Lost, confused and everything else...

[kevinc]

Hi, my name is Kevin. I've never posted here before, however, I've been a member for close on a year and I'm an avid fan of this website. I love the debates, the intellectual arguments and of course, the great advice that people seem to have. Now, please forgive me if I'm not posting this in the right thread, but "apologetics" seemed the most appropriate as that's who I want to reply. Now, let me get on with why I'm posting.

About 2 years and 4 months ago I became a "Christian." I gave my life to Jesus Christ, serving Him fully. I really did devote myself to Him -- reading His word, praying, everything a good Christian should do. Anyways, I never once knew how to "talk" to God, or if I did, if it was in fact God replying to me. I cannot accept the "you just know" or "have faith that it is Him" argument, as it is completely false, shallow logic.

Now, time has passed quite a bit, and I feel like I just cannot go on. I've changed quite a lot, I attend church, but don't really participate. I don't know if any of you can empathise, but I feel like I really have given God a fair chance. When I cry out with all my heart: "God, if you would just give me ONE revelation, ONE moment that confirms your existence and I will serve you FOREVER" -- and nothing happens, I grow wary. Let's use some scripture -- Proverbs 13:12 -- Hope deferred makes the heart grow tired. I'm tired of hoping. Yes, you may offer a rebuttal of Matthew 5:8 -- Blessed are the pure at heart, for they will see God, however, I really tried. I gave it my all, yet, here I am, still unsure of God's existence. I've studied the word, prayed constantly, yet, noticed no change. Actually, I yearned for my old life -- one which wasn't exactly debaucherous, yet somewhat more pleasant.

I don't know where to go from here. Sometimes I feel the only thing keeping me in a church is the fact that I don't want to change my life ALL over again. For example, seeing an old friend, and having to explain to them that I haven't seen them for the past 2 years because I've been at church, but I'm "over that now."

I'm tired of being a hypocrite. I don't feel Christian. I've tried the "Christian" way with everything I am, and yet I am still to receive even a slight revelation of any kind. How am I supposed to be expected to continue?

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not upset about this at all. I'm not sitting here crying my eyes out because God hasn't shown himself to me -- it just gives me more and more reason to go back to my old life. It's so ironic how Christians see non Christians and atheists. Just prior to this I was reading a rather pathetic thread about how athiests "Hate knowledge" and love the "fun" life. How pathetic. It's incredible how Christians are "taught" how to think. I can't accept this reasoning. Also, I know that if I was to renounce Christianity, I would lose the majority of my Christian friends. I'd be "bad company" and they just wouldn't want to be corrupted.

Please, don't tell me this is a "spiritual attack from the devil." -- if anyone is interested in my little personal dilemma, please reply intelligently.

If I have posted this in the wrong section, forgive me. (Or move it to the appropriate board!)

I anxiously await your replies!
Kevin

[Tercel]

Hi Kevin,

I went through a period like you describe several years ago. I wasn't sure that God was real and lay awake at nights asking him to reveal himself to me, and he didn't. I told myself that even a levitating paperclip would have been enough to convince me and if only God would do that for me to show me he was there I would do anything for him, and no paperclips ever levitated in response to prayer.

In the end, I think it simply came down to a choice on my part about who I wanted to be. I wasn't sure God was real, and I wasn't sure he wasn't. I had read about miracles and spiritual experiences that had happened to other people, but none of them had ever happened to me. It really eventually came down to the fact that I decided I wanted to remain a Christian. I couldn't be sure either way what was true, so I made a decision that being a Christian was how I wanted to live my life. Several years later I still haven't had any miracles happen to me, I think perhaps I've heard from God from time to time but that might just be my own thoughts. Nevertheless, I am content, there is something somewhat freeing about knowing that you have chosen to be what you are rather than letting your life be dictated by whatever your emotional self happens to believe is the "truth" from one moment to the next. Rather than running like a headless chicken not sure what to do and not in control of your own life, I suggest you pick what you want to be and stick with it.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Moderator Notice

I moved this to a Christian-only section as it seemed most appropriate.

***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publically complain or whine, please take it to the Psychotherapy Room unless told otherwise.

[Xmansmommy]

Well said Tercel! Kevin, I don't suggest that I am speaking for all Christians when I say this, but, I've often thought that all Christians struggle with lack of faith at times. I know I have. I know there are times that I still question and I've had some experiences where I felt God was revealing Himself to me. So, just because we have had some evidence is no indicator that we will believe either. I do pray that God reveal Himself to you in a real and tangible fashion. One in which all your fears and doubts will be put to rest. And I pray also that you would be receptive to seeing His hand working in your life. One passage that has always encouraged me when I've struggled is....

Hebrews 11:6

But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

I think it honestly takes time and a real effort on our part to see Him even in the small innerworkings of our lives. I encourage you to seek Him dilligently bro. For I believe He will reward you for doing so. God bless you in your search for answers.

In His Grace,
Linda

[Ormly]

Hi, my name is Kevin. I've never posted here before, however, I've been a member for close on a year and I'm an avid fan of this website. I love the debates, the intellectual arguments and of course, the great advice that people seem to have. Now, please forgive me if I'm not posting this in the right thread, but "apologetics" seemed the most appropriate as that's who I want to reply. Now, let me get on with why I'm posting.

About 2 years and 4 months ago I became a "Christian." I gave my life to Jesus Christ, serving Him fully. I really did devote myself to Him -- reading His word, praying, everything a good Christian should do. Anyways, I never once knew how to "talk" to God, or if I did, if it was in fact God replying to me. I cannot accept the "you just know" or "have faith that it is Him" argument, as it is completely false, shallow logic.

Now, time has passed quite a bit, and I feel like I just cannot go on. I've changed quite a lot, I attend church, but don't really participate. I don't know if any of you can empathise, but I feel like I really have given God a fair chance. When I cry out with all my heart: "God, if you would just give me ONE revelation, ONE moment that confirms your existence and I will serve you FOREVER" -- and nothing happens, I grow wary. Let's use some scripture -- Proverbs 13:12 -- Hope deferred makes the heart grow tired. I'm tired of hoping. Yes, you may offer a rebuttal of Matthew 5:8 -- Blessed are the pure at heart, for they will see God, however, I really tried. I gave it my all, yet, here I am, still unsure of God's existence. I've studied the word, prayed constantly, yet, noticed no change. Actually, I yearned for my old life -- one which wasn't exactly debaucherous, yet somewhat more pleasant.

I don't know where to go from here. Sometimes I feel the only thing keeping me in a church is the fact that I don't want to change my life ALL over again. For example, seeing an old friend, and having to explain to them that I haven't seen them for the past 2 years because I've been at church, but I'm "over that now."

I'm tired of being a hypocrite. I don't feel Christian. I've tried the "Christian" way with everything I am, and yet I am still to receive even a slight revelation of any kind. How am I supposed to be expected to continue?

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not upset about this at all. I'm not sitting here crying my eyes out because God hasn't shown himself to me -- it just gives me more and more reason to go back to my old life. It's so ironic how Christians see non Christians and atheists. Just prior to this I was reading a rather pathetic thread about how athiests "Hate knowledge" and love the "fun" life. How pathetic. It's incredible how Christians are "taught" how to think. I can't accept this reasoning. Also, I know that if I was to renounce Christianity, I would lose the majority of my Christian friends. I'd be "bad company" and they just wouldn't want to be corrupted.

Please, don't tell me this is a "spiritual attack from the devil." -- if anyone is interested in my little personal dilemma, please reply intelligently.

If I have posted this in the wrong section, forgive me. (Or move it to the appropriate board!)

I anxiously await your replies!
Kevin

HI Kevin! May I ask what denomination you are attending? It will be help in understanding what you are being toaught and why.

Thanks, Orm

[Cyrus of Persia]

Hey, Kevin.

I also find such threads more or less arrogant what claim that atheists are stupid and lack knowledge, etc. I believe that some of them have had bad experiences in the past what made them to say good-bye to the concept of God. Some of them are mocking Christians out of their own arrogance, but not all.

What do you mean by saying that you want God to reveal Him to you? Do you mean, that he would visually reveal Himself to you? Or that He would speak with audible voice to you? Or that you would see outstanding miracles happening after you pray?

Let's think. Have you experienced any reply to your prayers at all? Have God spoken to you in your heart when you desperately needed some guidance in your life? Have you checked carefully is God in control over your life? I mean by last question, that even after bad experiences you somehow saw that they were good for your spiritual growth.

I believe that you have experienced some change in your life after you become Christian. You are right when saying that Christians are usually taught to think certain way, and act certain way. Our conciousness and mentality is usually product of the society, or the group where we belong. We start to think and act certain way because of certain socialization. It's all natural. Now, have you ever experienced that besides of all this socialization, there was sometimes God changing your life? That it was not purely your conciousness that has been indoctrinated(?) to Christian ethics, but you see time after time that God is changing you? Of course i don't deny that God is not changing us through other people, or through our conciousness.

I have never seen God with physical eyes. God has never spoken to me in audible voice. I have never seen dead people brought to life again, or cripple people started to walk. But i have witnessed God with my inner eyes. I see Him within me. I feel His presence all the time (even if my FEELINGS are totally out of mood). It's more than feeling - it's certain knowledge that He is here and He is keeping my life in control. I have heard God speaking in my heart when i pray (either in awake state, but also in lucid dreams). He has said things that finally went so as He said. Of course, i know that sometimes it's not Him who is speaking, but my own thoughts. I have witnessed "smaller" miracles of healing. I have experiences how God gives spiritual gifts to people after praying. I know that speaking in tongues is nothing that is unique to Christianity only, but when i asked God to give me this gift, He gave. I feel refreshened and more enlightened after speaking in tongues. I know that the Holy Spirit is within me. And not just because of the gifts, but He is in everyone who has accepted Jesus, whether they know it, or not.

So i suggest to start with small things. God is in details, as they say. If you become more aware of your everyday life, i believe that you start to see more things where God was in control over your life. I pray that He would give you INNER confidence that He is in you and that He is leading you. I suggest not to seek for outer signs and wonders (i think it's something that Jesus warned us against), but for signs and wonders that really matter. Does it matter more if you see big miracles outside, or if you experience miracle of "God in you" by every day basis?

And finally let's speculate that there is no God at all. That ALL my experiences are somehow explained by modern science and i'm totally fooled by the concept of God. That there is no afterlife and we die as rats when our physical body dies. If i compare my past life with the life i'm living now, then i must admit, that i better life in some "autosuggestion", that be addicted to everything i used to be in past. For me Christianity gave more meaningful life than what i had before. This is why i either be in self-deception (IF this all is self-deception) what actually improved my life and gave some meaning to it, than to be the same fool i used to be.

Sorry for my English, i'm not English speaker. I wish you all the best and i wish that God might show Himself more to you in your heart.

[Ormly]

I believe with all in me that the reason we have not lies in this article I have repeatedly posted that no one has responded to. At the risk of being redundant I offer it once more:

JESUS CHRIST, THE BAPTIZER





“THERE WAS A MAN SENT FROM GOD, whose name was John. .. . The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.... And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

“And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining upon him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

“And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God” (John 1:6, 29, 32—34).

Every one of the four Gospels spells out John’s declaration, “I indeed baptize you with water; he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.” When the Pharisees asked, “Why baptizeth thou?” he replied, “That he should be made manifest.. . therefore I am come baptizing with water” (John 1: 25, 31). Furthermore, John assured them that he was sent to baptize with water (vs. 33). It was his ministry. This fact was recognized to such an extent that he became known as “John the Baptist.”

I doubt whether one could find a ten-year-old in Christendom that has not yet learned about John the Baptist. All through the ages, generation after generation, men have learned of this great prophet, but they know him by what he did and not by what he said or prophesied. Yet we know that he was both prophet and baptizer.

In recent times I have been astonished to find that very few Christians have ever heard that Christ is the baptizer in the Holy Ghost. They know Him as the Lamb of God, as Saviour; and as the Son of God, our Lord; but they are unfamiliar with the fact that He was announced to the world as the One to whom God gave the ministry of baptizing with the Holy Ghost.

Jesus Christ is both Saviour and Baptizer. We have no doubt that He is as much the Saviour today as when He died on Calvary as the Lamb of God. Even so, He is still the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit as much as He was when He commenced this ministry on the Day of Pentecost, for He is the “same, yesterday, today and forever.”

I have just traveled in seven countries and addressed over 300 ministers belonging to seven of the major classical Protestant churches. During these three months I have read a great variety of ecclesiastical writings, touching upon almost every subject and event between Easter and Pentecost. From Ascension to Pentecost. I have listened to many radio talks in several languages. Not once did I hear a minister, see in a paper, or hear over the radio any mention that Christ baptized with the Holy Spirit. In conversations many that questioned me or spoke to me expressed some surprise at my strong emphasis upon the message that Christ is the Baptizer in the Spirit. I have heard much about the work of the Spirit, about receiving the Spirit, and even about the coming of the Spirit, but nothing is ever said about being baptized with the Spirit.

The first intimation in history that a baptism with the Spirit was a possible event in the life of a human being came from John the Baptist. However, he did not announce the experience but rather the one who gave such an experience. He announced that the Baptizer was coming. He clearly states that God had told him that Christ would be the Baptizer with the Holy Ghost. He also assures us that the image for this act of Christ was his own act of baptizing in the river. From the very beginning, therefore, all John’s converts fully expected an experience that would be as overwhelming as their baptism in the river. These converts had an encounter with the baptizer and not with water or even the river. What they were to expect was an encounter with the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit and not with the Spirit or with the work of the Spirit in their lives.

For every baptism there must be an agent to baptize, and an element with or into which to baptize, and finally a candidate to be baptized. Such a candidate must present himself and ask for baptism. Then there must be a total and complete surrender to the baptizer and not to the element in which he baptizes. The baptism in the Holy Spirit is an encounter with Christ, the Baptizer. The candidates are those who have already had an encounter with Him as the Lamb of God, the Saviour, who took away all their sin and made them worthy temples of the Holy Spirit.

The disciples who left John and followed Christ that He might baptize them with the Holy Spirit discovered that He was full of the Spirit. They saw His miracles to prove it and heard His word to confirm it. Then He gave them power and authority to cast out devils and heal the sick, but that was not the baptism in the Spirit that they expected. Finally they saw Him weak and as a Lamb led to the slaughter, and He opened not His mouth. He died on the cross and was laid in the tomb, and no one had been baptized in the Spirit. What about John’s prophecy? Was it all mythical or mystical?

In the evening of that first Easter day of Resurrection, He suddenly and unexpectedly appeared in their midst. Then He breathed on them and said, ‘Receive ye the Holy Ghost.” This was after He had explained, “As my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.” But how did His Father send Him? First He came, born of the Spirit (Luke 1:35), and then He was endued with the Spirit (Luke 4: 1) to commence His earthly ministry. So here the disciples became the very first members of a new body, the church. He breathed eternal life into them. Calvary, the all-effective altar of God, had dealt with the sin question, and those who were dead in trespasses and sin now could receive the life-giving, regenerating Holy Spirit. This was for them the occasion where they were baptized into one body by the Spirit (I Cor.12:13).

But John said that God had said that Jesus would baptize with the Spirit, not that He would give the Spirit. I wonder how these disciples thought and felt about all these strange things? However, a few weeks later Jesus again spoke to the same men to whom He had said, “Receive ye the Holy Ghost.” Now He confirms John’s message. He says to them, “John truly baptized with water: but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence” (Acts 1: 5). Here Christ accepts and confirms the same image that God had given to John, a baptism in water and a baptism in the Holy Spirit—indeed a river baptism, but the river of life must first begin to flow upon earth.

Several predictions were confirmed on the Day of Pentecost. The Father gave the promised Holy Ghost, who was heard as wind and seen as fire. Jesus began to baptize in the Spirit and fire. The immediate consequence of this baptism was that the candidates began to speak with other tongues as Jesus had promised (Mark 16: 17). Then the Holy Spirit began to convict of sin, righteousness and judgment as Peter preached to the multitude (John 16:8). But the record says, “They were all filled {overflowed] with the Holy Ghost, and [of which was] they began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance” (Acts2:4).

It seems that from this very day onward much more emphasis was given to the experience of the disciples than to the act of Jesus the Baptizer, and the whole controversy began to revolve around glossolalia—speaking with other tongues—which was the very simple consequence of this baptism in the Spirit. The Holy Spirit was the gift and tongues was the consequence. These tongues were a manifestation of the Holy Spirit and not a manifestation of the ecstasy of the human spirit. Speaking in tongues by the Holy Spirit or, as Paul puts it, “Praying with the Spirit,” is an act of the Holy Spirit upon the human spirit which transcends the understanding (I Cor.14: 14, 15).

Thus it seems clear that on the day of Pentecost the spirit of the disciples was baptized into the Holy Spirit and their bodies were filled with the Holy Spirit—overflowed with the Holy Spirit. The fact that they commenced to speak “with the Spirit” was proof of this overflowing.

In our day many pray for an infilling, an experience, instead of seeking the Baptizer. They ask the Holy Spirit to fill them when they should be asking Christ to baptize them. The baptism will produce the filling. This filling of the body by the baptism of the human spirit into the Holy Spirit produces an overflowing (see John 7:38) which causes the vocal organs to go into action and speak a language that is unknown to the candidate. He may be fully aware of what he is doing but does not know what he is saying (I Cor.14:14).

On the day of Pentecost God gave the Holy Spirit and Christ then baptized His followers into the Spirit, and they began to speak with other tongues as the spirit gave them utterance (Acts 2:4). About 10 years later, according to Acts 10:44—46, when the Apostle Peter dared to preach to the Gentiles for the first time (Acts 11:19), these same Gentiles received exactly the same experience that the apostles and the disciples of Christ had on the day of Pentecost. The record says, “And they of the circumcision [Jews] were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God” (Acts 10:46). The Jewish Christians in Jerusalem objected to all this. (Acts 11:2). Then Peter in his defense said, “And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost” (Acts 11: 15, 16). In other words, it was the same Baptizer who baptized into the same element, with the same consequences. The consequences were what convinced the Jewish Christians that the experience of the Gentiles was valid, for they heard them speak with tongues (Acts.10:46).

From this record it is quite clear that during the first decade Peter and the church in Jerusalem believed that Jesus is the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit and that “speaking with tongues” was the immediate consequence or confirmation of this baptism. During this last decade in our time the Christian world has become more conscious of the Holy Spirit and many are reaching out for His power and a charismatic ministry. However, it seems to me that unless the church once again lifts up Christ as the Baptizer, many will seek the blessing from the Holy Spirit and fail to find it because He will always honor Christ.

To get the baptism in the Spirit everyone must seek an encounter with the Baptizer, who began this ministry on the day of Pentecost when He truly came back in the Spirit to baptize His disciples. He is the same, yesterday, today and forever (Heb.13:8).



David Duplessis .......[Mr. Pentecost]

[Teallaura]

Hi, my name is Kevin. I've never posted here before, however, I've been a member for close on a year and I'm an avid fan of this website. I love the debates, the intellectual arguments and of course, the great advice that people seem to have. Now, please forgive me if I'm not posting this in the right thread, but "apologetics" seemed the most appropriate as that's who I want to reply. Now, let me get on with why I'm posting.

About 2 years and 4 months ago I became a "Christian." I gave my life to Jesus Christ, serving Him fully. I really did devote myself to Him -- reading His word, praying, everything a good Christian should do. Anyways, I never once knew how to "talk" to God, or if I did, if it was in fact God replying to me. I cannot accept the "you just know" or "have faith that it is Him" argument, as it is completely false, shallow logic.

Now, time has passed quite a bit, and I feel like I just cannot go on. I've changed quite a lot, I attend church, but don't really participate. I don't know if any of you can empathise, but I feel like I really have given God a fair chance. When I cry out with all my heart: "God, if you would just give me ONE revelation, ONE moment that confirms your existence and I will serve you FOREVER" -- and nothing happens, I grow wary. Let's use some scripture -- Proverbs 13:12 -- Hope deferred makes the heart grow tired. I'm tired of hoping. Yes, you may offer a rebuttal of Matthew 5:8 -- Blessed are the pure at heart, for they will see God, however, I really tried. I gave it my all, yet, here I am, still unsure of God's existence. I've studied the word, prayed constantly, yet, noticed no change. Actually, I yearned for my old life -- one which wasn't exactly debaucherous, yet somewhat more pleasant.

I don't know where to go from here. Sometimes I feel the only thing keeping me in a church is the fact that I don't want to change my life ALL over again. For example, seeing an old friend, and having to explain to them that I haven't seen them for the past 2 years because I've been at church, but I'm "over that now."

I'm tired of being a hypocrite. I don't feel Christian. I've tried the "Christian" way with everything I am, and yet I am still to receive even a slight revelation of any kind. How am I supposed to be expected to continue?

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not upset about this at all. I'm not sitting here crying my eyes out because God hasn't shown himself to me -- it just gives me more and more reason to go back to my old life. It's so ironic how Christians see non Christians and atheists. Just prior to this I was reading a rather pathetic thread about how athiests "Hate knowledge" and love the "fun" life. How pathetic. It's incredible how Christians are "taught" how to think. I can't accept this reasoning. Also, I know that if I was to renounce Christianity, I would lose the majority of my Christian friends. I'd be "bad company" and they just wouldn't want to be corrupted.

Please, don't tell me this is a "spiritual attack from the devil." -- if anyone is interested in my little personal dilemma, please reply intelligently.

If I have posted this in the wrong section, forgive me. (Or move it to the appropriate board!)

I anxiously await your replies!
Kevin

Hi!

I think you've gotten some good replies thus far. I'm not going to try and tell you what’s 'wrong' with you - likely nothing at all. Doubt and uncertainty are a part of learning to trust God (not the fun part, granted). I don't know exactly where you are in your faith, but God does. I can only tell you the little I know from my own experience.

I've been an atheist - was for ten years. I was quite comfortable in my atheism - until God got my attention in a way I could not ignore. He did reveal Himself to me, it tiny miracles - done just for me. Without them, I wouldn't be here- I couldn't have stood the pain I was in at the time - the pain He took away and the remainder He helped control.

I wasn't looking for God right then - didn't know I needed Him until I had no choice. Two miracles - not that I'll ever be able to prove them to anyone else - but then again, I don't need to - they were for me. But time passes and doubts creep in - I struggled with doubt even after those miracles. Everyone, if they are honest, struggles with doubt at some time. Hey, John baptized Jesus - recognized Him as the Messiah and he doubted! It's natural - we like to have reassurance.

You gave your life to the Lord, so now you have some hard decisions to make. Are you going to be an Indian giver simply because He won't do what you ask of Him? I understand you need reassurance - been there, done that - but maybe you also need faith? Maybe, by not answering, God is trying to get you to trust Him for Who He is and get you to take another step toward a mature faith. Sometimes, you are asked to just jump into your Father's arms - even though you aren't sure He's there. To trust Him, even with your doubts, that He is real and does love you. You trusted Him once before - when you accepted His word of salvation. Now, can you trust Him when He doesn't seem to be there?

Like I said, I don't know where you are in your faith - I just remember my own 'dry spells' where God didn't seem to answer, even when I asked. I'd told Him I'd follow Him no matter what. But I wasn't so sure when I couldn't feel Him. But He was still the same God that got me to where I'd needed to be before - who'd come after me when I didn't know I needed Him. I chose to trust Him anyway - to keep my word to Him, even though I was unsure.

There haven't been anymore miracles - but I haven't needed them. As time passed, I found He was there and I could feel His presence again. He'd never left; like my earthly father teaching me to ride a bike, the time had come to let go of the bike and let me ride. But He had stayed right by my side the whole time, even and especially in my doubts.

I can't tell you what you need to do - you'll have to learn that yourself. Asking God would be a good place to start. Right now, you're telling Him what to do (been there, done that!) - try asking Him what He would have you do and keep asking even in the silence. (yeah, I know how hard that is - I really do. Try it, He's there.) You aren't a hypocrite for having doubts - we all have them sometimes. You are just a baby - those first steps are tough.

You've been trying to 'do' Christianity - but you can't. No one can! 'Do'ing Christianity is missing the point. It's a relationship with the God who loves you - religion only as a secondary consideration. Don't feel bad - lots of people get so caught up in 'doing' that they miss 'being'. You've trusted Christ to save you from your sins - now, take that little mustard seed and trust Him to love you even when you do not understand.

Okay, so I did end up telling you what to do. I know how hard this is - in a way, God's paying you a compliment - He's telling you that you can grow - or He'd never let you be tested this way. He loves you - He's not setting you up to fail! He's setting you up to succeed - because, if you will trust Him, He'll catch you- He'll see you through this 'dry spell' and the many other trials to come - and each time you will get stronger and more sure.

If you needed a miracle, He'd have sent it. If you needed a revelation, He'd have done it. But if you need to learn how to just hold on and trust Him, can you think of a better way than asking you to just exactly that, when you haven't got a clue as to what He's up to?

You planted your mustard seed of faith when you accepted Christ - way to go! Now, maybe you're being asked to water it? Can't see it - don't know what's going on - not sure that the Gardener is even there - but maybe, just maybe, the key is to do what you know to do - trust Him - even when you aren't sure why. Water the seed, my friend. See what happens. Trust Him.

I hope this helps you. I will be praying for you.

[Xmansmommy]

Excellent post Teallaura! for you also Kevin.

[kevinc]

Thank you all so much for your excellent replies. I did read all of them (except the LONG article, which I'll read after this reply.) I do want to clear some stuff up for you:

As most of you say, you can "feel" God's presence around you, "know" that he answers your prayers, etc. Now, I don't feel any of this. Never have. I've been on church camps, where everyone around me is crying, all emotional (yes, it's just emotion...), where there was clearly something "spiritual" going on... yet I could not, for the life of me feel anything different -- and I never have. I even tried to convince myself that something did happen, that I was in some way changed, yet, nothing, ever.


So there I stand... in praise and worship, singing along occasionaly... thinking to myself "What am I doing?" -- I know people all around are worried about me, as I once was an avid "worshipper" and now I'm not.

Oh, to answer Ormly, I attend a non-denominational church, colloquially known as a "happy-clappy" church. It's a great church, and it would certainly not be the reason for me leaving. I don't believe they're the problem, I think it's me.

Then there's the issue of quality of life. As one of you said, "Even if I'm wrong, I'd still be a Christian because I believe the life I'm living now is better..." well... for me, it isn't really. I really wasn't unhappy not being Christian. I didn't have some major void in my life that needed filling... I was blissfully content.

I'm not looking for some audible voice, some divine appearance... just that "feeling" that makes your doubt subside... that feeling that makes you sure, even in "dry" patches that what you're devoting your life to is in fact real. THAT is what I lack... try empathise with me for a second -- imagine taking away that "feeling" you get that assures you God is there -- now, subtract any "WOW" experiences you've had before... NOW try imagine what it's like. I believe it may be appropriately termed as "blind faith."

I think Tercel summed it up best when he said: "It simply comes down to choice." Now, I'm at a crossroad - I can choose to go back to the "ignorant" Christian times, where I would read my Bible, pray, yet still feel nothing, get no inspiration, not be touched etc OR, I could return to my "completely ignorant" life, where I cut out Christianity completely, and still lead a "decent" life, just without the pressure and worries of if I'm actually pleasing God, or, even that I have the responsibility to pursue Him. It's very hard to be interested in something when you're not sure of it's existence. For example, when people talk about "God's plan for my life" I don't get at all excited about it. I'm missing a revelation.

I'm not looking to become an "athiest," more of a "non-practicing Christian" -- which half of the Christian world seems to be.

With regards to tongues - I cannot help but be extermely sceptical of this. I too spoke in tongues, yet was CONSTANTLY filled with doubt as to what I was actually doing. Why? Because I COMPLETELY believe that tongues can be learned. For example, take Sally, Jane and Penelope. All 3 speak in tongues. Let me spend a week with all of them, then, record them speaking in tongues, then, "monotonize" their voices, making them indistinguishable -- I will be able to tell you which "tongue" belongs to who. It appears to me people learn patterns and repeat them. I've stopped speaking in tongues, although, if I so desire, I could rattle off right now. The only way I believe that tongues can be beneficial is because it provides you with a psychological assurance that something great has happened - I cannot see this.

Anyways, now you know a little more about me! I'm really grateful to all of you for replying and taking an interest. If you have any more questions - ask away!

[Ormly]

Thank you all so much for your excellent replies. I did read all of them (except the LONG article, which I'll read after this reply.) I do want to clear some stuff up for you:

As most of you say, you can "feel" God's presence around you, "know" that he answers your prayers, etc. Now, I don't feel any of this. Never have. I've been on church camps, where everyone around me is crying, all emotional (yes, it's just emotion...), where there was clearly something "spiritual" going on... yet I could not, for the life of me feel anything different -- and I never have. I even tried to convince myself that something did happen, that I was in some way changed, yet, nothing, ever.


So there I stand... in praise and worship, singing along occasionaly... thinking to myself "What am I doing?" -- I know people all around are worried about me, as I once was an avid "worshipper" and now I'm not.

Oh, to answer Ormly, I attend a non-denominational church, colloquially known as a "happy-clappy" church. It's a great church, and it would certainly not be the reason for me leaving. I don't believe they're the problem, I think it's me.

Then there's the issue of quality of life. As one of you said, "Even if I'm wrong, I'd still be a Christian because I believe the life I'm living now is better..." well... for me, it isn't really. I really wasn't unhappy not being Christian. I didn't have some major void in my life that needed filling... I was blissfully content.

I'm not looking for some audible voice, some divine appearance... just that "feeling" that makes your doubt subside... that feeling that makes you sure, even in "dry" patches that what you're devoting your life to is in fact real. THAT is what I lack... try empathise with me for a second -- imagine taking away that "feeling" you get that assures you God is there -- now, subtract any "WOW" experiences you've had before... NOW try imagine what it's like. I believe it may be appropriately termed as "blind faith."

I think Tercel summed it up best when he said: "It simply comes down to choice." Now, I'm at a crossroad - I can choose to go back to the "ignorant" Christian times, where I would read my Bible, pray, yet still feel nothing, get no inspiration, not be touched etc OR, I could return to my "completely ignorant" life, where I cut out Christianity completely, and still lead a "decent" life, just without the pressure and worries of if I'm actually pleasing God, or, even that I have the responsibility to pursue Him. It's very hard to be interested in something when you're not sure of it's existence. For example, when people talk about "God's plan for my life" I don't get at all excited about it. I'm missing a revelation.

I'm not looking to become an "athiest," more of a "non-practicing Christian" -- which half of the Christian world seems to be.

With regards to tongues - I cannot help but be extermely sceptical of this. I too spoke in tongues, yet was CONSTANTLY filled with doubt as to what I was actually doing. Why? Because I COMPLETELY believe that tongues can be learned. For example, take Sally, Jane and Penelope. All 3 speak in tongues. Let me spend a week with all of them, then, record them speaking in tongues, then, "monotonize" their voices, making them indistinguishable -- I will be able to tell you which "tongue" belongs to who. It appears to me people learn patterns and repeat them. I've stopped speaking in tongues, although, if I so desire, I could rattle off right now. The only way I believe that tongues can be beneficial is because it provides you with a psychological assurance that something great has happened - I cannot see this.

Anyways, now you know a little more about me! I'm really grateful to all of you for replying and taking an interest. If you have any more questions - ask away!

You are ruined for the world and unfit for the kingdom of God, a man most miserable who needs to make up his mind whom he will serve. You need to make up your mind. One way leads to life, the other death. This you know so whats the problem except you need to get angry with yourself.

[{Tim}]

You are ruined for the world and unfit for the kingdom of God, a man most miserable who needs to make up his mind whom he will serve. You need to make up your mind. One way leads to life, the other death. This you know so whats the problem except you need to get angry with yourself.

Umm... Ormly, that doesn't seem particularly helpful to me... if I understand him correctly, Kevin's problem is that he wants to believe, but struggles to find it believeable... how will your post help with this? Are you not being unnecessarily harsh? How will "getting angry" help, and on what basis do you think "anger" is justified?

[Ormly]

Umm... Ormly, that doesn't seem particularly helpful to me... if I understand him correctly, Kevin's problem is that he wants to believe, but struggles to find it believeable... how will your post help with this?

Based on his experiences, I don't believe so. He knows.

Are you not being unnecessarily harsh? How will "getting angry" help, and on what basis do you think "anger" is justified?

Because he is arguing with himself in an attempt to find a compromise that will relieve guilt. There is no compromise and one must "be a man" in the thing. Getting angry with himself I believe is what I said. We all do that from time to time in life. This must be his time or get left out.

[learning]

Hey kevinc, have you ever read 'Pilgrim's Progress'? Try and get a modern english version, or even children's version if you can. I was raised in a Christian home, though I became a Christian from watching Billy Graham on t.v., no one pushed me, though I did it as a child. I am glad it happened to me as a child, cause I think I would have had too many questions later. Anyways, I grew as a Christian through camps, even went to Bible College for two years, went through some emotional struggles, but it seemed that God was always with me. Then four years ago (or five) I think it was in 1999 or 2000, I started to look into the creation-evolution debate. I hadn't worried about it before, just believed God could do creation in long ages if He wanted. But in that, I came across some 'Rationalists' writings against the Bible and the 'morality of God' that I had never thought of before. I lost faith. Went to camp, saw and heard people singing and praising around me (I went to church camp cause I knew the activities were still good for my kids) and felt so out of it. I guess that there was a wish that it were true, but somehow I couldn't believe. (I had been debating by e-mail with an atheist, and had been doing pretty good, cause I knew the Bible fairly well, could even point out a few mistakes he made but then, some of his arguments got to me, and I wasn't so sure about the Bible. I also wasn't so sure about a 'loving' God anymore, though I do remember once praying to God about how come I saw Him as a heavenly Father, and others saw Him as some kind of ogre, and I felt that He said to me 'Oh, my child, my child.')

Well, at this camp, there was a violin player, he was really good, one of the best in Canada, played with Toronto Symphany and Opera, had played the background music in the movie 'Fly Away Home' and another movie. His wife was singing 'I love you, I love you, that's what Calvary means.' and I thought, nice dream, wish it were true. I found his violin playing still healing for me, and I was thankful to just listen. Then, on the last night, a Friday, that he was there, he spoke (usually he just played) and he said that when he was two he got epilepsy, and when he was five, God healed him, and he would never forget that. Well, I started to weep, as I felt that God had encouraged him to speak out to help me believe again.

I would suggest that you read the Psalms and Pilgrim's Progress. The Psalms ask God 'How Long?' or 'Where are you God?' It is for us to pray to God in times like this. I had never read Pilgrim's Progress until after I had lost my faith. In it, it tells of how Pilgrim gets the sword (the Bible) knocked out of his hand by Apollyon (satan) and that is exactly what had happened to me. I had lost faith in God's word. Then Pilgrim gets off the trail and ends up in the dungeon of doubt. Again, what happened to me, by getting off the tract of creation-evolution into atheism stuff. But the key that unlocked the chains of doubt, for Pilgrim, and me, were God's promises. Even if you don't feel anything, try and think of God's promises. Like 'I will never leave you nor forsake you.' I believe we can sometimes leave God, but He won't leave us.
(No, He doesn't leave us, Praise Him!)

I have to say, that I lost faith again, and it was from looking at myself and how 'awful' I was as a Christian. I didn't see Christianity working in my life then, and I really messed up in something personal and wanted to end it all. But a sister in Christ prayed for me, and even posted on her discussion board, please pray for 'my name' as she felt a strong urge to pray for me. For me, I knew that had to be God telling her, cause no one else knew what I was going through. So, that helped me.( I hope you haven't read this before, cause I have repeated this some).

I hope kevinc, that you will be like the son in the parable that Jesus gave. Two sons were told by a Father to do something. One said, 'Yes, I'll do it, but he didn't.' the other said 'No, I won't. But then he did.' I hope you'll be like the second.

Of course, faith is not a thing of feeling. Even though I like feelings of confidence, I have to admit I was up all last night praying over something, didn't get sleep (and I need it badly) but somehow, I still believe that God will see me through. I didn't get peace, but I trust that somehow, He'll help me through. Sometimes faith is plowing through, even if you are in the 'dark night of the soul'. Have you heard of that before? Where Christians who love God, have felt Him, no longer feel His presence. A Bible professor explained that sometimes God puts us through these 'Dark nights of the soul' so that we grow in faith. You see, He doesn't want us relying on a 'feeling' He wants us to rely on Him. And so, He pulls back a bit, in order for us to grow. He doesn't want 'children' He wants Sons and Daughters. It is not a bad thing. It shows trust in you, if God is doing this now.

[Ormly]

It is not a bad thing. It shows trust in you, if God is doing this now.

It doesn't show trust. It shows test --that He might trust. Big difference. Jesus went through the same process.