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  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    What you claim has little meaning.
    It is indeed meaningful to me to correct your misconceptions of my beliefs.

    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    It is the claim of the Christianity.

    'Some' does not make your case convincing. 'Some' can believe anything across a broad vague set of beliefs. This response is too vague to be real.
    Again, just trying to correct your attempt to categorize my beliefs incorrectly.

    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Question remains unanswered. Your standard Duck, Bob and Weave interrupting a thread with OFF TOPIC denigrating posts.

    Studying other theologies does not make your case. That is a two dimensional scape goat.
    My case here is merely correcting your attempt to brand me with Roman Catholic dogmas. Stating my beliefs, or lack thereof, is quite simply all that is needed to make my case.

    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Read the appropriate thread, and you will find this blatantly false instead of denigrating nonsense OFF TOPIC.

    Your strawman and unsupported accusations to avoid addressing the issues at hand, and changing the subject of threads with your denigrating unsupported accusations.
    I have asked you before to point to a single time that you have ever been critical of Baha'i tradition and to the best of my knowledge you have never done so.

    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    The problem is 'not much' in the evolution of the Roman Church. Essentially no change.

    PUT UP OR SHUT UP. You made the denigrating accusation back it up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    THIS IS MY THREAD> STOP DENIGRATING WITH OFF TOPIC ISSUES OR GET OUT!!!!!!

    There is an appropriate thread in Comparative Religions for this not here!!
    In this very thread I have already chronicled your false ad hominem argumentation used against OingoBoingo, pancreasman, Joseph, and me. Read your own thread.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

    Comment


    • If we assume "Reciprocity" as the basic foundation of human decency and we allow for the same respect and dignity to other paradigms as our own---then on what basis should we criticize or call for improvement?

      Some may decide on an arbitrary criteria that any new paradigm is better than any old one simply because it is newer...or...
      one might decide using a value such as "Universalism" and say that those paradigms that are more universal in degree are commensurately better than those that are less universal....or
      one might use a set of values such as paradigms that contribute to framing principles such that of--- justice balanced with compassion and mercy, equality balanced with reciprocity, freedom balanced with responsibility...etc in a consistent and wholistic fashion are of more benefit.....or....
      maybe some other measure/analysis.....

      The Quran gives some pragmatic advice

      Surah 5:48 partial
      "...To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;"
      Surah 45:22
      "God created the heavens and the earth for just ends, and in order that each soul may find the recompense of what it has earned, and none of them shall be wronged"
      Surah 3:104
      "Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong: They are the ones to attain felicity."

      The paradigm of most benefit is one that guides and encourages humanity to DO good both individually and as a group (community/nation) so that its intentions and conduct safeguard all of God's creations and restrict harm to them. Tangible changes for good brought about by the actions of that group of humans is one measure of determining the "success" of a paradigm....and perhaps more pragmatic than theoretical discussions....

      A focus on action rather than quibbling over theory would also contribute more beneficially to building our future together---since "building" implies action and actions for good are less divisive, more "pluriversal". Thus, all of us can come together with our different paradigms but still make essential contributions to the good (of all of God's creations....)

      So we cannot be passive survivors on this earth, but must become active stakeholders and teach this to the next generation also...improvement will only come about with human actions.

      For Muslims---this means to revive and restore the Tawhidic paradigm so that our intentions and actions conforms to "God's will" in a wholistic, balanced and harmonious way...
      (God's will=Right belief that promotes right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations.")...to implement this (to day and in future) will require much critical reflections and pragmatic solutions to problems facing us/humanity----but this should not be a onetime process rather an ongoing one that every generation must actively participate in....

      Comment


      • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
        ... Baha'i boosterism is contrary to all that is best in the Baha'i faith correctly understood and appreciated. The Bahá'u'lláh himself would not accept your tactics offered in support of the Bahá'u'lláh.
        Indeed -- and I am sorry if you have encountered Bahai boosterism, or "triumphalism" to use the usual.

        Bahai belief in the unity of religion(s) rests not only on religion's common origin in the Absolute, and the transforming power that, at their best, religion(s) exhibit, but also in the idea that the religions have all pointed in one direction, and that the Bahai faith is "the next step." That linear element is a seductive invitation to triumphalism: the idea that the values and truths and community structures of the new religion make the others obsolete and they must fall away.

        The two big problems with triumphalism for Bahais are first that it is a self-defeating prophecy, because a new religious community that goes around telling others that their religions are outdated and they are doomed to eventually merge into the new paradigm naturally creates resistance, and distance between the new religious group and the culture around it, so it ends up as a marginal cult. Bahais have done lots of that.

        The second problem is that it isn’t true. Just look at history. How many new world religions have emerged since the time of Krishna, yet there are many millions of followers of Krishna today? Of ancient religions, Hinduism and Buddhism have prospered, Zoroastrianism has almost died out, and Judaism has held its own and kept adapting. That's the pattern of world religious history: "This has been the way of God with those who have gone before: there is no alteration in the ways of God." (Quran 33:62, my translation)

        I do not think that Baha’u’llah ever envisioned or said anything so simple, and absurd, as Bahai replacing the other religions. His vision is of the evolution of a world religious system, as one organ in a World Order. We can compare it to the evolution of the world economic system, and the world political system.
        The evolution of a global religious system does not threaten the continuity of the constructive part of existing religions' activities or their institutions, whether clerical or lay. And so Baha'u'llah can be entirely sincere in revealing for us, a prayer to be said for the progress of Islam:

        He is God – Exalted be He, the Lord of Majesty and Power!

        I plead my grief and sorrow unto God, the Lord of all humankind. The affairs of men have been shaken, the nations have become perturbed and Islam has been weakened thereby. The enemies have afflicted it from all sides and it remains encompassed by them. Thus it behooveth the people of God to invoke Him in the morning and the night-season, to beseech Him to graciously aid the Muslims, one and all, to do that which is pleasing and seemly, to exalt them by His Command and through the power of His Sovereign Might, to make them aware of that which will exalt their stations, to change their abasement into might, their poverty into wealth, their destruction into advancement, their distress into peace of mind and their fear into security and tranquility. Verily, He is the All-Merciful. There is none other God but Him, the Compassionate, All-Bountiful.
        Last edited by Sen McGlinn; 06-17-2015, 05:29 AM. Reason: added "my translation"

        Comment


        • @Sen
          Thankyou for the prayer to the Ummah.

          Your choice of verse (33:62) in regards to the idea of human dignity is interesting. Indeed, human dignity and equality of worth is a right that God has given to every generation and every "way"/religion. The context of this particular verse refers to the dignity of women. (see 33:59) The Prophet(pbuh) said "Noble men treat women nobly: and contemptible men treat them contemptibly."
          Respect, dignity, reciprocity are values that must start with our families, then extend to our neighbors, our communities, to nations and finally to all humanity.

          Hadith Qudsi of the Prophet explains of God---
          "My love belongs by right to those who love one another in me, to those who sit together (in fellowship) in me, to those who visit one another in me, and to those who give generously to one another in me."

          ...This is not a message unique to Islam but is embedded in all traditions.....we need to dust it off and make it a reality....

          Comment


          • Pluralism....

            Comment


            • Originally posted by siam View Post
              ... (God's will=Right belief that promotes right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations.")...to implement this (to day and in future) will require much critical reflections and pragmatic solutions to problems facing us/humanity----but this should not be a onetime process rather an ongoing one that every generation must actively participate in....
              Thank you for your thoughts, siam. I especially appreciate the focus on cooperation in action for the common good. When you say that such flows initially from "right belief", I suppose you must mean a type of generic belief that is not specific to any one particular religion, creed, or confession, correct? Otherwise, it would not really be cooperative. Do I understand you correctly?
              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sen McGlinn View Post
                Indeed -- and I am sorry if you have encountered Bahai boosterism, or "triumphalism" to use the usual.

                Bahai belief in the unity of religion(s) rests not only on religion's common origin in the Absolute, and the transforming power that, at their best, religion(s) exhibit, but also in the idea that the religions have all pointed in one direction, and that the Bahai faith is "the next step." That linear element is a seductive invitation to triumphalism: the idea that the values and truths and community structures of the new religion make the others obsolete and they must fall away.

                The two big problems with triumphalism for Bahais are first that it is a self-defeating prophecy, because a new religious community that goes around telling others that their religions are outdated and they are doomed to eventually merge into the new paradigm naturally creates resistance, and distance between the new religious group and the culture around it, so it ends up as a marginal cult. Bahais have done lots of that.

                The second problem is that it isn’t true. Just look at history. How many new world religions have emerged since the time of Krishna, yet there are many millions of followers of Krishna today? Of ancient religions, Hinduism and Buddhism have prospered, Zoroastrianism has almost died out, and Judaism has held its own and kept adapting. That's the pattern of world religious history: "This has been the way of God with those who have gone before: there is no alteration in the ways of God." (Quran 33:62, my translation)

                I do not think that Baha’u’llah ever envisioned or said anything so simple, and absurd, as Bahai replacing the other religions. His vision is of the evolution of a world religious system, as one organ in a World Order. We can compare it to the evolution of the world economic system, and the world political system.
                The evolution of a global religious system does not threaten the continuity of the constructive part of existing religions' activities or their institutions, whether clerical or lay. And so Baha'u'llah can be entirely sincere in revealing for us, a prayer to be said for the progress of Islam:
                Thanks. Yeah, Baha'i Boosterism is sort of a strange term. I picked it up from my buddy pancreasman. For all I know, he just liked the alliteration. The few Baha'i I know, yourself included, do not lead me to believe that this is a characteristic common to Baha'i, so please, no need to apologize. I think the Baha'i tradition and philosophy is very attractive especially in its humility and openness to revelation and goodness from all quarters.
                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                Comment


                • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                  Thank you for your thoughts, siam. I especially appreciate the focus on cooperation in action for the common good. When you say that such flows initially from "right belief", I suppose you must mean a type of generic belief that is not specific to any one particular religion, creed, or confession, correct? Otherwise, it would not really be cooperative. Do I understand you correctly?

                  Depends on how one defines "generic" and "specific" here...In Islam, we believe that God is One, the creator of all creation---and thus also creator of all humanity. He sent Guidance to ALL humanity (not just the "Abrahamic" religions) throughout time. Not only that, this leaning towards Oneness/Unity is embedded in all our souls (which are all created by the same One God). So, this in essence means that the core "value" or principle of all religions as Oneness / Unity is universal(and specific). It is also a universal embedded in all humanity even those without "religion".
                  For example---Tawheed (Unity) means that there is only ONE God (power/force) in existence. The lesser principle stemming from this belief is the principle of equality(of worth) and unity(brotherhood) of all humanity. The lesser principle can be agreed on even by those who do not believe in God because we instinctively/intuitively understand its "truth".

                  Wrong belief is also specific, yet also universal---In Islam it is called "Shirk"(Division). If Unity (Tawheed) is the way towards balance, harmony and wholeness....Shirk is the way towards discord, conflict, enmity. It promotes supremacism in identity, egoism and attachment, arbitrary and inconsistent value systems. It is a paradigm based on Hierarchy. (not Unity)

                  Whatever religious/non-religious label we attach to ourselves---when we gravitate towards Unity we achieve good and when we gravitate towards division we promote conflict....

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by siam View Post
                    Depends on how one defines "generic" and "specific" here...In Islam, we believe that God is One, the creator of all creation---and thus also creator of all humanity. He sent Guidance to ALL humanity (not just the "Abrahamic" religions) throughout time. Not only that, this leaning towards Oneness/Unity is embedded in all our souls (which are all created by the same One God). So, this in essence means that the core "value" or principle of all religions as Oneness / Unity is universal(and specific). It is also a universal embedded in all humanity even those without "religion".
                    For example---Tawheed (Unity) means that there is only ONE God (power/force) in existence. The lesser principle stemming from this belief is the principle of equality(of worth) and unity(brotherhood) of all humanity. The lesser principle can be agreed on even by those who do not believe in God because we instinctively/intuitively understand its "truth".

                    Wrong belief is also specific, yet also universal---In Islam it is called "Shirk"(Division). If Unity (Tawheed) is the way towards balance, harmony and wholeness....Shirk is the way towards discord, conflict, enmity. It promotes supremacism in identity, egoism and attachment, arbitrary and inconsistent value systems. It is a paradigm based on Hierarchy. (not Unity)

                    Whatever religious/non-religious label we attach to ourselves---when we gravitate towards Unity we achieve good and when we gravitate towards division we promote conflict....
                    Very well put.
                    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                    Comment

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