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Thread: The Omnipotence and Omniscience of Jesus

  1. #11
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by foudroyant View Post
    I appreciate the link that you sent. Thank you. I agree. Christ simply chose to not always exercise all His power.
    You are most welcome. To me: the important points in the article are:

    1. The kenosis of the Son refers to his divestment of the glory he had with his Father before the incarnation, which after the resurrection was re-established (cp. Jn 17:5; Phil 2:9-11) not the divestment of his ousia/physis as the Son of God (cp. Heb 1:3 where we read that the Son is an exact replica of his Father's hypostasis (the word used in the original Greek, this he cannot revoke (cp: Jn 12:45; 14:9)).

    2. This kenosis we can emulate (cp. Phil 2:5) eg: if one were born a king, then he remains a king even if he has the appearance of a peasant (Aristotle once postulated that a king who becomes a slave was never a king by nature, but a slave who becomes a king, was always a king by nature. Have a think on that one ;-) So if we are of the elite, we can be a servant to everyone else but remain by nature amongst the elite...
    Last edited by apostoli; 02-04-2014 at 04:07 PM.

  2. #12
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by foudroyant
    Christ simply chose to not always exercise all His power.
    Whilst that may be true, from scripture it is self evident his prescience was restricted...again I'll cite Mt 24:36 "“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only".

    From a Trinitarian perspective there is no problem in such an observation. As I said before: the omnies are simply philosophical speculations that constrain God/the Godhead, they have no impact on its ousia/physis (essence/nature).

    There are numerous texts in the OT that demonstrate that the God of Israel was not omniscient or at the minimum was forgetful...

  3. #13
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    See Post #6

    Please supply the clearest text from the Old Testament in which you think the God of Israel was not omniscient.

  4. #14
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by foudroyant View Post
    See Post #6

    Please supply the clearest text from the Old Testament in which you think the God of Israel was not omniscient.
    Lets start with Genesis 3:9, where we learn YHWH elohim didn't know where Adam and Eve were hiding...

    One thing you need to learn is the difference between omniscience (a retrospective) and prescience. Jesus did demonstrate a limited degree of prescience (eg: the fall of Jerusalem) but nothing more than any intelligent person might predispose over a wide time frame given the history of the region.

    Given we have been waiting close to two thousand years for the coming of the kingdom, I am of the opinion that it will arrive when we are ready for it! ie: when we divest ourselves of the concept of "God/s" and instead embrace the concept of the universal family and, via Biblical metaphor, accept our adoption by the Father via the mechanism of us being the bride of his only true Son...

    ps: Note the prayer that Jesus taught his disciples did not begin with "Dear God" but "Our Father..."
    Last edited by apostoli; 02-08-2014 at 02:37 PM.

  5. #15
    tWebber JohnnyP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apostoli View Post
    Lets start with Genesis 3:9, where we learn YHWH elohim didn't know where Adam and Eve were hiding...
    I don't think it implies God didn't know, rather that they thought they were hiding and God was calling them out. Kind of like when your kids get in trouble and try to hide, you may know where they are but you still say, "Ok where are you?" forcing them to come out and face the music. In a sense playing along with them, not that you really don't know.

    http://gallery.photo.net/photo/9567942-md.jpg
    Last edited by JohnnyP; 02-08-2014 at 11:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by apostoli View Post
    ps: Note the prayer that Jesus taught his disciples did not begin with "Dear God" but "Our Father..."
    But they also addressed the Father as δέσποτα in Acts 4:24 and "Lord" in Acts 4:29.
    And both of these are also applied to the Lord Jesus.

  7. #17
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyP View Post
    I don't think it implies God didn't know, rather that they thought they were hiding and God was calling them out. Kind of like when your kids get in trouble and try to hide, you may know where they are but you still say, "Ok where are you?" forcing them to come out and face the music. In a sense playing along with them, not that you really don't know.

    http://gallery.photo.net/photo/9567942-md.jpg
    A valid comment, but consider how it was that "God" did not know that mankind and certain angels would become degenerative, causing "God", as if in surprise, to irrationally lose his temper and wipe out all living things upon the earth (apart from those he set apart on the Ark).

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by foudroyant View Post
    But they also addressed the Father as δέσποτα in Acts 4:24 and "Lord" in Acts 4:29.
    And both of these are also applied to the Lord Jesus.
    But if you are a Trinitarian, then you accept Jesus is not the Father...and all attributes, attributed to Jesus are at the grace of the Father...including his resurrection (Acts 2:32, 4:10, 10:40, 13:30,37; Rom 10:9 " if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved").
    Last edited by apostoli; 02-09-2014 at 02:37 AM.

  9. #19
    tWebber JohnnyP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apostoli View Post
    A valid comment, but consider how it was that "God" did not know that mankind and certain angels would become degenerative, causing "God", as if in surprise, to irrationally lose his temper and wipe out all living things upon the earth (apart from those he set apart on the Ark).
    The text doesn't say God did not know, but that God decided to intervene upon free will, after God already allowed free will.

    You may see "repented/sorry/regretted" as being caught by surprise. But suppose you stole something and knew it was wrong to start with, then "repented/sorry/regretted" doing it? You aren't surprised by it, you already knew it from the start. So that's not the correct way to treat the text, in my view.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyP View Post
    The text doesn't say God did not know, but that God decided to intervene upon free will, after God already allowed free will.

    You may see "repented/sorry/regretted" as being caught by surprise. But suppose you stole something and knew it was wrong to start with, then "repented/sorry/regretted" doing it? You aren't surprised by it, you already knew it from the start. So that's not the correct way to treat the text, in my view.
    In my view, it is necessary to read what is written and not read into the text our own imaginings. For instance: for whatever reason God chose the scum of the earth to be his biblical heroes eg: Abraham who for the sake of self preservation attempted to prostitute his wife (who was in fact his sister). David who broke most of the ten commandments - a statutory rapist, adulterer, murderer etc who usurped the high priesthood and had himself worshiped as God (1 Chronicles 29:20). In the case of Abraham we read of God's intervention after the event. In the case of David - well ultimately his linage was condemned and his temporal throne ceased to exist.

    Given the facts as depicted in scripture, one is inclined to understand that whilst God is omniscient in retrospect (knows whatever has already occurred), he is either not prescient or chooses not to be prescient. Without prescience, one cannot be fully omniscient...
    Last edited by apostoli; 02-09-2014 at 09:57 AM.

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