The Buddha dies: NO problem/ Jesus dies: BIG problem

[Jin-Roh]

So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

What has been created will all pass away...including our physical bodies.

But is that according to Buddhism, Christianity, or Vivianism?

The Truth exists within each of us. Seek and ye shall find, knock and the door shall be opened unto you.

But Viv, you just proof-text when you quote scripture. If something that Jesus said (like using the word "I") doesn't vibrate you or whatever, you just change the meaning. Why do you think that your quoting scripture will have any persuasive power when you treat it so poorly?

vivian

[Cynic Sage]

Viv, before you start expactorating scripture like a Bible filled semi-truck crashing through a pot-parephenalia store, I reccomend you do some contextual study to find out what the people writing down the Bible thought about the stuff they was writing down,on what they thought on notions such as love, faith, hope, mercy, worship, humility, and repentance and other things such as atonement, and hell and general what have you. I am not sure that we are the ones who corrupt the scriptures here. We TRY to UNDERSTAND them as much as we can. I think critically because God gave me my gray-matter and if I do not use it I insult him.

Here's a rule of thumb I learned studying information design and how the mind uses information: You can make any text mean anything if you ignore context. In Romeo and Juliet, when Mercutio comments on Romeo's "french-slop" he is not reffering to some kind of stain with Paris origins on his clothes, because "french-slop" was a rennaisance term for sleepwear. The scene takes while Romeo is still in his pajamas. CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING!

If we have corrupted the scriptures, show us when, where, and how. And if we have corrupted the Bible, why do you quote from it to prove your point?


Vivian's "Truth" has the sweet flavor of Anti-freeze.

[Vivian]

Hi Jin-roh and Johnny,

I doubt if either of you have personally distorted scriptural understanding! I am speaking of the 1700 year old tradition that many of His sheep feed upon. And such distortions are not unique to Christianity. Any Light brought into this world is eventually overcome with darkness. We saw this with Judaism. And we can see it in the picture of the moon and how it's reflected light eventually wanes into darkness. Even with the sun, even though its light is forever present, the earth turns away from it in cycles that can be predicted, just as humanity turns away from the Light of Truth.

My background is probably similar to yours. I spent over a decade in Bible studies - CBS, BSF, NT and OT survey classes from a Christian University, etc etc and in these learned of the disparities in scriptural understanding among present day Christians. The disparities arose when we attempted to fit the details of scripture, related to a specific doctrine, into an overall picture that has as its source traditional understanding. Through the years these "differences" of opinion have become mostly acceptable.

I have come to know, though, that the problem comes not from the attempts to understand the details, but with the big picture they are being forced into.

If the bigger picture were founded on Truth, such differences would not exist, for there are no such disparities of understanding in Truth.

Consequently, the quotes from scripture that have been offered were done so to show how the actual details do not fit into the overall picture that is being presented. The verse So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. is from 2 Corinthians 4, a discussion by Paul of the dying outer physical body (jars of clay), and something different, something eternal, lasting, that exists within in it (the treasure).

1Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,”[a]made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

7But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this allsurpassing power is from God and not from us. 8We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair; 9persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed. 10We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. 11For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that his life may be revealed in our mortal body. 12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

13It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.”[b]With that same spirit of faith we also believe and therefore speak, 14because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in his presence. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.

16Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. 17For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. 18So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul speaks of the same - within the physical body is a the seed of our spiritual/transfigured body (the treasure) and the physical body will pass away as the perishible changes to the imperishable, just as a sees is transfigured into the mighty oak, or a mustard seed is transfomed into a large thriving plant. Paul talks similarly in Romans 7 speaking of 2 natures within him, the dying physical nature that adheres to the law of sin/karma and the inner seed treasure that follows the Law of God.


The other question is when Jesus speaks as "I". This is not as easy to see in scripture. I only saw after receiving the revelation that when we are One as Jesus prays for us in John 17 and speak of "I", we will be referring to God, for He is first person in Heaven. So when Jesus said "I" He was speaking out of His Oneness with the Father. When He spoke of His humanity, He referred to Himself as the son of man, in third person and not as "I", not in first person.

Self Investment in a belief system will prevent us from letting go and being in position to receive the Unifying Truth from God.

He cannot fill an already full cup.

We must be empty and naked, holding to nothing, like a child, and then it is through our open, pure, innocent heart that God can reveal His Truth.

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.

Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.


vivian

[Jin-Roh]

Hi Jin-roh and Johnny,

I doubt if either of you have personally distorted scriptural understanding! I am speaking of the 1700 year old tradition that many of His sheep feed upon. And such distortions are not unique to Christianity. Any Light brought into this world is eventually overcome with darkness. We saw this with Judaism. And we can see it in the picture of the moon and how it's reflected light eventually wanes into darkness. Even with the sun, even though its light is forever present, the earth turns away from it in cycles that can be predicted, just as humanity turns away from the Light of Truth.

So it truth according to Vivianism again then.

My background is probably similar to yours. I spent over a decade in Bible studies - CBS, BSF, NT and OT survey classes from a Christian University, etc etc and in these learned of the disparities in scriptural understanding among present day Christians.

Did you sleep through your classes in those 10 years or so? It doesn't seem like you learned a whole lot.

In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul speaks of the same - within the physical body is a the seed of our spiritual/transfigured body (the treasure) and the physical body will pass away as the perishible changes to the imperishable, just as a sees is transfigured into the mighty oak, or a mustard seed is transfomed into a large thriving plant. Paul talks similarly in Romans 7 speaking of 2 natures within him, the dying physical nature that adheres to the law of sin/karma and the inner seed treasure that follows the Law of God.

So you've read the whole chapter, and I'm assuming the proceeding one, and you still can't see how this is an overt proof text? How many layers of truth are you getting out of this one Viv?

The other question is when Jesus speaks as "I". This is not as easy to see in scripture. I only saw after receiving the revelation that when we are One as Jesus prays for us in John 17 and speak of "I", we will be referring to God, for He is first person in Heaven.

Viv, allow me to share my revelation with you.

So when Jesus said "I" He was speaking out of His Oneness with the Father.

Oh of course this makes sense. What you mean by "I" is actually "eye." When he is speaking out of his Oneness with the Father, he actually means that he sees that father wherever he goes. That's what you meant right Viv?

When He spoke of His humanity, He referred to Himself as the son of man, in third person and not as "I", not in first person.

So when he spoke of his pet dog named Humanity. He said that he was the sun of man. Jesus must've been a bright flashlight kind of person for his dog Humanity.

Self Investment in a belief system will prevent us from letting go and being in position to receive the Unifying Truth from God.

Okay, so I should take all the money I have Invested in any bank and such and let go of my current position as a Office Tech at school to get the unified truth of vivianism. You didn't mean for me to let go of the Christian Beliefs I already hold to did you Vivian? of course not. I had a revalation and you want me to crash my bank account and quit my job.

He cannot fill an already full cup.

Which is why I only drink from Bottles. See how prooftexting works viv?

vivian

[Vivian]

So it truth according to Vivianism again then.



Did you sleep through your classes in those 10 years or so? It doesn't seem like you learned a whole lot.



So you've read the whole chapter, and I'm assuming the proceeding one, and you still can't see how this is an overt proof text? How many layers of truth are you getting out of this one Viv?



Viv, allow me to share my revelation with you.



Oh of course this makes sense. What you mean by "I" is actually "eye." When he is speaking out of his Oneness with the Father, he actually means that he sees that father wherever he goes. That's what you meant right Viv?



So when he spoke of his pet dog named Humanity. He said that he was the sun of man. Jesus must've been a bright flashlight kind of person for his dog Humanity.



Okay, so I should take all the money I have Invested in any bank and such and let go of my current position as a Office Tech at school to get the unified truth of vivianism. You didn't mean for me to let go of the Christian Beliefs I already hold to did you Vivian? of course not. I had a revalation and you want me to crash my bank account and quit my job.



Which is why I only drink from Bottles. See how prooftexting works viv?

Oh jinroh! You made me laugh!

Was there a particular question you wanted to ask, perhaps regarding a previous chapter? Or were you just in the mood to be funny?


vivian

[Cynic Sage]

Oh jinroh! You made me laugh!

Was there a particular question you wanted to ask, perhaps regarding a previous chapter? Or were you just in the mood to be funny?


vivian

Now do you understand about proof-texting, and why it shouldn't be done?

[Vivian]

Now do you understand about proof-texting, and why it shouldn't be done?

Oh my!

Leave it to the human mind to complicate what is simple.

Are you so dull?


vivian

[Jin-Roh]

Isn't everyone dull vivian? I mean, when I look at my skin or the clothes I wear, they don't exactly shine like brass. Maybe our hair is a little shiny, but I think that most people are probably dull.

[Proteus]

If the bigger picture were founded on Truth, such differences would not exist, for there are no such disparities of understanding in Truth.

Truth? What is Truth? Jesus said, I AM THE TRUTH....

Consider the follow account of:

RZIM.org

Paul Tillich, the noted existentialist theologian, traveled to Asia to hold conferences with various Buddhist thinkers.

He was studying the significance of religious leaders to the movements they had engendered. Tillich asked a simple question.

"What if by some fluke, the Buddha had never lived and turned out to be some sort of fabrication? What would be the implications for Buddhism?"

Mind you, Tillich was concerned with the indispensability of the Buddha—not his authenticity.

The scholars did not hesitate to answer. If the Buddha was a myth, they said, it did not matter at all. Why? Because Buddhism should be judged as an abstract philosophy – as a system of living. Whether its concepts originated with the Buddha is irrelevant. (As an aside, I think that the Buddha himself would have concurred. Knowing that his death was imminent, he beseeched his followers not to focus on him but to remember his teachings. Not his life but his way of life was to be attended to and propagated.)

So, what of other world religions?

Hinduism, as a conglomeration of thinkers and philosophies and gods, can certainly do without many of its deities. Some other major religions face the same predicament.

Is Christianity similar?

Could God the Father have sent another instead of Jesus? May I say to you, and please hear me, that the answer is most categorically No. Jesus did not merely claim to be a prophet in a continuum of prophets. He is the unique Son of God, part of the very godhead that we call the Trinity. The apostle Paul says it this way:

Scripture Verse:

"[Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the originator of all creation. . . God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him." Jesus Himself prayed, "[Father], You have granted [me] authority over all people that [I] might give eternal life to all those you have given [me]. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." (John 17:2-3)

As many have observed, Christianity is Christ. Indeed Englishman John R.W. Stott writes, "If Jesus was not God in human flesh, Christianity is exploded. We are left with just another religion with some beautiful ideas and noble ethics; its unique distinction would then be gone."

Jesus is the Word and the incarnation.

By Ravi Zacharias

© source where applicable

[Jin-Roh]

Didn't Richbee post that exact same article ealier in this thread?

[Proteus]

Didn't Richbee post that exact same article ealier in this thread?

Note the refined and improved version.

[Jin-Roh]

Oh, well that makes the argument so much stronger

[Cynic Sage]

Oh my!

Leave it to the human mind to complicate what is simple.

Are you so dull?


vivian

And this justifies shutting your eyes, covering your ears, and singing "lalalalala" how?

[Vivian]

Truth? What is Truth? Jesus said, I AM THE TRUTH....

Consider the follow account of:

RZIM.org

Paul Tillich...

Jesus is the Word and the incarnation.

By Ravi Zacharias

© source where applicable

Yes. Jesus is the Word, the Incarnation, the Truth, the Way and the Life. He was no longer an individualized personality for his ego had long ago dissolved, but a manifestation in flesh of the Christ Spirit. His Consciousness was one with Christ and hence One with the Father.

The present religion of Christianity is a distorted dilution of the pure teachings of Jesus and now a tradition of man, just as the Jewish religion had become in the days of Jesus. All religions eventually stray from their original teachings once the bringer of Light passes on.

The world is darkness and hates the Light and so no Light can stay in this world without being contaminated. So just as we cannot look to modern day Buddhists to get an accurate representation of the teachings of Buddha, we cannot look at the present Christian religion to get an accurate represention of those of Jesus.


vivian

[SirKnight]

First of all to state a point. Christianity is different in the fact that God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son to atone our sins. And allow us passage to heaven. Buddah taught as several has no proof that he ever reached enlightment. He said not to make any images in me which means his teaching were the key. But his teachings hold no hope. His ultimate goal in life was to reach nirvana or non-existence. What kind of life is that in all that you live for is non-existence. If you thought non-existence was better than existence you would have shot yourself this morning. So obviously you see existing as an important role. Which means you are probably in the wrong religion. One more thing is that chistianity is built on the concept of love. And love never fails so it means nothing that buddah died. No one actually cares. But the fact the Jesus died allows us passage into heaven as long as we believe and that is a good enough reason for me to see the important enough reason that Jesus's death was important.

Thanks for taking the time to reading my reply and i cant wait to see what you have to say.