Genesis 10 and 11

[Jayrok]

Did Genesis 11 come before Genesis 10?

It must have because Gen 11 says the whole world was with a common language.

Gen 10 says each son of Noah had kids who all went to separate places, each with his own nation and his own language.

Gen 11 says men moved eastward and settled in Shinar (babylonia). This is where they built the Tower of Babel. God then scattered them and confused their language because he knew that when men all spoke the same language and they got together to build a tower like that, then nothing would be impossible for such men to do..


Were the men who settled in Shinar really the whole world? or were they the people of Nimrod, the son of Cush? (Gen 10:10)

If the author of Genesis 11 thought that the whole world consisted of Nimrod's people, what about all the other clans of Noah?

If the people of Nimrod settled in Shinar after the tower of Babel... where did they come from? Gen 11 says God scattered men from Shinar.. did these people circle around and come back to Shinar? Nimrod's grandfather was Cush, son of Noah.. so we can't be talking about distant future generations in Shinar..

[learning]

This is the anniversary of the Grimms brothers' fairy tales books, and they say that they were able to put together many fairy tales, that were in different languages, but many that had a common theme throughout all the languages. They say the Grimm's brothers were studying the origins of language, and it was from that that they got the common fairy tale stories.

As for the order of Genesis, not too sure, but I have a book that talks about the ancestors of these people and how many tribes and countries in the Middle East claim that they are descended from them. In fact, I think that the Checknians (spelling?) claim they are descendants of Shem, and not related to Russian, whom they claim to be descendants of Gog and Magog, so that is why they are fighting for independance. Their name actually is supposed to mean (I've heard) in their language, 'sons of Noah' but then, everyone would be, especially in that region.

(btw, though I understand their wanting independance, especially after the way they were treated during the union of the Soviet Union, (many, they say, were sent to Siberian work camps) I am definitely against any terrorists acts they have committed.)

[Jayrok]

This is the anniversary of the Grimms brothers' fairy tales books, and they say that they were able to put together many fairy tales, that were in different languages, but many that had a common theme throughout all the languages. They say the Grimm's brothers were studying the origins of language, and it was from that that they got the common fairy tale stories.

As for the order of Genesis, not too sure, but I have a book that talks about the ancestors of these people and how many tribes and countries in the Middle East claim that they are descended from them. In fact, I think that the Checknians (spelling?) claim they are descendants of Shem, and not related to Russian, whom they claim to be descendants of Gog and Magog, so that is why they are fighting for independance. Their name actually is supposed to mean (I've heard) in their language, 'sons of Noah' but then, everyone would be, especially in that region.

(btw, though I understand their wanting independance, especially after the way they were treated during the union of the Soviet Union, (many, they say, were sent to Siberian work camps) I am definitely against any terrorists acts they have committed.)

I didn't know that about the Chechnyians.. but I heard they were more Muslim (Arab) than Russian.. at any rate, I'm not sure what this has to do with Gen 10 and 11..?

[Captain Ochre]

Did Genesis 11 come before Genesis 10?

The accounts overlap chronologically, AFAICS.

It must have because Gen 11 says the whole world was with a common language.

We're obviously not talking about Gen 11 being written before Gen 10 since the contents would be MOL irrelevant to the point. Right?

Gen 10 says each son of Noah had kids who all went to separate places, each with his own nation and his own language.

More precisely, it states that the various descendants of Noah eventually spread out to form nations with distinct languages (10:4,10,32).

Gen 11 says men moved eastward and settled in Shinar (babylonia). This is where they built the Tower of Babel. God then scattered them and confused their language because he knew that when men all spoke the same language and they got together to build a tower like that, then nothing would be impossible for such men to do..

I'm going to use that smiley next time you use hyperbole.

Were the men who settled in Shinar really the whole world? or were they the people of Nimrod, the son of Cush? (Gen 10:10)

I must have missed the part where the men who settled in Shinar are referred to as 'the whole world" by the author of the account. Perhaps you should quote the passage specifically?

If the author of Genesis 11 thought that the whole world consisted of Nimrod's people, what about all the other clans of Noah?

Let's deal with the premise of the question before bothering to answer it. Mmm-kay?

Why would you think that the author of Gen 11 thought that the whole world consisted of Nimrod's people?

If the people of Nimrod settled in Shinar after the tower of Babel... where did they come from? Gen 11 says God scattered men from Shinar.. did these people circle around and come back to Shinar? Nimrod's grandfather was Cush, son of Noah.. so we can't be talking about distant future generations in Shinar..

I could be wrong, but you seem to be ignoring the apparent chronological overlap in favor of a false dichotomy where either one account or the other necessarily precedes the other in its entirety.
Why would you do that?

[Jayrok]

The accounts overlap chronologically, AFAICS.

We're obviously not talking about Gen 11 being written before Gen 10 since the contents would be MOL irrelevant to the point. Right?

Right.. it doesn't matter to me which was written first. But Chronologically chapter 11 must come before chapter 10.

I'm going to use that smiley next time you use hyperbole.

Gotcha.. it was my reaction to how silly I think that whole passage really is, and how primitive the author really must have been to think God would be like that.

I must have missed the part where the men who settled in Shinar are referred to as 'the whole world" by the author of the account. Perhaps you should quote the passage specifically?

Gen 11:1 -- Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As men moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.

If these men didn't consist of the "whole world", then God only confused the languages of the men who settled in Shinar because they are the ones who built the tower of Babel. If there were more people in the world somewhere else (who didn't settle in Shinar), then they all kept speaking the same tongue and God didn't scatter them. So, I assumed that these men who settled in Shinar consisted of the whole world.

Why would you think that the author of Gen 11 thought that the whole world consisted of Nimrod's people?

It was just an option because according to Genesis 10, Nimrod set up his kingdom in Shinar per Genesis 10:8-10.. none of the other clans set up shop there where the tower was built in the next chapter.

I could be wrong, but you seem to be ignoring the apparent chronological overlap in favor of a false dichotomy where either one account or the other necessarily precedes the other in its entirety.
Why would you do that?

I'm just trying to figure out if chapter 11 comes before chapter 10. Chapter 10 says the clans of Noah went out in their own nations and in their own languages. Chapter 11 says all the world spoke the same language. It also speaks of men settling in Shinar (babylonia).. we know from chapter 10 that the clan that settled there was from Cush's son, Nimrod.

But, in chapter 11, when these men settled in Shinar, verse 1 tells us that the whole world spoke the same language.. Just trying to clarify..

[Captain Ochre]

Right.. it doesn't matter to me which was written first. But Chronologically chapter 11 must come before chapter 10.

Only in part. Noah's sons had sons before the tower of Babel was built, afaics. I don't see any point in you denying it. Agree with me that the accounts overlap, won't you?

Gotcha.. it was my reaction to how silly I think that whole passage really is, and how primitive the author really must have been to think God would be like that.

Okay, then I'll use the smiley when I think that you've written a silly passage, when you've adopted an unsophisticated (read: primitive) interpretation of the Scripture, or when you utilize hyperbole.

Gen 11:1 -- Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As men moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.

If these men didn't consist of the "whole world", then God only confused the languages of the men who settled in Shinar because they are the ones who built the tower of Babel.

That doesn't follow. The men could be a small part of worldwide humanity and God could yet confound the language of all (including those in Shinar) in response to the actions of the tower-building folk.

If there were more people in the world somewhere else (who didn't settle in Shinar), then they all kept speaking the same tongue and God didn't scatter them.

That doesn't follow, either. People living elsewhere wouldn't need to be scattered because obviously they're not part of the tower-building enterprise, and they're already scattered, in effect. Would you propose that the fact that they're already been scattered would make them immune from having their languages altered?

So, I assumed that these men who settled in Shinar consisted of the whole world.

IMO, your assumption was founded on very obviously faulty logic.

It was just an option because according to Genesis 10, Nimrod set up his kingdom in Shinar per Genesis 10:8-10.. none of the other clans set up shop there where the tower was built in the next chapter.

You seem to have stopped short of telling us why that option should be considered seriously, unless you're resting on the faulty logic you've already shared.

I'm just trying to figure out if chapter 11 comes before chapter 10.

Don't you think that they very probably overlap?
Shouldn't that realization set your question to rest?

Chapter 10 says the clans of Noah went out in their own nations and in their own languages. Chapter 11 says all the world spoke the same language. It also speaks of men settling in Shinar (babylonia).. we know from chapter 10 that the clan that settled there was from Cush's son, Nimrod.

The language of chapter 10 (at least in my NIV) seem to indicate forward-looking language.
I don't think that you can be trusted to transmit the accounts accurately. Please cite the specific passage when you translate the gist of the account for our supposed benefit (wouldn't hurt to indicate what translation you're using, also).

But, in chapter 11, when these men settled in Shinar, verse 1 tells us that the whole world spoke the same language.. Just trying to clarify..

Why are you trying to clarify what's already clear?

[John Powell]

POWELL:
I think ancient people had different languages because it's normal for groups of humans to vary their language over time rather than because God confused the original language when a group built a tower to reach the heavens.

The tower / confused language story sounds like a myth to me.

John Powell

[Captain Ochre]

POWELL:
I think ancient people had different languages because it's normal for groups of humans to vary their language over time rather than because God confused the original language when a group built a tower to reach the heavens.

The tower / confused language story sounds like a myth to me.

Either way, the issue of chronology of chapter 10 vs. chapter 11 seems insignificant.

[learning]

JayrokI didn't know that about the Chechnyians.. but I heard they were more Muslim (Arab) than Russian.. at any rate, I'm not sure what this has to do with Gen 10 and 11...?

learning: Genesis 10:1 & 2
"This is the history of the families of Shem, Ham and Japheth, the three sons of Noah. Many children were born to them after the Flood.
The descendants of Japheth were Gomer, Magog, Madia, Javan, Tubal, Meshech, and Tiras."

OK, the Chechnyians say Russia comes from Magog, Japheth's family.

Genesis 10:21
"Sons were born to Shem, the older brother of Japheth. Shem was the ancestor of all the descendants of Eber. The descendants of Shem were Elam, Asshur, Arphaxad, Lud and Aram."

I'm not sure actually from whom the Chechnyians say they are from, but definitely from Shem, and possibly Aram. You were talking about Genesis 10 & 11, so I thought this fit. I'll get back with more detail later if I can find it again.

[Jayrok]

Only in part. Noah's sons had sons before the tower of Babel was built, afaics. I don't see any point in you denying it. Agree with me that the accounts overlap, won't you?

it's very important to you that I agree with you isn't it..

If Noah's sons had sons before the tower was built then there is a contradiction in Chapters 10 and 11. Chapter 11 begins with the fact that the whole world had one common language and a common speech. Then some of these men (or all of them, no one knows for sure) moved into the valley called Shinar.. there they built the tower. If Noah already had sons elsewhere in the world, like you are asserting, then it must be true that they all spoke the same language. You agree with that, yes? Because verse one in chapter 11 says so.

But in Chapter 10, we read that some of Noah's children's children went off into the world each with their own tribes and their own language.

That is why I was wondering if the whole world was present at the tower of babel.

That doesn't follow. The men could be a small part of worldwide humanity and God could yet confound the language of all (including those in Shinar) in response to the actions of the tower-building folk.

yes.. but chapter 10 tells us that some of Noah's grandkids went and settle into lands with each its own language. How can that be if it is prior to the tower of Babel? God said the whole world had a common language prior to the tower. Even if you say the tower-building folk are but a fraction of the entire world's population, then it must follow that the rest of the world's population all spoke the same language, else the author of chapter 11 is a liar.

Perhaps God scrambled the whole world's speech at that time, on account of the tower builders. But that still doesn't answer how some tribes from Noah each had their own language from Chapter 10... unless it was after the tower.

That doesn't follow, either. People living elsewhere wouldn't need to be scattered because obviously they're not part of the tower-building enterprise, and they're already scattered, in effect. Would you propose that the fact that they're already been scattered would make them immune from having their languages altered?

ok.. those other tribes didn't need to be scattered and they did have their language altered..

But you said Noah had sons prior to the tower.. and it is true that many of those sons each had his own tribe and his own language (chapter 10). So why would God need to alter their langauge if the rest of the world spoke different languages anyway?

IMO, your assumption was founded on very obviously faulty logic.

says the man from a biased pov.

Don't you think that they very probably overlap?

maybe they don't.

I don't think that you can be trusted to transmit the accounts accurately.

gee, what a nice thing to say.. I'm not allowed to ask questions about stories in the book you claim is the word of God?

ok, fine.. why don't you tell me how the stories in chapter 10 and 11 flow corrrectly.. since I am incapable of transmitting them accurately..

Please cite the specific passage when you translate the gist of the account for our supposed benefit (wouldn't hurt to indicate what translation you're using, also).

NIV

Why are you trying to clarify what's already clear?

it is clear as mud.

[Captain Ochre]

it's very important to you that I agree with you isn't it..

Not really.


I don't make myself responsible for whether or not others have rational beliefs. They can too easily frustrate me with illogic if I make changing minds my motivation for truth-telling.

If Noah's sons had sons before the tower was built then there is a contradiction in Chapters 10 and 11. Chapter 11 begins with the fact that the whole world had one common language and a common speech. Then some of these men (or all of them, no one knows for sure) moved into the valley called Shinar.. there they built the tower. If Noah already had sons elsewhere in the world, like you are asserting, then it must be true that they all spoke the same language. You agree with that, yes? Because verse one in chapter 11 says so.

The contradiction that you allege is resolved using the view that the accounts overlap chronologically.
1) Suppose that Noah had sons (chapter 10) before the tower was built (chapter 11).
2) Suppose that the sons of Noah dispersed before the tower was built.
3) Suppose that the various kingdoms spoke the same language.
4) Suppose that the tower was begun.
5) Suppose that the languages were confounded.
6) Ouala! The kingdoms of Noah's sons both speak the same language (initially) and separate languages (subsequent to the Babel confusion spell), and there's no contradiction.

Only by supposing that Chapter 10 needed to be written as though it was unknown that languages would eventually be different would it make sense to suggest a contradiction. If Chapter 10 had been written subsequent to the events described (allegedly by Moses, who lived after the events described), then we should expect that the author would be able to use the lens of subsequent history as he related the accounts.

But in Chapter 10, we read that some of Noah's children's children went off into the world each with their own tribes and their own language.

As I said earlier, you can't be trusted to relate the gist of the text accurately.
I expect you to offer citation each time you provide a version of a biblical account, given your apparent difficulty in giving us an accurate reading.
In 10:4, we read of "maritime peoples" who spread out into nations possessing distinct languages. Are we to suppose that these sons of Javan departed the presence of Japheth by boat? That's an unreasonable stretch, IMHO. The maritime peoples are folks who were known to the audience to whom our author is addressing his work. The passage is forward-looking.
Verses 13-20 are likewise forward-looking passages, referring to nations known to the intended audience.

That is why I was wondering if the whole world was present at the tower of babel.

You are reasoning poorly.

yes.. but chapter 10 tells us that some of Noah's grandkids went and settle into lands with each its own language. How can that be if it is prior to the tower of Babel?

Chapter 10 tells us that some of Noah's grandkids went and settled into lands each with its own language at the time they settled there?
Chapter, verse, and translation, please.

God said the whole world had a common language prior to the tower. Even if you say the tower-building folk are but a fraction of the entire world's population, then it must follow that the rest of the world's population all spoke the same language, else the author of chapter 11 is a liar.

You're now introducing a different argument, just to be clear on the matter.
From a YEC view, it would probably be held that the whole planet Earth literally shared one language. The term used in Genesis probably has the sense of the specific region in question, however. By analogy, when I say "everybody knows X" I'm implicitly excepting babies (who are generally known for their MOL utter lack of scholarship). In effect, the known world was the whole world. The text is written with the audience in mind, remember.

In neither case is an internal contradiction evident. You'd have the option of trying to contradict the text with the claim that the Chinese spoke language X prior to the building of the tower, but that would have literally nothing to do with which chapter chronologically precedes the other.

Perhaps God scrambled the whole world's speech at that time, on account of the tower builders. But that still doesn't answer how some tribes from Noah each had their own language from Chapter 10... unless it was after the tower.

That question has been addressed (easily) by me, above. The texts overlap chronologically.

ok.. those other tribes didn't need to be scattered and they did have their language altered..

But you said Noah had sons prior to the tower.. and it is true that many of those sons each had his own tribe and his own language (chapter 10).

Chapter, verse, and translation, please.

So why would God need to alter their langauge if the rest of the world spoke different languages anyway?

To keep them from actively collaborating on tower-building, maybe?

says the man from a biased pov.

What the specific evidence of my bias, apart from your contrary bias?

maybe they don't.

Maybe's can't take you very far when it comes time to allege contextual inconsistency.
Maybe that story that's supposed to take place in the Forties is talking about a '97 Escort when it mentions a Ford automobile on page seventeen.
That would be a chronological contradiction.
Maybe.

gee, what a nice thing to say.. I'm not allowed to ask questions about stories in the book you claim is the word of God?

That's exactly the type of thing that I'm talking about when I suggest that you reason poorly.
You're allowed to ask all the questions you like. I do not trust you to accurately transmit the meaning of the biblical text, therefore I've asked you to offer specific references instead of your own paraphrasing. I do this on the basis of your past (apparent) failures.
You're correct that it's not a nice thing to say. Unfortunately for you, it's accurate nonetheless.
It's not meant as an insult, but as an observation. You seem to read the Bible in a hyper-literal fashion.

ok, fine.. why don't you tell me how the stories in chapter 10 and 11 flow corrrectly.. since I am incapable of transmitting them accurately..

I've already done that, AFAICS.
What don't you understand?

NIV

You appear to have neglected citation of the specific passages you're leaning on. Since you're using the same translation I'm using, it's all the more apparent that you haven't done a good job of transmitting the meaning of the text.

it is clear as mud.

... and the problem can't possibly be with you ...

[Jayrok]

The contradiction that you allege is resolved using the view that the accounts overlap chronologically.
1) Suppose that Noah had sons (chapter 10) before the tower was built (chapter 11).
2) Suppose that the sons of Noah dispersed before the tower was built.
3) Suppose that the various kingdoms spoke the same language.
4) Suppose that the tower was begun.
5) Suppose that the languages were confounded.
6) Ouala! The kingdoms of Noah's sons both speak the same language (initially) and separate languages (subsequent to the Babel confusion spell), and there's no contradiction.

#3 is wrong.. The various kingdoms did not speak the same language. They had their own language. And that hurts this whole chronology you've listed here.

3) Suppose the various kingdoms spoke different langauges.
4) Suppose that the tower was begun
5) Suppose the languages were confounded.

Why were they confounded when they were already different in step 3?

I expect you to offer citation each time you provide a version of a biblical account, given your apparent difficulty in giving us an accurate reading.

I'm not asserting something and challenging you to prove it wrong. I'm asking you to answer the question based on your understanding of the genesis story. I asked you to provide your "accurate" reading of the same text. And you wrote a small list of what you thought happened. Based on the story, your third entry is incorrect.

You are reasoning poorly.

thank you oh champion of reason.

Chapter 10 tells us that some of Noah's grandkids went and settled into lands each with its own language at the time they settled there?
Chapter, verse, and translation, please.

ok, so when did they settle there? that's why I've asked if they proceeded each other or overlapped.. did they settle there after the tower was built or before?

From a YEC view, it would probably be held that the whole planet Earth literally shared one language. The term used in Genesis probably has the sense of the specific region in question, however. By analogy, when I say "everybody knows X" I'm implicitly excepting babies (who are generally known for their MOL utter lack of scholarship). In effect, the known world was the whole world. The text is written with the audience in mind, remember.

so the author, when he wrote "the whole world", he was talking about just one region of the entire planet, and not the whole world as we know it? The "world" that his audience would understand? ok.. if this is the case, then the story makes more sense. Their "world" all spoke the same language, but there were other unknown tribes on the planet that had its own languages.

I do not trust you to accurately transmit the meaning of the biblical text, therefore I've asked you to offer specific references instead of your own paraphrasing.

ok.. then why don't you offer your "expert" analysis of what really happened in chapters 10 and 11, and maybe we can go from there..

I do this on the basis of your past (apparent) failures.
You're correct that it's not a nice thing to say. Unfortunately for you, it's accurate nonetheless.

It's not meant as an insult, but as an observation.

I'm not interested in your insults or observations.. Why don't you stick with question and help clarify your book of faith's text.. and drop the petty kid stuff.

I've already done that, AFAICS.

no, you haven't. You've said "suppose this, and suppose that".. Tell the story capt Ogre..

You appear to have neglected citation of the specific passages you're leaning on. Since you're using the same translation I'm using, it's all the more apparent that you haven't done a good job of transmitting the meaning of the text.

tell us the meaning of the text pastor.. I anxiously await your divine explanation.

[Captain Ochre]

#3 is wrong.. The various kingdoms did not speak the same language. They had their own language. And that hurts this whole chronology you've listed here.

You don't know that #3 is wrong. Your reason for claiming that it is wrong is your stilted interpretation of the text.

3) Suppose the various kingdoms spoke different langauges.
4) Suppose that the tower was begun
5) Suppose the languages were confounded.

Why were they confounded when they were already different in step 3?

You were presumptuous in altering point #3.

I'm not asserting something and challenging you to prove it wrong.

I know. You're simply asserting something inaccurate, and I'm trying to get you to lay out your steps of reasoning (by making you quote the texts that supposedly justify your distillation of the account) so that I can correct you to the benefit of all.
Why are you refusing to cooperate?

I'm asking you to answer the question based on your understanding of the genesis story.

I'm pretty sure I've done that. You seem to be trying to change the subject from your avoidance of specific scriptural citations.

I asked you to provide your "accurate" reading of the same text.

I choose to teach you how to accurately interpret the text by getting you to cite the specific text that you use to justify your summary.
Why are you refusing to cooperate?

And you wrote a small list of what you thought happened. Based on the story, your third entry is incorrect.

Incorrect, and it is worth noting that you did not cite a specific verse that supposedly shows that my third point is out of harmony with the text.
Why are you so gung-ho about failing to give specific citations?

thank you oh champion of reason.

Thank me once you correct your error(s).

ok, so when did they settle there?

I don't know. Do you? If you don't, then you should take that into account when you consider alleged tensions between the two chapters.
If you claim to know when they settled there, I would like for you to support your claim using the specific text, making certain that you include the specific verse number. If you're using something other than the NIV, please mention it; otherwise I'll assume you're continuing to use the NIV.

that's why I've asked if they proceeded each other or overlapped..

I don't remember you considering overlap, specifically.
I know that I've asked you to consider it the most likely option, but you've hinted at resistance of that notion by my estimation.

did they settle there after the tower was built or before?

Who knows? Maybe some kingdoms were settled before and some after. The text isn't sufficiently specific to support a hard claim one way or the other, AFAICT.
If you disagree, please cite the verse(s) that you believe support your view, making sure to include the chapter and verse.

so the author, when he wrote "the whole world", he was talking about just one region of the entire planet, and not the whole world as we know it?

Probably.

The "world" that his audience would understand? ok.. if this is the case, then the story makes more sense. Their "world" all spoke the same language, but there were other unknown tribes on the planet that had its own languages.

Again, probably, but the account works fine even if there are no unknown tribes, or if there are unknown tribes who all speak one language in common with those in the known whole world.

ok.. then why don't you offer your "expert" analysis of what really happened in chapters 10 and 11, and maybe we can go from there..

No, thanks. I prefer to employ a Socratic method with you, where we examine what you have written and try to get you to examine the reasoning that you have employed. We've got plenty of material to work from; never fear.

I'm not interested in your insults or observations..

That's okay, since I don't need your permission to post either one (if I should so choose).
OTOH, you asked me for my expert opinion on the Genesis text. You wanted me to evaluate the text without mentioning my observations?

Why don't you stick with question and help clarify your book of faith's text.. and drop the petty kid stuff.

The text is particularly clear, thus it makes sense to focus on your trail of reason (though in truth it is probably a trail of logical fallacies). You'll learn more by understanding your mistakes than you will learn if I simply present you with an answer sheet, IMHO.
Others will learn more, also.

no, you haven't. You've said "suppose this, and suppose that".. Tell the story capt Ogre..

I took "flow correctly" to be in connection with your supposition that the text implied a chronological difficulty. My method of supposing scenarios consistent with the text addresses that issue.
Where you allege that the proposed scenarios are not consistent with the text, it is appropriate for you to support your allegation with a specific text, and you should remember to include the chapter and verse.

Why are you so resistant to complying with this very simple and reasonable request?

tell us the meaning of the text pastor.. I anxiously await your divine explanation.

I intend to help you figure it out on your own, unless you're not sincerely seeking answers to your questoins, in which case I can probably expect you to continue to refuse to cite chapter and verse where you have asserted particular claims regarding the meaning of the text.

If I don't end up teaching you something about Bible interpretation, it seems likely that you'll teach us something about yourself.

[learning]

Jayrok, there are a few things here I thought I'd mention. One, the Bible was written in Hebrew, and some of that is written differently than our language, (order wise on a page) and I think in even reading the part of Genesis where it talks about the different descendants, it can go back and forth, such as saying , so and so was 'descended from' so and so, and also, it says later in the same passage, how so and so was the fore runner of so and so. Like, we are used to saying 'Great-grand father, grand-father, and father, and son, and then it goes on to say, son, father, grand-father etc. I think that we are used to only going one way, and it seems to me that Genesis 11 does both. It is not wrong, just different culturally, I think. (not sure if this is where you are getting a problem in reading this, but thought I'ld mention it anyways)

There is a Bible that has the scriptures written in chronological order, and I think that the 'Back to the Bible' devotional site has Bible reading suggestions in chronological order. I don't know if that would change the way you read it or what you are trying to get at here, but I once read the Bible through (in the year 2000 ) with a chronological reading guide called 'Cover to Cover' and it seemed to really help in how one looks at the historical aspect of it. It can get tricky when you get to Chronicles and Numbers (I think you have to go back and forth a lot) but otherwise, it really is neat, even had Psalms connected with the history of the time they were written.

[learning]

POWELL:
I think ancient people had different languages because it's normal for groups of humans to vary their language over time rather than because God confused the original language when a group built a tower to reach the heavens.

The tower / confused language story sounds like a myth to me.

John Powell

I'm reading a book called 'Synaptic Self' and in it, the author Joseph LeDoux says that the brain (and other scientists say this to) has a grammatical language thing that is the same in ALL humans, and it is considered one of the unique things about humans.

Here's the quote. page 84
"That language may be innate is supported by studies of pidgin language, a simple, crude form of verbal communication among people who speak different languages but live together, but by the second generation, it begins to take on a grammatical structure, suggesting that the underlying innateness of grammar ultimately emerges. The innateness of language, though not universally agreed-upon, is supported additionally by certain genetic conditions that have been linked to specific chromosomes, including the spared language abilities in spite of other mental difficulties in children with Williams syndrome, and the language impairment in spite of otherwise intact mental abilites in specific language impairment (SLI). "

I don't know if this is connected to the language thing at Babel, but obviously, we have, in all languages, an ability to be able to speak to each other, within a second generation. My thought is, that this could be something from back then. That the roots of our human language was all the same. One could say this is connected to Babel, or connected to evolution, but there is something there that is the same across humans.
They say to learn another language, the more you understand your own grammar, tenses, etc., you'll be able to find similar things in another language.