Abrogation:Christianity and Islam

[revivalfire]

I've read alot about abrogation of the Quran on this site...and I was wondering, does Christ fulfilling the Law a form of abrogation seeing as how the Law isn't required on certain terms because Christ was the sacrifice?? Just wondering..and no..it's not my personal opinion...

[technomage]

Heck, that's a good question.

The problem is, you can't get five Islamic scholars together and get them to agree on if there is any abrogation in the Quran, how much is abrogated (if any), what's abrogated, what's doing the abrogation, or any of it. And that's just counting Islamic scholars who practice Islam ... when you start talking people that are not part of that religion, but have studied it, then the opinions really get weird. There's a similar situation in Christianity, where the spectrum of belief ranges from assertions that none of the NT is applicable for Christians, to those who want to set up a Christian antion according to Mosaic law. And then you throw in the opinions of the anti-Islam or anti-Christian apologists....

You're likely to get a lot more sound than substance referring to the Quran. Frankly, I don't think there are any Muslim scholars who subscribe to TWeb, and you've also got folks like Crusader and Jude, who are ... well, I think "hostile to Islam" would be the most accurate way to phrase it, even though it's not too flattering. As for the Bible ... what's your opinion? Does Christ having fulfilled the Law abrogate the Law's applicability to Christians? Are you, as a Gentile Christian, not subject to the Law of Moses?

[Krusader]

I've read alot about abrogation of the Quran on this site...and I was wondering, does Christ fulfilling the Law a form of abrogation seeing as how the Law isn't required on certain terms because Christ was the sacrifice?? Just wondering..and no..it's not my personal opinion...

Revivaltime, since Justin is a witch, he seems to have a real problem with me and Jude. However, let me answer your question. Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the Law for all Who place their faith in His shed Blood. The Law still remains in effect, and all who are outside of Christ, will be judged by the requirements of the Law.

Thus, the Law is not abrogated (changed), but fulfilled for believers by the Lord Jesus Christ.

[technomage]

Revivaltime, since Justin is a witch, he seems to have a real problem with me and Jude.

Hi, Crusader,

I need to make a distinction here. I have absolutely no problem with you and Jude as people. I have no problem with what you are doing--in attempting to spread the Gospel, you are following the dictates of God to the best of your understanding. My only problem is that I feel that some of the tactics that you use are not up to the ethical standards of your faith ... well, that and I feel that the confrontative, "I'm right, you're wrong" methodology is going to be much less effective than you wish.

[Krusader]

Hi, Crusader,

I need to make a distinction here. I have absolutely no problem with you and Jude as people. I have no problem with what you are doing--in attempting to spread the Gospel, you are following the dictates of God to the best of your understanding. My only problem is that I feel that some of the tactics that you use are not up to the ethical standards of your faith ... well, that and I feel that the confrontative, "I'm right, you're wrong" methodology is going to be much less effective than you wish.

Okay, Justin, you've already lambasted me and Jude, and we don't agree with you (or at least I don't). I've attempted to stick to the facts regarding Islam, as I understand them, and have pointed to the fact that we find the origin or the current terrorist acts in the Quran itself and in the paradigm created by Mohammed. Never have I said that all Muslims are warped, maniac terrorists, have I? I've always attempted to keep things on a doctrinal level, have I not? You're the one that called us "liars," and a bunch of other "nice" names, and said that abrogation was a heresy - although I have proven that this is a commonly held doctrine among Muslims. So, whether you regard me or Jude as good people is of no concern to me, frankly............what is a concern to me is whether or not you really went to Church on Christmas, and if so, how did you come away feeling?

[technomage]

Okay, Justin, you've already lambasted me and Jude, and we don't agree with you (or at least I don't).

Oh, I'm quite aware that I have done so, and that you do not agree--and I think it would be a reasonable conjecture that Jude also disagrees. And yes, I still feel that you are being ... well, there's no sense in soft-petaling, is there. I still feel that you and Jude are attacking Islam using dishonest debate tactics, and I still feel that you are doing so on this forum not to persuade Muslims to convert, but to "preach to the choir," perhaps even for your own aggrandizement. Evidently, I am not the only person to feel that way: Jew, Christian, and Pagan alike responded to the thread I started, and you can see their responses as well as I can.

Crusader, if I thought that you were irredeemable, I would not bother. I pray for you daily, that you will see the consequences of your deeds, and that you will repent of your dishonesty. I pray for the day when you and Jude will begin to act in all areas of your life in accord with your professed faith. Would it surprise you to know that, even as a non-Christian, I feel the LDS church is heretical? Would it startle you to hear that, even as a Pagan, I feel the Jehovah's Witnesses have taken grossly irresponsible liberties in their doctrines? Would it amaze you to know that, even as a Wiccan, I feel that Islam represents a spiritual danger to those who practice it?

I have a brother who is Mormon--he converted in College. I also pray for him daily, that he may awake from his self-satisfied sleep to the truth. Yet I refuse to try to persuade him by dishonest means.

However, I fear that I've gone terribly off-topic. If you wish to discuss these issues further, I will more than gladly do so in another thread.

what is a concern to me is whether or not you really went to Church on Christmas, and if so, how did you come away feeling?

I did not: my parents decided not to go. However, I have been in church several times since I started practicing Wicca. How do I come away feeling? Well, it varies from time to time: one of the times I was at a church where the message was all "feel-good warm fuzzies," and I came away feeling like I'd wasted my time. One of the times was at a Catholic Church (Christmas of last year), and while the experience was esthetically pleasing, it wasn't terribly edifying. Most of the times I have been to church since my conversion have been at a Bible church that my daughter occasionaly attends: I frequently come away feeling that I have learned something that I can take with me in the future, and use in my life.

However, again, this discussion is off-topic for the thread. If you wish to explore these issues further, I'll be more than glad to.

[Krusader]

Oh, I'm quite aware that I have done so, and that you do not agree--and I think it would be a reasonable conjecture that Jude also disagrees. And yes, I still feel that you are being ... well, there's no sense in soft-petaling, is there. I still feel that you and Jude are attacking Islam using dishonest debate tactics, and I still feel that you are doing so on this forum not to persuade Muslims to convert, but to "preach to the choir," perhaps even for your own aggrandizement. Evidently, I am not the only person to feel that way: Jew, Christian, and Pagan alike responded to the thread I started, and you can see their responses as well as I can.

Crusader, if I thought that you were irredeemable, I would not bother. I pray for you daily, that you will see the consequences of your deeds, and that you will repent of your dishonesty. I pray for the day when you and Jude will begin to act in all areas of your life in accord with your professed faith. Would it surprise you to know that, even as a non-Christian, I feel the LDS church is heretical? Would it startle you to hear that, even as a Pagan, I feel the Jehovah's Witnesses have taken grossly irresponsible liberties in their doctrines? Would it amaze you to know that, even as a Wiccan, I feel that Islam represents a spiritual danger to those who practice it?

I have a brother who is Mormon--he converted in College. I also pray for him daily, that he may awake from his self-satisfied sleep to the truth. Yet I refuse to try to persuade him by dishonest means.

However, I fear that I've gone terribly off-topic. If you wish to discuss these issues further, I will more than gladly do so in another thread.


I did not: my parents decided not to go. However, I have been in church several times since I started practicing Wicca. How do I come away feeling? Well, it varies from time to time: one of the times I was at a church where the message was all "feel-good warm fuzzies," and I came away feeling like I'd wasted my time. One of the times was at a Catholic Church (Christmas of last year), and while the experience was esthetically pleasing, it wasn't terribly edifying. Most of the times I have been to church since my conversion have been at a Bible church that my daughter occasionaly attends: I frequently come away feeling that I have learned something that I can take with me in the future, and use in my life.

However, again, this discussion is off-topic for the thread. If you wish to explore these issues further, I'll be more than glad to.

However, Justin, you just make accusations and give no specifics. Let me please know what I've said that has no empirical merit. For instance, "you said that Islam..........(fill in the blank)...........and this is a lie."

I'm glad that you see Mormonism and JWs as being non-Christian and heretical, and Islam as a real danger. Also, I don't know to whom you pray, could you be more explicit?

[Dolphan7]

Revivaltime, since Justin is a witch, he seems to have a real problem with me and Jude. However, let me answer your question. Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the Law for all Who place their faith in His shed Blood. The Law still remains in effect, and all who are outside of Christ, will be judged by the requirements of the Law.

Thus, the Law is not abrogated (changed), but fulfilled for believers by the Lord Jesus Christ.

I would add that Jesus not only fulfilled the OT Law, he expanded and clarified it. JER 31:31 “ Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
MT 5:18 “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Jesus then goes in to explain in detail the 10 commandments in Chapters 5-7.

The sacrificial laws were no longer necessary after Jesus died on the cross for us. But the moral laws still applied and he explains specifically how to obey these moral laws.

[Krusader]

I would add that Jesus not only fulfilled the OT Law, he expanded and clarified it. JER 31:31 “ Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
MT 5:18 “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Jesus then goes in to explain in detail the 10 commandments in Chapters 5-7.

The sacrificial laws were no longer necessary after Jesus died on the cross for us. But the moral laws still applied and he explains specifically how to obey these moral laws.

Jesus fulfilled all the law for Christians, both ceremonial and moral. Christians, today, are under the "perfect law of liberty," i.e., "love God and do what you want...............for if you love God, you WILL do what He wants."

[technomage]

Crusader ... separate thread, remember? We've already almost completely hijacked revivalfire's thread ... fortunately, Dolphan just ignored our discussion and went straight to the issues, expanding on your thoughts about abrogation.

I tell you what, let me either set up a thread over in the Tennis Court, or see if I can persuade the Mods to get a NeoPaganism forum going. We'll discuss things there.

[Krusader]

Crusader ... separate thread, remember? We've already almost completely hijacked revivalfire's thread ... fortunately, Dolphan just ignored our discussion and went straight to the issues, expanding on your thoughts about abrogation.

I tell you what, let me either set up a thread over in the Tennis Court, or see if I can persuade the Mods to get a NeoPaganism forum going. We'll discuss things there.

Sounds okay to me - but what is the Tennis Court???????????????????

[technomage]

The Tennis Court is a sub-forum for polite, one-on-one discussion ... it's kind of like the Wrestling Ring (which is for more formalized debates), but not so confrontational. One of the things that I don't particularly care for in the Tennis Court is that it's set up only for one-on-one discussions, but I'll take what I can get, unless the ModSquad sets up that NeoPaganism forum.

Here's a link to the Tennis Court.

[revivalfire]

Wow..thanx for the umput guys... Justin, I personally believe that Christ fulfilled the Law, like he said he did. but that he still taught the Ten Commmandments tells me that we still have moral and ethical duties to which we are obligated. I.e.-not lying, commiting adultery(that also includes Christ's statement on it), murder, etc. These things are not for the Christian..the true Christian anyway... I must admit, I get irritated and a little frightened to see people misrepresent my religion...you've no doubt seen these people...i.e. mormons...however my faith keeps me aware that God continues to be in control.
Also, be careful to which church you go, like I said, many Christians today aren't Christians..if you know what I mean...I hope that you find a good one that you can go to so that you can learn more about what I believe and that it helps you with your life....good luck!!

[Dolphan7]

Wow..thanx for the umput guys... Justin, I personally believe that Christ fulfilled the Law, like he said he did. but that he still taught the Ten Commmandments tells me that we still have moral and ethical duties to which we are obligated. I.e.-not lying, commiting adultery(that also includes Christ's statement on it), murder, etc. These things are not for the Christian..the true Christian anyway... I must admit, I get irritated and a little frightened to see people misrepresent my religion...you've no doubt seen these people...i.e. mormons...however my faith keeps me aware that God continues to be in control.
Also, be careful to which church you go, like I said, many Christians today aren't Christians..if you know what I mean...I hope that you find a good one that you can go to so that you can learn more about what I believe and that it helps you with your life....good luck!!

Didn't you mean to say These things ARE for the Christian?

[shunyadragon]

Okay, Justin, you've already lambasted me and Jude, and we don't agree with you (or at least I don't). I've attempted to stick to the facts regarding Islam, as I understand them, and have pointed to the fact that we find the origin or the current terrorist acts in the Quran itself and in the paradigm created by Mohammed. Never have I said that all Muslims are warped, maniac terrorists, have I? I've always attempted to keep things on a doctrinal level, have I not? You're the one that called us "liars," and a bunch of other "nice" names, and said that abrogation was a heresy - although I have proven that this is a commonly held doctrine among Muslims. So, whether you regard me or Jude as good people is of no concern to me, frankly............what is a concern to me is whether or not you really went to Church on Christmas, and if so, how did you come away feeling?

The current Jihad and terrorist situation is another issue, but I noticed you couldn't resist saying what you say you never would say, by not saying it. People in glass house should not throw stones.

It sounds like you have everything worked out, which appears to from a very biased Christian view. Abrogation concerning the Law in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam is very different today, but I believe it was originally very similar. Simply the Torah and the Law is forever, and individual laws may be abrogated or changed, but the Law is forever. I believe this is how Abraham, Moses, Christ and Mohammod taught.

Unfortunately in Christianity Paul stuck his foot in the door and put a kink in the plowline of Christian history. He advocated throwing almost the whole law out and setting up a Greco-Roman Theocracy, which the early church fathers followed by the emperors carried out with due diligence and force of arms.