Announcement

Collapse

Theology 201 Guidelines

This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

The ten commandments and being saved

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Then like footwasher said, it is clear that you are ignoring the fact that they are part of the plant at first.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
      Then like footwasher said, it is clear that you are ignoring the fact that they are part of the plant at first.
      No I am not. Salvation is from the Jews. This imperfect metaphor Paul is using is to show the gentiles that even though they are not of the Jews, they still can enjoy the benefits of the promise given to the Jews. Earlier in the epistle, Paul had already made it clear that they were not pre-saved by being Jews, but they got "first dibs" by being Jews.

      Romans 1:16New American Standard Bible (NASB)

      16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
      That's what
      - She

      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
      - Stephen R. Donaldson

      Comment


      • So what does their attachment to the plant symbolize? And what does being broken off symbolize?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
          So what does their attachment to the plant symbolize? And what does being broken off symbolize?
          It means that they are inheritors of the promise made to Abraham. Broken off means that they are no longer inheritors of the promise.
          That's what
          - She

          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
          - Stephen R. Donaldson

          Comment


          • You're basically just typing truisms and generalities. Please specify: Are you saying that individual Jews (e.g., Pharisees) believed in Jesus and gained eternal life, and then stopped believing and lost eternal life? And are you saying that individual Romans got saved by believing, but that Paul was warning these individuals not to give up their salvation?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
              You're basically just typing truisms and generalities. Please specify: Are you saying that individual Jews (e.g., Pharisees) believed in Jesus and gained eternal life, and then stopped believing and lost eternal life? And are you saying that individual Romans got saved by believing, but that Paul was warning these individuals not to give up their salvation?
              You should actually read other people's posts instead of just skimming them and posting nonsense.

              The OT jews looked forward to a Messiah. Jesus is the Messiah.

              Romans was written to gentile Christian believers living in Rome, not all Romans.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                You're basically just typing truisms and generalities. Please specify: Are you saying that individual Jews (e.g., Pharisees) believed in Jesus and gained eternal life, and then stopped believing and lost eternal life?
                No. The Pharisees were Jews. Therefore, they were natural branches born into the promise to Abraham. Through their unbelief, they were broken off and cast away. The Gentiles, through their belief, were grafted into the promise to Abraham. It isn't salvation that is in view here, but inheritance rights.

                And are you saying that individual Romans got saved by believing, but that Paul was warning these individuals not to give up their salvation?
                No. He was warning them not to give up their promise of inheritance through unbelief.
                That's what
                - She

                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                - Stephen R. Donaldson

                Comment


                • No. He was warning them not to give up their promise of inheritance through unbelief.
                  Inheriting what, then?

                  Comment


                  • This is how we must follow the will of God, towards entering the kingdom of God as raised in Matt 7:13, the gate that leads to Life being narrow with only few finding it, because they don’t allow the word to take root.

                    We should take up our cross, because no one can be a disciple of God without taking up a cross and following Christ:

                    Matthew 10:38
                    Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

                    Luke 14:27
                    And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

                    1 Peter 2:21
                    To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps


                    Those who have done so will receive a hundred times that which they have given up in this age and in the age to come eternal life.

                    Mark 10:Peter began to say to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You."29Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel's sake, 30but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.…

                    Matthew 6:33
                    But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

                    Matthew 19:29
                    And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

                    Luke 18:29
                    "Truly I tell you," Jesus said to them, "no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God

                    Luke 12:32“Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom.
                    33“Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves money belts which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near nor moth destroys. 34“For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

                    That then is the call. However there is a stage before the call.

                    Believers are taken out of the control and influence of the world and placed in the control and influence of the church through baptism.

                    Romans 6:4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

                    Galatians 3:27“For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.”

                    1 John 3:2 - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

                    They are nurtured by drinking from the Rock and the Rock is Christ. This nurturing is in the form of tests so new believers should not be surprised at the trials they go through because God is showing them that He can be depended on to lead them into mastery of the Promised Land, just as He was able to take them out of the slavery of the world.

                    Acts 14:21After they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch, 22strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, "Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God." 23When they had appointed elders for them in every church, having prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed


                    Philippians 1:29
                    For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,

                    1 Thessalonians 3:3
                    so that no one would be unsettled by these trials. For you know quite well that we are destined for them.

                    2 Timothy 3:12
                    In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,

                    Romans 5:2
                    through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

                    Hebrews 12:11
                    No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

                    James 1:2
                    Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds,

                    1 Peter 3:17
                    For it is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

                    1 Peter 4:12
                    Dear friends, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come on you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you.

                    1 Peter 5:10
                    And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

                    Those who are entangled by the lure of their former life, and waste their time by murmuring instead of buying oil without money will fail the test when God calls, and find them not wearing wedding garments, lacking oil in their lamps, putting their hand to the plough share and then turning away, not crossing the Jordan.

                    Matthew 7:21
                    "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

                    Matthew 7:22
                    Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'

                    Matthew 25:1
                    "At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

                    Matthew 25:12
                    "But he replied, 'Truly I tell you, I don't know you.'

                    Luke 13:25
                    Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.' "But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'



                    Adequate warning is given. Whilst the challenger is far away, we must decide if we have enough faith to take up our cross. No one sets out to battle ill prepared.No one starts building without enough money. If we feel our faith is inadequate to take up the cross, we must ask for terms of peace. Instead of gathering, we can support those who gather, using unrighteous Mammon to make friends. Then we will be welcomed into eternal shelters when our worldly resources run out. Shrewd believers will emulate the practical unbelievers of this world by making friends with those in the kingdom through supporting them

                    Luke 16:4
                    I know what I'll do so that, when I lose my job here, people will welcome me into their houses.'

                    When God calls today, do not be disobedient like the children of Israel, with whom He was not pleased, and swore that they would not enter his rest, and were set up to leave their bones in the desert:

                    Acts 5:…7Now there elapsed an interval of about three hours, and his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8And Peter responded to her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for such and such a price?" And she said, "Yes, that was the price."9Then Peter said to her, "Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well."
                    Last edited by footwasher; 12-20-2014, 03:13 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                      Inheriting what, then?
                      The right to be called God's chosen people.
                      That's what
                      - She

                      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                      - Stephen R. Donaldson

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by IwreckNsow View Post
                        Must you observe to keep the 10 commandments {including the sabbath} in order to be saved to the kingdom?
                        Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

                        There is a difference between being declared justified/righteous and living righteously in that people who are declared righteous are then obligated to live righteously. The Torah is God's instructions for how man can live righteously. So you are saved by grace through faith, but people who are justified are then obligated to live righteously by doing good works, which God has prepared in advance and instructed in the Torah, which includes the Ten Commandments.
                        "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

                        Comment


                        • The two ways of being found acceptable by God

                          Through the law
                          Through grace

                          Through law, which could only reveal sin, leading to remorse, which the simple publican in the Temple felt. The educated Pharisee left out all the weightier issues of the Law and never felt remorse. Brokenness and humility made the former acceptable by God.

                          Through grace, which could not only make us acceptable before God but also justify, make us recipients of the promise to Abraham, make us the instruments through which the world could be blessed.


                          Don’t forget, Arminian in his articles in Roman's Clearinghouse stressed that OT believers were saved, but they could not be recipients of the promise made to Abraham. Christ came so that through the giving of the Spirit the promise to Abraham could be fulfilled (Galatians 3:14).


                          Now that I am found acceptable by grace I have no place for Law, which is good only for the sinner:

                          1 Timothy 1: 8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

                          I am now living not my life, but the life of Christ.

                          Galatians 2: 20“I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

                          If I promote Law Keeping, then I am still ignorant, promoting a useless method for the justified, useful only for the sinner:

                          Galatians 2:18“For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor.

                          I reiterate:

                          The law is for sinners to be followed in all aspects, the minor as well as the weightier points. To bring to brokenness, and finding acceptability in God's sight, through seeking Him out:


                          Acts 17:24“The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’


                          Grace through faith is for those who have entered the Kingdom, summed up by not being tied down to a rigid list but by being loyal to Christ in all our actions in situations that may arise whether in being impartial to both rich and poor or doing good works to the widow as well as to the orphan, by which we will be used by God, when we enter His rest:

                          Hebrews 4:0For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
                          Last edited by footwasher; 12-24-2014, 04:58 AM.

                          Comment


                          • Now that I am found acceptable by grace I have no place for Law, which is good only for the sinner:
                            The law is how we know what sin is and sin is defined as breaking the law:

                            Romans 7:7a What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law.

                            1 John 3:4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.

                            If Paul had thought that being under grace meant that we don't have to pay attention to the law, then he would have said that we were free to sin, but he emphatically said that opposite:

                            Romans 6:15-19 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves,[c] you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

                            Instead we are to make ourselves as slaves who are obedient to the law, which leads to righteousness an sanctification. Being under grace refers to the fact that Jesus paid the penalty for our sins/transgression of the law, so we are not under its penalty, but that didn't mean that we're not supposed to make ourselves obedient to it. Afterall, it is still God's instructions for how to live righteously and to demonstrate our love to Him. There will be two judgements, one according to whether we are justified and one according to what we've done in obedience to God's instructions:

                            2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

                            1 Timothy 1: 8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.
                            God said that if we love Him, then we should obey His commands and love seeks to go the extra mile. Instructions for how to live righteously do not need to be given to those who are living righteously because they are already meeting or exceeding those instructions, but rather they need to be given to those who are living unrighteously.

                            Galatians 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

                            Similarly, if you were under a tutor and have reached the point where you no longer need them, does that mean that you are now to disregard everything they taught you? Or do you no longer need the tutor because everything they taught you is now second nature and you are now able to meet or exceed their instructions without being told what to do? A tutor is not for an expert, but for someone who still needs to learn how they should act.

                            If you think about it, how does it even make sense for those who are living unrighteously to need instructions for how to live righteously while those who are righteous have no place for living righteously? Is it not even more important for those who have confessed Jesus as Lord to live righteously? Are we not, according to Ephesians 2:8-10 new creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works? Is the law not God's instructions for how to do good works?

                            If I promote Law Keeping, then I am still ignorant, promoting a useless method for the justified, useful only for the sinner:

                            Galatians 2:18“For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor.
                            How we are justified is a different matter than how the justified should act. I have no disagreement with you about the method of justification being by grace through faith, but rather my point is that those who are declared justified are called to live righteously. Paul was not saying in Romans 6:15-19 that we were free to break the law or that we were to sit back and not do anything, but rather that we are set free from sin to become obedient slaves, which leads to righteous living, which is done by following God's instructions for how to do that in the Torah. Paul didn't say that we nullify the law through faith, but that we uphold it.

                            The law is for sinners to be followed in all aspects, the minor as well as the weightier points. To bring to brokenness, and finding acceptability in God's sight, through seeking Him out:
                            The law was never given by God as instructions for how people could become righteous through our own efforts, but rather it has given as instructions for how people can live righteously. Our inability to live righteously indeed points to our need for Christ, but not so that we can no longer be concerned with living righteously, but so that we can be enabled to do so.
                            Last edited by Soyeong; 12-24-2014, 01:02 PM.
                            "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

                            Comment


                            • We must be careful how Paul uses the word "law". In some passages it is used to mean "works of the law" a subset of the 613 precepts chosen as halakah, mandatory, to identify those who were "clean" not committing an infraction. Some were confused whether it still applied to those Gentiles who became Christians, whether they still had to become Jews first and the judaisers tried to impose circumcision and other customs that identified Jews on these converts. Paul was adamant that the only requirement was faith.

                              The term could also be used to mean the code that a particular group of gentiles chose to regulate the society they lived in and Paul was clear that those who were abiding by those laws were meeting the standard God required of them, were equivalent to those Jews who considered all the 613 precepts as mandatory for Israel, as applicable, since some precepts were only for priests, etc.

                              The third way it could be used was to indicate the new requirement under the covenant Jesus introduced, faith, loyalty. To be faithful was to act in a way that was not against Christ. The unmerciful steward never broke a law set down in a rigid list, but was acting against the spirit of the King's rule, His way of doing things. In that respect his act was breaking the law, even seditious, treason. The reason it was called the law of liberty was that it did not impose a daily requirement, since you could go through a day without meeting any person, and therefore would not have to think about how you would regulate your action, a heavy burden that observant Jews could not avoid.

                              Therefore, in this third situation, law meant acting faithfully, loyally, leading to receiving all the benefits that the covenant of grace provided. The covenant of Law provided observant Jews with protection, the law was a guardian (pedagogues were babysitters, not tutors, responsible for ensuring the child reached school safely) and Moses face shone when the law was read. However he veiled his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the glory of the covenant of Law fade away. He couldn't reveal that it was a fading glory since Israel needed all the encouragement she could get in the empty desert since the next leader God sent, who would be like Moses, whose covenant was a superior one, with better benefits, had not yet come.

                              Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
                              The law is how we know what sin is and sin is defined as breaking the law:

                              Romans 7:7a What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law.

                              Here Paul is talking about the civil code.
                              1 John 3:4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.
                              Here John had the law of liberty and love in mind, disloyalty to Christ, not having His word abide in them.

                              1 John 2:24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

                              In other words, if you are "clean", you are not cut off, can remain in the camp of the Israel of God.


                              John 6:56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

                              John 14:23Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

                              John 15:3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8“My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9“Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

                              John 17: 22“The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. 24“Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

                              If Paul had thought that being under grace meant that we don't have to pay attention to the law, then he would have said that we were free to sin, but he emphatically said that opposite:

                              Romans 6:15-19 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves,[c] you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
                              Here Paul is talking about how freedom from the old covenant does not just mean the availability of freedom from obligations but also the availability of and ability to serving Christ.

                              Setting it out like this:

                              Old Covenant
                              1 Become Jews, follow Moses out of Egypt>baptism into God's separated people, the eklesia, through the water and the cloud, with access to water from the Rock and bread that God gave, towards pleasing God, leading to rest from enemies and wandering, for the believing.
                              2 In the Promised Land, follow works of the law> not justified.
                              3 Follow ALL the Law, lesser as well as the weightier aspects>found righteous, through brokenness, humility, like the publican, Zecharias and Elizabeth.
                              4 Even when found righteous, still unable to live, have eternal life, be a blessing to the world, through the inability of the law to justify, because of the weakness of the flesh, requiring the Anointed One, spoken of by Moses, to save His people from their sins.

                              New Covenant
                              1 Become Christian, follow Christ out of the world>baptism into the Body of Christ, through the water and the Holy Spirit.
                              2 Freed from the COVENANT of the law, through the fulfilling of THAT covenant by Christ, through His death>found righteous
                              3 Faithful, being loyal to Christ>justified
                              4 Living in Christ>freed from the weakness of the flesh, able to follow the Royal Law of Liberty and Love.

                              Instead we are to make ourselves as slaves who are obedient to the law, which leads to righteousness and sanctification. Being under grace refers to the fact that Jesus paid the penalty for our sins/transgression of the law, so we are not under its penalty, but that didn't mean that we're not supposed to make ourselves obedient to it. Afterall, it is still God's instructions for how to live righteously and to demonstrate our love to Him. There will be two judgements, one according to whether we are justified and one according to what we've done in obedience to God's instructions:

                              2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

                              We are freed from the OLD Covenant, with its heavier burden and lesser glory. Its foolish to revert to it as Paul taught, because in doing so you reject the new: you can't accept two contracts, Christ will be of no benefit to you.

                              God said that if we love Him, then we should obey His commands and love seeks to go the extra mile. Instructions for how to live righteously do not need to be given to those who are living righteously because they are already meeting or exceeding those instructions, but rather they need to be given to those who are living unrighteously.

                              Galatians 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

                              The Covenant of Law is given to all men, Torah to the Jews, codes to the Gentiles. All men are unrighteous by birth. Those in Christ are new, found righteous. There is no transgression where there is no law.

                              Similarly, if you were under a tutor and have reached the point where you no longer need them, does that mean that you are now to disregard everything they taught you? Or do you no longer need the tutor because everything they taught you is now second nature and you are now able to meet or exceed their instructions without being told what to do? A tutor is not for an expert, but for someone who still needs to learn how they should act.

                              If you think about it, how does it even make sense for those who are living unrighteously to need instructions for how to live righteously while those who are righteous have no place for living righteously? Is it not even more important for those who have confessed Jesus as Lord to live righteously? Are we not, according to Ephesians 2:8-10 new creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works? Is the law not God's instructions for how to do good works?

                              How we are justified is a different matter than how the justified should act. I have no disagreement with you about the method of justification being by grace through faith, but rather my point is that those who are declared justified are called to live righteously. Paul was not saying in Romans 6:15-19 that we were free to break the law or that we were to sit back and not do anything, but rather that we are set free from sin to become obedient slaves, which leads to righteous living, which is done by following God's instructions for how to do that in the Torah. Paul didn't say that we nullify the law through faith, but that we uphold it.

                              The law was never given by God as instructions for how people could become righteous through our own efforts, but rather it has given as instructions for how people can live righteously. Our inability to live righteously indeed points to our need for Christ, but not so that we can no longer be concerned with living righteously, but so that we can be enabled to do so.

                              See above.

                              Be careful with your categories. Try to avoid mixing them. I find it helpful to set out the situations presented. What happens when a person signs a contract? What does he have to pay? What does he receive?

                              My pastor was commenting on how the mood was so serious this Christmas, in the light of world events. Still, we can rejoice at the thought of our possession of the gift God gave us in Christ, and how we can pass on that gift to our friends! Happy Christmas!
                              Last edited by footwasher; 12-24-2014, 07:14 PM.

                              Comment


                              • We must be careful how Paul uses the word "law". In some passages it is used to mean "works of the law" a subset of the 613 precepts chosen as halakah, mandatory, to identify those who were "clean" not committing an infraction. Some were confused whether it still applied to those Gentiles who became Christians, whether they still had to become Jews first and the judaisers tried to impose circumcision and other customs that identified Jews on these converts. Paul was adamant that the only requirement was faith.

                                The term could also be used to mean the code that a particular group of gentiles chose to regulate the society they lived in and Paul was clear that those who were abiding by those laws were meeting the standard God required of them, were equivalent to those Jews who considered all the 613 precepts as mandatory for Israel, as applicable, since some precepts were only for priests, etc.

                                The third way it could be used was to indicate the new requirement under the covenant Jesus introduced, faith, loyalty. To be faithful was to act in a way that was not against Christ. The unmerciful steward never broke a law set down in a rigid list, but was acting against the spirit of the King's rule, His way of doing things. In that respect his act was breaking the law, even seditious, treason. The reason it was called the law of liberty was that it did not impose a daily requirement, since you could go through a day without meeting any person, and therefore would not have to think about how you would regulate your action, a heavy burden that observant Jews could not avoid.

                                Therefore, in this third situation, law meant acting faithfully, loyally, leading to receiving all the benefits that the covenant of grace provided. The covenant of Law provided observant Jews with protection, the law was a guardian (pedagogues were babysitters, not tutors, responsible for ensuring the child reached school safely) and Moses face shone when the law was read. However he veiled his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the glory of the covenant of Law fade away. He couldn't reveal that it was a fading glory since Israel needed all the encouragement she could get in the empty desert since the next leader God sent, who would be like Moses, whose covenant was a superior one, with better benefits, had not yet come.
                                A lot of the discussion about the law in the Bible has to do with a particular way in which it is followed. A rabbi or group had oral laws consisting of interpretations, customs, traditions, rulings, and fences that governed the way that they thought the the written law of the Torah should be correctly understood and followed. This is what is encompassed by the phrase "works of the law" so the Pharisees, Judaizers, Jesus, Paul, etc., all had their works of the law. The rabbinic phrase "to fulfill the law" means to interpret it in such a way that filled it up with meaning, added to its meaning, or showed how God meant it to be understood. So when Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, he was saying that he came to give us a correct or complete understanding for how to follow the Torah, and this was his works of the law, also known as the law of Christ.

                                One the main problems Paul had was with the circumcision group, who wanted to say that you had to follow their works of the law and follow the Torah in the way they said in order to be saved. Paul upheld the Torah, so he never taught against keeping it, but rather what he opposed was their way of keeping the Torah and the idea that you could be justified by keeping it - that was not the reason why it was given. The problem was faithless works and the solution was not to stop doing good works, but to start doing them in the right way.

                                Romans 9:30-32a What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness[d] did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works.

                                The problem here was not with pursuing the law, but with pursuing it in the wrong way.

                                Here Paul is talking about the civil code.

                                Originally posted by Soyeong
                                1 John 3:4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.
                                Here John had the law of liberty and love in mind, disloyalty to Christ, not having His word abide in them.
                                If you asked any Jew what sin was, they would say breaking the Laws of Moses, so I see no good reason to think that they were talking about anything else. God did not give the law to be a burden, but to be a delight. Any discussion of the law in the Psalms will confirm that, especially 119.

                                Psalms 1:1-2 Blessed is the man[a]
                                who walks not in the counsel of the wicked,
                                nor stands in the way of sinners,
                                nor sits in the seat of scoffers;
                                2 but his delight is in the law[b] of the Lord,
                                and on his law he meditates day and night.

                                Psalms 119:45 I will walk about in freedom, for I have sought out your precepts.

                                So the law of liberty just is the Torah rightly understood. However, by the time of Jesus, mountains of man-made oral law had turned what was supposed to be a delight into a heavy burden and many kept the law in an effort to become justified rather than out of faith and love. Jesus came to restore us to the right way of keeping the Torah and one of his biggest sources of conflict with the Pharisees was when they gave their own traditions a higher priority than the Torah:

                                And he said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written,

                                Mark 7:6-8 “‘This people honors me with their lips,
                                but their heart is far from me;
                                7 in vain do they worship me,
                                teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
                                8 You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.”

                                1 John 2:24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

                                In other words, if you are "clean", you are not cut off, can remain in the camp of the Israel of God.

                                John 6:56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

                                John 14:23Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

                                John 15:3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8“My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9“Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

                                John 17: 22“The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. 24“Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
                                Good verses, though I'm not sure why you're citing them.

                                Here Paul is talking about how freedom from the old covenant does not just mean the availability of freedom from obligations but also the availability of and ability to serving Christ.

                                Setting it out like this:

                                Old Covenant
                                1 Become Jews, follow Moses out of Egypt>baptism into God's separated people, the eklesia, through the water and the cloud, with access to water from the Rock and bread that God gave, towards pleasing God, leading to rest from enemies and wandering, for the believing.
                                2 In the Promised Land, follow works of the law> not justified.
                                3 Follow ALL the Law, lesser as well as the weightier aspects>found righteous, through brokenness, humility, like the publican, Zecharias and Elizabeth.
                                4 Even when found righteous, still unable to live, have eternal life, be a blessing to the world, through the inability of the law to justify, because of the weakness of the flesh, requiring the Anointed One, spoken of by Moses, to save His people from their sins.

                                New Covenant
                                1 Become Christian, follow Christ out of the world>baptism into the Body of Christ, through the water and the Holy Spirit.
                                2 Freed from the COVENANT of the law, through the fulfilling of THAT covenant by Christ, through His death>found righteous
                                3 Faithful, being loyal to Christ>justified
                                4 Living in Christ>freed from the weakness of the flesh, able to follow the Royal Law of Liberty and Love.
                                Abraham was justified by faith just like everyone else:

                                Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”

                                The main differences between covenants are the means of atonement, the power of that atonement, the priesthood which offers the sacrifice, the Temple in which the sacrifice is offered, and its availability to everyone. The "New Testament" is properly translated as the "Renewed Covenant" and it involves the law being written on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:31-34).

                                We are freed from the OLD Covenant, with its heavier burden and lesser glory. Its foolish to revert to it as Paul taught, because in doing so you reject the new: you can't accept two contracts, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
                                Galatians 3:17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.

                                All of the previous covenants were cumulative and the Renewed Covenant is no different. God's laws remain God's laws regardless of any particular covenant to follow them. Laws, such as the Sabbath were given before the law was given at Mt. Sinai, so even if the Old Covenant were annulled, it wouldn't follow that it was no longer necessary to keep it. And even then God's laws still remain instructions for how man can live righteously and demonstrate our love to Him if we so choose, which I see no good reason for why that's something we shouldn't want to do regardless of any particular covenant.

                                The Covenant of Law is given to all men, Torah to the Jews, codes to the Gentiles. All men are unrighteous by birth. Those in Christ are new, found righteous. There is no transgression where there is no law.
                                If there is no law and no transgression of the law, then it would be impossible for us to sin. We would be free to do whatever we wanted, but Paul said the exact opposite, that we weren't to sin, and to sinning was understood by him, like every other Jew, as breaking the Laws of Moses. When we are found to be righteous, that means that we are called to live righteously, which means following God's instructions for how to do that in the Torah. All of the Renewed Covenant authors remained Torah compliant and none of them taught against keeping it. The early Gentiles were also Torah compliant.

                                Happy Christmas!

                                EDIT:

                                1 Become Christian, follow Christ out of the world>baptism into the Body of Christ, through the water and the Holy Spirit.
                                Jesus did not come to start a new religion, but rather he was born a Jew, became a Jewish rabbi, had Jewish disciples, came as the Jewish Messiah in fulfillment of Jewish prophecy, and all believers up though Acts 10 were Jews. Christianity is the true form of Judaism and Gentiles are grafted into a Jewish religion. None of them gave up their Jewish identities and Paul still identified as a Pharisee in Acts 23:6.
                                Last edited by Soyeong; 12-24-2014, 11:41 PM.
                                "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

                                Comment

                                widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
                                Working...
                                X