The ten commandments and being saved

[footwasher]

Android IS a bit tipsy... often the option to paste disappears until you type something, select it and then try paste by long press on the phone screen. The tttt disappears to the end of the post whilst the pasted material lands in the beginning of the post. By the time you notice, the option to edit has disappeared. Aaaah, First World problems...

Hey I'm attacking Free Grace theology too, specifically the doctrine of "rewards"! Nobody is safe!

[Bill the Cat]

This then is what unfolded:

False prophet is baptized

No.

Is in Christ

No

Christ knows him

No

Works miracles

Yes

Apostatizes (remember, he is in Christ)

No

Christ un "likes" him...(revokes his "knowing")

No

Are we good so far?

No. You are meshing the two separate scenarios.

Scenario 1) Those who cry Lord, Lord

• False prophet believes in false doctrines about Jesus (such as those in 1 John 4:3)
  False prophet claims to be a Christian
  False prophet unknowingly (in these cases) works miracles through the power of the enemy
  False prophet dies
  False prophet claims their works were proof of their being a Christian
  Jesus says that He never knew them at all

Scenario 2) Those who apostatize

• Unbeliever hears the message of salvation and believes
  Unbeliever becomes a believer
  Believer is now "In Christ" and "known by Christ"
  Believer gets deceived by the man of sin (satan)
  Believer chooses to reject Christ and follow man of sin
  Believer apostatizes
  Believer is now an apostate, unable to repent again unto salvation
  Christ once knew the apostate, but has been fully and finally rejected by the apostate

[footwasher]

No. You are meshing the two separate scenarios.

Scenario 1) Those who cry Lord, Lord

False prophet believes in false doctrines about Jesus (such as those in 1 John 4:3)
False prophet claims to be a Christian
False prophet unknowingly (in these cases) works miracles through the power of the enemy
False prophet dies
False prophet claims their works were proof of their being a Christian
Jesus says that He never knew them at all


Scenario 2) Those who apostatize
Unbeliever hears the message of salvation and believes
Unbeliever becomes a believer
Believer is now "In Christ" and "known by Christ"
Believer gets deceived by the man of sin (satan)
Believer chooses to reject Christ and follow man of sin
Believer apostatizes
Believer is now an apostate, unable to repent again unto salvation
Christ once knew the apostate, but has been fully and finally rejected by the apostate



This is what then happened:

Scenario 1) Those who cry Lord, Lord

• False prophet believes in false doctrines about Jesus (such as those in 1 John 4:3) was a docetist, believed matter was evil, and therefore Christ was only a spiritual being, but was very likely, baptised (everybody was getting baptised, including Simon the Sorcerer, baptism was in addition to belief in Christ for salvation, making them “in Christ”)
• False prophet claims to be a Christian ( I would, following baptism)
• False prophet unknowingly (in these cases) works miracles through the power of the enemy (even Judas worked miracles, together with the seventy two)
• False prophet dies (nobody dodges THAT bullet)
• False prophet claims their works were proof of their being a Christian (understandably so)
• Jesus says that He never knew them at all (strange: the false prophets had truckloads of faith, the only quality that people claim to be necessary for salvation and Christ still rejects them… hmmm).

[Bill the Cat]

I'm having problems following your posts, so if I miss something, please point it out.. Thanks

Scenario 1) Those who cry Lord, Lord
[*]False prophet believes in false doctrines about Jesus (such as those in 1 John 4:3) was a docetist, believed matter was evil, and therefore Christ was only a spiritual being, but was very likely, baptised (everybody was getting baptised, including Simon the Sorcerer, baptism was in addition to belief in Christ for salvation, making them “in Christ”)

The difference is that what they believed in was not the real Christ, but was one of their own making. So, all they really did was got wet.

[*]False prophet claims to be a Christian ( I would, following baptism)

That's where faith in the true Christ is important. False doctrines about who Jesus is are absolute deal breakers because they turn the object of faith from Jesus to the deceived person's idea of Jesus.

[*]False prophet unknowingly (in these cases) works miracles through the power of the enemy (even Judas worked miracles, together with the seventy two)

I believe Judas was saved and then apostatized.

[*]False prophet dies (nobody dodges THAT bullet)

True

[*]False prophet claims their works were proof of their being a Christian (understandably so)

Because they think that works are what saves them. But this shows that performing miracles in His name does not mean that they were His sheep.

[*]Jesus says that He never knew them at all (strange: the false prophets had truckloads of faith,

Faith in the wrong thing doesn't save any more than works dedicated to the wrong thing does (i.e. Mormons and JWs)

the only quality that people claim to be necessary for salvation and Christ still rejects them… hmmm).

Faith in the true Christ of God is what is necessary, not just faith.

[footwasher]

I'm having problems following your posts, so if I miss something, please point it out.. Thanks

No problem, I dont have high expectations of people, so needing to understand correctly isn’t a requirement in my book to have righteousness reputed to them by me.

The difference is that what they believed in was not the real Christ, but was one of their own making. So, all they really did was got wet.

That's a pretty big ask for salvation, don't you think, to have the right doctrinal knowledge of the nature of the Incarnation?

That's where faith in the true Christ is important. False doctrines about who Jesus is are absolute deal breakers because they turn the object of faith from Jesus to the deceived person's idea of Jesus.

I believe false knowledge of why Jesus came is the real deal breaker.

False prophet unknowingly (in these cases) works miracles through the power of the enemy (even Judas worked miracles, together with the seventy two)

I believe Judas was saved and then apostatized.

The point is that working miracles by false prophets can still be through the power of God and not Beelzebub:

Mark 9:38John said to Him, "Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us." 39But Jesus said, "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me.40"For he who is not against us is for us.…


True

One out of six isn’t too shabby...YES!

Because they think that works are what saves them. But this shows that performing miracles in His name does not mean that they were His sheep.

What does save?

Faith in the wrong thing doesn't save any more than works dedicated to the wrong thing does (i.e. Mormons and JWs)

So what does?

Faith in the true Christ of God is what is necessary, not just faith.

But the passage teaches doing the correct works, what Jesus taught, what the Father in who is in Heaven wills, is what tips the scale:

Matthew 7:21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

'Scusi, gotta run... some real work pending. I'll be back... in a coupla hours.

[Bill the Cat]

No problem, I dont have high expectations of people, so needing to understand correctly isn’t a requirement in my book to have righteousness reputed to them by me.

I meant your not using the quote tags.

That's a pretty big ask for salvation, don't you think, to have the right doctrinal knowledge of the nature of the Incarnation?

Not really. Jesus is the eternal Son of God, second member of the Trinity, born of the Virgin Mary as a full human, lived a sinless life, suffered and died under Pontius Pilate at the behest of the Jewish leaders, raised from the dead on the third day, ascended to heaven after 40 days, and will return again to judge the living and the dead. While there are intricacies in each of those clauses, their basic premises are pretty clearly spelled out in scripture. Denying any of them is denying who He is and what He did.

I believe false knowledge of why Jesus came is the real deal breaker.

He came to save us from our sins and to reconcile God and man.

The point is that working miracles by false prophets can still be through the power of God and not Beelzebub:

Mark 9:38John said to Him, "Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us." 39But Jesus said, "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me.40"For he who is not against us is for us.…

This isn't a false prophet. It's about a fellow Christian who was not directly under the authority of the 12

What does save?

Faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ as revealed by scripture. Who He is and What He did for us.

But the passage teaches doing the correct works, what Jesus taught, what the Father in who is in Heaven wills, is what tips the scale:

Matthew 7:21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

You seem to be missing that the reason Jesus gave them as to why their works were not salvific was that He never knew them, not that their works in His name weren't good enough.

[Obsidian]

In answer to the earlier question about John 15, I think that the "branches" may refer to churches formed by the apostles, rather than to the apostles individually.

Romans 11
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 for if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

And I think that this passage is talking about the future apostacy of the Roman church, rather than the apostacy of individual Jews or Romans.

[footwasher]

This is the will of God, towards entering the kingdom of God as raised in Matt 7:13, the gate that leads to Life being narrow and only few find it:

No one can be a disciple of God without taking up a cross and following Christ

To those who have done so will receive a hundred times that which they have given up in this age and in the age to come eternal life.

Shrewd believers will emulate the practical unbelievers of this world by making friends with those in the kingdom through supporting them.

Believers are taken out of the domain of the world and placed in the domain of the church through baptism.

They are nurtured by drinking from the Rock and the Rock is Christ.

This nurturing is in the form of tests so new believers should not be surprised at the trials they go through because God is showing them that He can be depended on to lead them into mastery of the Promised Land, just as He was able to take them out of the slavery of the world.

Those who are entangled by the lure of their former life, and waste their time by murmuring instead of buying milk without money will fail the test when God calls, and find them not wearing wedding garments, lacking oil in their lamps, putting their hand to the plough share and then turning away, not crossing the Jordan.

Adequate warning is given. Whilst the challenger is far away, we must decide if we have enough faith to take up our cross. No one sets out to battle ill prepared.No one starts building without enough money. If we feel our faith is inadequate to take up the cross, we must ask for terms of peace. Instead of gathering, we can support those who gather, using unrighteous Mammon to make friends. Then we will be welcomed into eternal shelters when our worldly resources run out.

When God calls today, do not be disobedient like the children of Israel, with whom He was not pleased, and swore that they would not enter his rest, and were set up to leave their bones in the desert.

[Obsidian]

Actually, the gate that leads to life is probably the same thing that Jesus says everyone who asks will receive.

Matthew 7
6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. . . . 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Revelation 21
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

Revelation 22
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

[footwasher]

What the false prophets failed to do, enter the narrow gate:

Matthew 7: 13“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14“For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

15“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.16“You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17“So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18“A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20“So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNES


What the rich young ruler failed to do:

Matthew 19:3And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24“Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?” 26And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

[Bill the Cat]

In answer to the earlier question about John 15, I think that the "branches" may refer to churches formed by the apostles, rather than to the apostles individually.

Romans 11
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 for if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

And I think that this passage is talking about the future apostacy of the Roman church, rather than the apostacy of individual Jews or Romans.

It's talking about the gentiles being not native born Israel, yet being grafted into Christ despite not being the natural lineage of promise. It has nothing to do with Rome

[Obsidian]

Romans 1
7 to all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

[Bill the Cat]

Romans 1
7 to all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

It's a letter to the church in Rome when Paul was ministering, not the future Roman Catholic church. it was comprised of both Jew and gentile, and this section was speaking to the gentiles who were not natural Jews, but were inheritors of the promise given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It has nothing to do with apostasy/

[Obsidian]

What do you think the branches being broken off refers to — that the Pharisees used to believe in Jesus but then stopped, and that the individual Romans currently believe but may stop? It's referring to groups over time, not individuals.

[Bill the Cat]

What do you think the branches being broken off refers to

The natural branches being broken shows individual Jews who rejected God's promise of Messiah. The threat of the wild ones being broken off after being grafted in refers to the same ability for them to apostatize. It's individuals.

— that the Pharisees used to believe in Jesus but then stopped,

No. Jesus makes it clear that they were never children of Abraham, they were children of the devil. Therefore they were never in Him for them to have been broken off.

and that the individual Romans currently believe but may stop?

Exactly

It's referring to groups over time, not individuals.

No it doesn't.