Is God Immoral?

[Jedidiah]

This is a boilerplate response to deflect the horror of stabbing war orphans. I'd wager you'd take up arms against a neighborhood baby sacrifice party--as would I--while sitting on your duff at the discovery of zygote disposal. Which is what most "pro-life" Christians do.

None reply. I said abortion is worse than what you call atrocities. You respond with this?

[Jedidiah]

And you're rallying for their prosecution in what way?

The only way I have. The ballot box.

[jordanriver]

His statement wasn't in a book of prophecy or in that sort of context at all. I take it more as the sort of comforting thing that people say at funerals (see you soon someday, etc.). At that point in time, the Jews did not have the full picture of what happens after death, and would not until Jesus came. (Much of the Old Testament is indicative of that; there are not many hints of life after death in there.) David was no exception.

2 Samuel 12:23
"23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."

"go to him"?
I am pretty sure if David was going to him, then "him" must have been in heaven, seeing as how David called Jesus "my Lord" (Psalm 110:1)

John Gill says heaven
"I shall go to him;
to the state of the dead, to the grave, where his body was, or would be; to heaven and eternal happiness, where his soul was, as he comfortably hoped and believed: from whence it appears, that the Old Testament saints did not suppose an annihilation at death; but believed the immortality of the soul, a future state after death of eternal life and bliss:"

Matthew Henry says
"I shall go to him. First, To him to the grave. Note, The consideration of our own death should moderate our sorrow at the death of our relations. It is the common lot; instead of mourning for their death, we should think of our own: and, whatever loss we have of them now, we shall die shortly, and go to them. Secondly, To him to heaven, to a state of blessedness, which even the Old Testament saints had some expectation of. Godly parents have great reason to hope concerning their children that die in infancy that it is well with their souls in the other world; for the promise is to us and to our seed, which shall be performed to those that do not put a bar in their own door, as infants do not..."


John Wesley says:
"12:23 I fast - Seeing fasting and prayer cannot now prevail with God for his life. I shall go to him - Into the state of the dead in which he is, and into heaven, where I doubt not I shall find him."

so I am not the only one who interprets that as more than just a hope on David's part,

a hope on our part in the present day, but not on David who was sort of an insider back then.

[jordanriver]

Yes, just spearing through the stomach. How else do you imagine the Midianite boys were dispatched?

I am not sure the Hebrews obeyed.

does that comfort you

[Enjolras]

2 Samuel 12:23
"23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."

"go to him"?
I am pretty sure if David was going to him, then "him" must have been in heaven, seeing as how David called Jesus "my Lord" (Psalm 110:1)

I think all that was meant in David's day was the grave. The concept of 'heaven' as understood in the NT came much later.

[jordanriver]

I think all that was meant in David's day was the grave. The concept of 'heaven' as understood in the NT came much later.

a few hundred years after David, but a few hundred years before the NT

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

[whag]

The only way I have. The ballot box.

What an incredibly ineffectual response to the holocaust: voting for career-minded fools who couldn't care less about you or America's children.

If mothers were throwing babies off cliffs as a propitiation to strange gods, I don't think voting would be my first action. You really don't believe mothers are essentially doing that, do you?

[KingsGambit]

What an incredibly ineffectual response to the holocaust: voting for career-minded fools who couldn't care less about you or America's children.

If mothers were throwing babies off cliffs as a propitiation to strange gods, I don't think voting would be my first action. You really don't believe mothers are essentially doing that, do you?

In the days of the Roman Empire, it was common for female newborns to be killed by exposure. What did the early Christians do? They didn't take armed action against the government. They rescued children they could and raised them themselves. You see that today with the charity efforts of many Christians through adoption and physical care of pregnant mothers.

[whag]

I am not sure the Hebrews obeyed.

does that comfort you

You should make up your mind. Either you have the courage of your convictions that killing Midianite children was a tender mercy, or you stand behind your belief that the Hebrews never received the mandate to commit infanticide.

[KingsGambit]

I think all that was meant in David's day was the grave. The concept of 'heaven' as understood in the NT came much later.

I believe you're right. There are of course hints of it in the OT, as jordanriver's post from Daniel alludes to, but it's not really possible to get a full systematic treatment of the afterlife from the OT.

[whag]

In the days of the Roman Empire, it was common for female newborns to be killed by exposure. What did the early Christians do? They didn't take armed action against the government. They rescued children they could and raised them themselves. You see that today with the charity efforts of many Christians through adoption and physical care of pregnant mothers.

They sacrificed instead of pretending their voting was real effort or effectual in any way

And it's not true that most pro-life Christians do anything of the sort you described. If it were, there wouldn't be a waiting list of orphans waiting for homes and mothers on food stamps.

And all this circles back to the problem of Midianite infanticide and Christians making the same arguments that pro-aborts make to defend that infanticide.

[jordanriver]

You should make up your mind. Either you have the courage of your convictions that killing Midianite children was a tender mercy, or you stand behind your belief that the Hebrews never received the mandate to commit infanticide.

huh??????????


where do you get the idea that I said that "the Hebrews never received the mandate to commit infanticide"


here is all I said:

I am not sure the Hebrews obeyed.

does that comfort you

that does not mean they never got their marching orders.

I already said at the beginning of this thread (POST 4) that I didn't think the Hebrews followed through on the command to permanently remove the pagan cultures (follow through implies something to follow through on)

[KingsGambit]

They sacrificed instead of pretending their voting was real effort or effectual in any way

And it's not true that most pro-life Christians do anything of the sort you described. If it were, there wouldn't be a waiting list of orphans waiting for homes and mothers on food stamps.

And all this circles back to the problem of Midianite infanticide and Christians making the same arguments that pro-aborts make to defend that infanticide.

I didn't say that most did. I wish I could truthfully say that.

[whag]

huh??????????


where do you get the idea that I said that "the Hebrews never received the mandate to commit infanticide"


here is all I said:



that does not mean they never got their marching orders.

I already said at the beginning of this thread (POST 4) that I didn't think the Hebrews followed through on the command to permanently remove the pagan cultures (follow through implies something to follow through on)

Oh I get it. You believe that the Hebrews didn't listen to Moses when he told them to kill the baby boys, even though the Bible doesn't say they disobeyed Moses' order.

[jordanriver]

What an incredibly ineffectual response to the holocaust: voting for career-minded fools who couldn't care less about you or America's children.

?

hmmm,
I actually agree with you on this point..



I don't like the idea of voting for someone else (i.e. representatives) to do my voting for me. I know how to vote.
Direct democracy (or ballot initiatives) seems like a better idea when it comes to social issues.