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 1, God, page 968).
    b. The JW's believe only God is Almighty (omnipotent)
    Jehovah alone is all-powerful and able to foretell events accurately (Isaiah’s Prophecy—Light for All Mankind II, Jehovah Teaches Us for Our Good, Chapter 9, page 120).
    c. What the JW's believe concerning the Lord Jesus:
    Could the only-begotten Son receive even more power and authority? Following Jesus’ death on earth and his resurrection, he said: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.” (Matthew 28:18) Yes, Jesus has been granted the ability and the right to exercise power universally. As “King of kings and Lord of lords,” he has been authorized to bring to “nothing all government and all authority and power”—visible and invisible—that stand in opposition to his Father. (Revelation 19:16; 1 Corinthians 15:24-26) God has “left nothing that is not subject to” Jesus—that is, with the exception of Jehovah himself.—Hebrews 2:8; 1 Corinthians 15:27.
    (Draw Close to Jehovah, "Christ the Power of God", Chapter 9)
    d. Of course God will not be subject to the Lord Jesus. They are EQUALLY all-powerful (Almighty).


    D. Acts 1:24-25
    And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place (Acts 1:24-25, KJV).
    1. See "Jesus as the heart-knower of all (καρδιογνώστης = omniscience)‏": http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ce%29%E2%80%8F
    Last edited by foudroyant; 04-15-2014 at 03:52 AM.

  3. #3
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Posts
    1,334
    Amen (Given)
    0
    Amen (Received)
    3
    E. 2 Corinthians 8:21
    for we have regard for what is honorable, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men. (2 Corinthians 8:21, NASB)
    a. Paul Barnett: Closely basing his words on LXX Prov 3:4, the apostle cites the important principle that his behavior in ministry must be open to the scrutiny of the Lord (i.e., of the Lord Jesus), but particularly of people. (The New International Commentary on the New Testament: The Second Epistle to the Corinthians, page 424)
    b. Frank Matera: Here, however, Paul may be influenced by the Septuagint text of Proverbs 3:4 ("in the sight of the Lord, and of men," enwpion kyriou kai anthrwpwn; trans. Brenton). Thus, he acts honorably before the Lord (Christ), and the Lord is always aware of this. But unlike the Lord, human beings do not always comprehend Paul's honorable intentions. (2 Corinthians: A Commentary, page 198).
    c. Gill: not only in the sight of the Lord: the same Lord as before, the Lord Jesus Christ, who is a diligent searcher of the hearts, and discerner of the thoughts, and observer of the ways and actions of all his people
    http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=46&ch=8

    F. Ephesians 4:10 (cf. Jeremiah 23:24)
    1. To be able to "fill" the heavens and the earth (the universe) teaches that God is omniscient and omnipresent.
    "Can a man hide himself in hiding places So I do not see him?" declares the LORD. "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" declares the LORD (Jeremiah 23:24, NASB).
    a. NIDNTT: God hides himself from man, but man cannot hide from God. God is the Lord who fills heaven and earth (Jer. 23:24). Everywhere man is surrounded by God's presence; God's eye sees even in the darkness, nothing is hid from him (Ps. 139:7-12, 15; Sir. 39:19). To flee from God, as the case of Jonah shows (Jon. 1:3), is therefore a hopeless quest. Above all, human sin is not hidden from God (Jer. 16:17). There is no gloom or darkness where evildoers can hide themselves (Job 34:22; Sir. 17:15, 20). Sinful man is therefore threatened by God on every side (2:215, Hide, W. Mundle).
    b. Mounce: Because God is omnipresent (Jer. 23:24b), he "sees" all things. "Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him?" (Jer. 23:24a); he also sees the tears of his people (Isa. 38:5). As God interacts with humans his sight is an ever-present reality; worship is literally called, "being seen at the face of the LORD" (Deut. 31:11; 1 Sam. 1:22) (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, See, page 623).
    c. NIDOTTE: In Jer 23:24 the omniscience of the Lord is expressed by the question: Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him?" (3:1009, r'h - see - Jackie A. Naude).
    d. NIDNOTTE: "Heaven and earth" is used to describe God as the only God (Deut 3:24), omnipresent (Deut 4:39; Jer 23:24 etc.) (4:160, samayim - heaven, sky, David Toshio Tsumura).

    2. The fact that Christ is able to "fill all things" proves that He is omniscient and omnipresent (cf. Jeremiah 23:24).
    He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things (Ephesians 4:10, NASB).
    a. TDNT: V. 10 shows wherein the unlimited power of Christ has its basis in His all-comprehensive descent and ascent, which took place so that He might fill all things. The context suggests that fill is to be taken here along the lines sketched under C. This statement is transferred from God to Christ (6:290-291, plerow, Delling).
    -> TDNT: C. God as the One who Fills the World in the Old Testament and Judaism.
    That there are no limits to God's knowledge Jer. 23:24 bases on the fact that He is omnipresent. Fig. one might say that His eye reaches to every corner (6:288, plerow, Delling).
    b. Thayer: Christ, exalted to share in the divine administration, is said to fill (pervade) the universe with his presence, power, activity, Eph. 4:10 (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, plerow, page 518).
    c. NIDNTT: Citing Ephesians 4:10 it applies "to Christ the OT statement that Yahweh fills heaven and earth. This is the consequence of the thought of Eph. 1:10 (cf. Col. 1:16, 20) that every created thing has its goal in Christ and has no independent existence apart from him" (2:195, Heaven, H. Bietenhard).
    d. Danker: Of Christ, who passed through all the cosmic spheres Eph 4:10 (cp. Jer 23:24) (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, plerow, page 827).

    G. 1 Peter 2:25
    For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls (1 Peter 2:25, NASB).
    1. See "Peter: The Worship of the Lord Jesus": http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...the-Lord-Jesus

    H. Revelation 5:6
    And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth (Revelation 5:6, NASB).
    a. TDNT: But the Lamb overcame death (5:5-6) and is omnipotent and omniscient (5:6) (1:341, Lamb, J. Jeremias).
    b. EDNT: In Revelation hepta plays an important role as an expression for the totality and fulness of God and his eschatological acts (2:47, Seven, H. Balz).
    c. Mounce: Where symbolism is implied (e.g., the numerous uses of seven in Revelation), the number apparently serves as a symbol for fulness or completion (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Seven, page 638).
    d. TDNT: On the seven horns (5:6) as a symbol of full power, keras, and on the seven eyes cf. Zech. 4:10 (the "seven eyes" of God) (2:633, Seven, Rengstorf).
    e. TDNT: In accordance with the symbolical meaning of the number seven (hepta) and of the figure of the horn, the seven horns of the Lamb express the divine plenitude of power (3:670, keras, Foerster). This is cited verbatim in the NIDNTT 3:715 (Strength, H.G. Link, J. Schattenmann)
    f. Vine: it generally expresses completeness, and is used most frequently in the Apocalypse (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Seven, page 1025).
    g. Robert H. Mounce: While it is true that a slaughtered lamb obviously connoted sacrifice, the lamb in John's vision is now standing upright, having "seven horns and seven eyes" - symbols of perfect power and wisdom (The New International Commentary on the New Testament: The Book of Revelation, page 132).
    h. Robert L. Thomas: Not only is He omnipotent, as indicated by His seven horns, He is also omniscient (Revelation 1-7: An Exegetical Commentary, page 392).
    i. International Standard Bible Encyclopedia: (4) Apocalyptic Use of Seven.
    There cannot be a shadow of doubt that 7 for him expressed fullness, completeness (Number).
    http://www.studylight.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?n=6400
    j. The 1901 Jewish Encyclopedia: Seven: The most sacred number (Numbers and Numerals).
    http://www.studylight.org/enc/tje/view.cgi?n=11618
    k. Number, Numeral: Seven is used frequently in the Scriptures to signify completeness (Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2, page 510).

    I. Revelation 5:12
    saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing" (Revelation 5:12, NASB).
    a. NIDNTT: In Revelation sophia is praised in two hymnic texts as an attribute of God (Rev. 7:12; cf. also Rom. 16:27); it is also to be attributed to the slain Lamb at his exaltation (Rev. 5:12). The exalted Christ has the same power and wisdom as God (3:1032, Wisdom, J. Goetzmann).
    b. TDNT: In 5:12f. the angelic choirs extol the omnipotence of the Lamb in a seven-membered doxology (8:178, honor, J. Schneider).
    c. Thayer: supreme intelligence, such as belongs to God: Rev. 7:12, also to Christ, exalted to God's right hand, Rev. 5:12 (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, sophia, page 582).
    d. Mounce: In a remarkable attestation to the deity of Jesus Christ, the apostle John records two doxologies in which what is ascribed to God (the Father) is also ascribed to the Lamb, who is Jesus the Son (Rev. 5:12, "Worthy is the Lamb to receive...strength"; 7:12, "Praise and ...strength be to our God forever") (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Strength, page 688).

    J. The fact that the Lord Jesus is omnipotent and omniscient prove that He is God.
    Last edited by foudroyant; 07-31-2014 at 06:33 AM.

  4. #4
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Sydney, NSW, Australia
    Faith
    RCC
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    533
    Amen (Given)
    9
    Amen (Received)
    21
    Quote Originally Posted by foudroyant View Post
    I. The fact that the Lord Jesus is omnipotent and omniscient prove that He is God.
    Slight problem in your eisegesis: scripture explicitly demonstrates that the Son is not omniscient (ie: all knowing). Mt 24:36 "“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only".

  5. #5
    tWebber JohnnyP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Monterey Bay
    Faith
    unorthodox Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    794
    Amen (Given)
    24
    Amen (Received)
    39
    Quote Originally Posted by apostoli View Post
    Slight problem in your eisegesis: scripture explicitly demonstrates that the Son is not omniscient (ie: all knowing). Mt 24:36 "“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only".
    While it's my position the Son as God always had nature and access to all "God Omnis" of the Father (thought it not robbery to be equal to God), he chose not to exercise them until after his death, up to then only receiving what the Father gave him. Not only with your cite, but also not knowing if the Father would allow the cup to pass concerning his prayer in Gethsemane.

    But later implies Jesus exercises all "God Omis" being equal to the Father in His Throne:

    Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

    Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

  6. #6
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Posts
    1,334
    Amen (Given)
    0
    Amen (Received)
    3
    Stephen J. Wellum: In regard to omniscience, biblical authors, including Jesus himself, also affirm that the Son grew in knowledge and that he did not know certain things (Luke 2:52; Mark 13:32). How one reconciles the tension between an affirmation of the omniscience and ignorance of the Son is one of the most difficult areas in christological reflection. It is no doubt tied to the nature of the incarnation - the relation of the Son to the Father in the state of humiliation as the Son obediently does and knows all that the Father allows him for the purpose of our redemption (John 5:18-47), as well as the Son's relation to the Spirit. For our purposes, it is crucial to note that one cannot do justice to the Scripture's presentation of Christ without acknowledging that it teaches simultaneously the growth of Jesus in wisdom and knowledge in his human nature and the omniscience of Jesus as God the Son (The Deity of Christ, Ed. Christopher W. Morgan, Robert A. Peterson, page 141).

    You cited Matthew 24:36 and wrote "is not" (present tense). The Bible is crystal clear that RIGHT NOW Christ is omniscient. No one will ever fully (or even come to close) to understanding the goings on concerning the Incarnation. This is why it is best to stick with the passages concerning Christ's knowledge after His Ascension.

    Danker: of Jesus as a boy Lk 2:40, 52. Of him as an adult Mt 13:54; Mk 6:2. Of the exalted Christ Col 2:3. - Rv 5:12 (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, sophia, page 935).

  7. #7
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Sydney, NSW, Australia
    Faith
    RCC
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    533
    Amen (Given)
    9
    Amen (Received)
    21
    The idea of the doctrine of Kenosis is a very recent development in Christian theology. Whilst it might be used to solve many a problem in thought, it is in direct conflict with the ancient contemplations and declarations of Chalcedon (ie: one hypostasis, two pyhses) which apply to the Son before and after the ascension (ie: Jesus remains both God and Man! And so retains whatever constraints such an amalgamation entails).

    That aside: Romans 15:28 demonstrates that even after the resurrection the Son has conditional omnipotence (and presumably omniscience) = "And when all things shall be subdued unto him [the Son], then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him [the Father] that put all things under him, that God [the Father] may be all in all.".

  8. #8
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Posts
    1,334
    Amen (Given)
    0
    Amen (Received)
    3
    I think you meant 1 Corinthians 15:28 not Romans 15:28.
    Functional subjection does not necessitate a limit of Christ's power.

    a. NIDNTT: Although completely co-ordinated with God, he remains subordinate to him (cf. 1 Cor. 15:28) (2:80, God, J. Schneider).
    1. co-ordinate: (1) of the same order or degree; equal in rank or importance (Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, coordinate, page 321).
    b. TDNT: On the use of "the Son": In this way the community avoids a unitarian concept of God on the one side and a doctrine of two Gods on the other. The theological concern of the later doctrine of the Trinity is thus protected. What can be pictured in this aeon only as a duality of God will be seen to be His unity in the consummation. Hence the Son does not possess a dignity alongside the Father and in competition with Him. He has his place within the one glory of God (8:371-372, huios, Schweizer).

    Furthermore, if the Father gave the Lord Jesus the ability to be omniscient then by definition the Father would have created another God.
    a. NIDNTT: Only God has infinite powers of knowledge and revelation (1:222, Blood, F. Laubach).
    b. Omniscient: (3) the Omniscient God (Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, page 1005, NY: Gramercy Books, c. 1996).

    In fact, if the Almighty gave the Lord Jesus the ability to be all-power (omnipotent) then by definition the Almighty would have created another Almighty.
    a. Almighty: (1) having unlimited power; omnipotent, as God or a deity (Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, page 41, NY: Gramercy Books, c. 1996).
    a. Omnipotent: (1) almighty, or infinite in power, as God or a deity (4) the Omnipotent, God (Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, page 1005, NY: Gramercy Books, c. 1996).
    c. Omnipotence: The quality of having all power (The Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible 4:595, omnipotence, A. H. Leitch).

    Revelation 19:6 For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns. (NASB)
    Revelation 19:6 for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. (KJV)
    Almighty = omnipotence
    Last edited by foudroyant; 02-01-2014 at 03:21 PM.

  9. #9
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Sydney, NSW, Australia
    Faith
    RCC
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    533
    Amen (Given)
    9
    Amen (Received)
    21
    Quote Originally Posted by foudroyant View Post
    I think you meant 1 Corinthians 15:28 not Romans 15:28.
    Functional subjection does not necessitate a limit of Christ's power.

    a. NIDNTT: Although completely co-ordinated with God, he remains subordinate to him (cf. 1 Cor. 15:28) (2:80, God, J. Schneider).
    1. co-ordinate: (1) of the same order or degree; equal in rank or importance (Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, coordinate, page 321).
    b. TDNT: On the use of "the Son": In this way the community avoids a unitarian concept of God on the one side and a doctrine of two Gods on the other. The theological concern of the later doctrine of the Trinity is thus protected. What can be pictured in this aeon only as a duality of God will be seen to be His unity in the consummation. Hence the Son does not possess a dignity alongside the Father and in competition with Him. He has his place within the one glory of God (8:371-372, huios, Schweizer).

    Furthermore, if the Father gave the Lord Jesus the ability to be omniscient then by definition the Father would have created another God.
    a. NIDNTT: Only God has infinite powers of knowledge and revelation (1:222, Blood, F. Laubach).
    b. Omniscient: (3) the Omniscient God (Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, page 1005, NY: Gramercy Books, c. 1996).

    In fact, if the Almighty gave the Lord Jesus the ability to be all-power (omnipotent) then by definition the Almighty would have created another Almighty.
    a. Almighty: (1) having unlimited power; omnipotent, as God or a deity (Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, page 41, NY: Gramercy Books, c. 1996).
    a. Omnipotent: (1) almighty, or infinite in power, as God or a deity (4) the Omnipotent, God (Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, page 1005, NY: Gramercy Books, c. 1996).
    c. Omnipotence: The quality of having all power (The Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible 4:595, omnipotence, A. H. Leitch).

    Revelation 19:6 For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns. (NASB)
    Revelation 19:6 for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. (KJV)
    Almighty = omnipotence
    Oops! I did mean 1 Cor 15:28 which I at least quoted correctly.

    The omnies are generally considered in orthodox theology to be a philosophical constraint placed on God by man and are not essential to his nature. All that can be said of God/the Godhead (and the Jews agree) is that it "is" - ie: an absolute.

    Here is an article that discusses both sides of the issue, it might help bring you up to speed on Orthodox (Rcc, ROC, EOC etc) Trinitarian theology...
    A Biblical and Theological Answer to the False Doctrine of Kenosis
    https://bible.org/article/empty-god

  10. #10
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Posts
    1,334
    Amen (Given)
    0
    Amen (Received)
    3
    I appreciate the link that you sent. Thank you.

    Part of it reads:
    If we were to make an illustration of Jesus as if He were a policeman going under cover in a bad neighborhood, the Kenosis doctrine has the policeman leaving his weapons at home, along with his badge and other symbols of authority. He can call on headquarters for help, but he himself is helpless and defenseless. The orthodox teaching has the policeman himself as a "lethal weapon", he is a martial arts expert who can kill with a blow--he is skilled on the level that he can reach within a man's chest and pull out his still-beating heart--he can defeat multiple opponents. He can leave His I.D. , badge, uniform, etc., behind just like cop number one, but he cannot cease to be the walking weapon that he is. He looks normal, he appears as helpless as the first policeman, but he has the ability within himself to defend himself. He might choose to call for help; he might even choose to allow himself to be shackled, hurt or killed for the good of the mission--but he has the ability within himself to defeat his enemies. Raise that illustration, and the powers of the second policeman to infinity, and the illustration shows the difference in the two doctrines.
    ---------
    I agree. Christ simply chose to not always exercise all His power. Refusal to always use does not necessitate innate inability to use. Perhaps this may be semantics but isn't that the same thing as laying aside His power? He simply chose not to employ the power that was His.

    Also in the article it read:
    (1) Omniscience--John 11:11-14 ("...when Jesus was fifty miles away...")14 John 2:24-25, 6:64, 70-71. As for the instances when He seems to be claiming ignorance, they have to do with Him speaking from His humanity, and taking our place, and involve a complete understanding of the orthodox teaching concerning the relationship between the Divine and Human in Christ, which will be discussed in section IV.

    Where is Section 4?


    I've read parts of Paul Anderson's book "The Christology of the Fourth Gospel: Its Unity and Disunity" which I have found to be quite insightful.
    Last edited by foudroyant; 02-03-2014 at 08:35 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •